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Author Topic: P30+ or H2CF22  (Read 10619 times)
tomob
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« Reply #20 on: December 07, 2006, 05:19:08 PM »
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Thanks, for everything,

here just one of my photo, would like to hear from you what  format is it from?

Regards,

Tomo
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eronald
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« Reply #21 on: December 07, 2006, 06:18:51 PM »
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No. a lomo has a smaller recording area and therefore more DOF for a given angle of view and aperture

Doesnt mean he couldnt have taken  a nice picture - but it would have been a different picture
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I meant theHolga (6x6). Sorry

Edmund
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James Russell
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« Reply #22 on: December 07, 2006, 10:33:50 PM »
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Nice illustration James - what is you opinion

S
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My personal opinion is between the A-22/75/P45/CFwhatever sized frame to the A-65, P-30 sized frame I don't see that much of a difference in the Contax.  Maybe when I go side by side, but I never shoot that way so I find I just adjust, the same way as when I put those crop screens in the Canons . . . I just adjust.

What I do see a difference between the DB and the Canons is the the file quality, whether that is size, or bit depth, I don't know why there is a difference, but I do know if I work a file hard the digital backs usually allow me to move the file around with more depth and a better result.

The Canon's are good though, but they're different cameras than the digital backs.

I do a lot of thethering to a powerbook and the Aptus 22 with V-8 which is the world champ at speed and stability.

I also do a lot of post processing and C-1 wins hands down as it's stable and what you set in the software while shooting, directly translates to the final output.

For the Leaf files the best processing I've seen is through lightroom, but unfortunatley as of today, only the expsoure really translates to the deafult settings of Lightroom, so whatever I set up in V-8 and shoot to, I have to redo when I get to the third party software.

Right now for me and my business a professional on set workflow is as important as the file quality, because all of these files can be moved around.

IMO with Leaf, V-8 is rock stable and fast and LC10 is still a work in progress.

The second most important function of any of these cameras to me is time in post production and workflow.  

In my limited thesting the P-30 is good right out of the camera, the A-22 can be made good in lightroom or pscs as long as I essentially home brew my own looks, but once again this only applies to my style of photography.

It seems to me these back manaufacturer's products seems to move back and forth as to who is the best.  Last year it seemed Leaf was dominant and now it seems to me that Phase has caught up with the other backs from Hasselblad and Sinar getting better.*  

All can be made good, it just depends on how much post work you are capable or willing to do.

Leaf has gone a step backwards mostly because of  software, Phase a step forward, but once again, that is as of today.

*(well I assume Sinar has because I've never even seen their back, much less shot with it).

IMO

JR
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Morgan_Moore
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« Reply #23 on: December 08, 2006, 01:34:34 AM »
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here just one of my photo, would like to hear from you what  format is it from?

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=89291\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

To be honest. I cant tell

It has pretty good depth of field but the background shows a wide iris and is kind of not sharp but not smooth

So that woud lead me to a beleive it was a 60 or 80 mm on a canon or A17

Yet it retains a kind of MF intimacy

I give up

----------------

James I am suprised you are more concerned with file quality - I think the 16 bit nature and phisical size of the files means you can kick them around more with out breaking them

I think it would be hard to do this with a canon or nikon..
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Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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eronald
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« Reply #24 on: December 08, 2006, 06:15:51 AM »
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Thanks, for everything,

here just one of my photo, would like to hear from you what  format is it from?

Regards,

Tomo
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=89291\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Hehe I'll bite as I already have a reputation as an idiot:

35mm wide lens (maybe Canon 35/1.4) or Leica 35/2. The lens looks like it's fun, and the depth of filed isn't that big so I don't think it's a compact (unless you photoshopped it).

Edmund
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joern_kiel
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« Reply #25 on: December 08, 2006, 07:02:18 AM »
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It looks like the Canon EF 135 - one of the best lenses ever.

Why don´t you use it wide open?

jørn
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James Russell
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« Reply #26 on: December 08, 2006, 08:38:46 AM »
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James I am suprised you are more concerned with file quality - I think the 16 bit nature and phisical size of the files means you can kick them around more with out breaking them

I think it would be hard to do this with a canon or nikon..
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I guess I'm always concerned with file quality, as well as the overall look.

Still, commercial work is 50% professionalism, 50% inspiration and if the system or camera won't keep up, or run stable, then the inspiration gets buried in fixes and reboots, etc. etc.

Think back to film.  You would never have used a film that required you to change all the backs, all the rolls every 10 rolls and you would have probably never used a film that would require a week to process, even if the costs were equal or the look was 5% better.

You would also never use a film camera that would jam every 10 rolls.

Stability and the utmost faith in your cameras, computers allows you to be free of worry and get on with the job.

Software that allows you to process quickly allows you to finish the job and get on to more important things.

As I suggested before, when someone decides on a system, test them as you work from setup to final delivery, not just shoot a few frames and process a few frames.

Few of us work that way.


JR
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Henry Goh
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« Reply #27 on: December 08, 2006, 08:44:26 AM »
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James,

Thus far with MFDB, have a you found a truly reliable camera system and back combo?  If not, do you think we are near to that point yet?

Thanks James.

Henry
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Eric Myrvaagnes
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« Reply #28 on: December 08, 2006, 09:25:54 AM »
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Thanks, for everything,

here just one of my photo, would like to hear from you what  format is it from?

Regards,

Tomo
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=89291\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Well, to me it looks as if it was taken with a Canon 1Ds mk II, with a 135mm lens at about, say, f/7.1, at ISO 100.      

Oops! Wasn't I supposed to see the exif data? And processed in CS2 on a Mac.  
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tomob
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« Reply #29 on: December 08, 2006, 07:01:58 PM »
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I'm really impressed how clearly some of you see it. Well done! This image was shot by 1DsMk2, 135mm L lens at around F/8. I'm tempted to try with another image but, don't want to be to boring...

After what I have read from you I'm not so enthusiastic about P30 as I was before. While I still find the C1 really good software to work with and would miss it a lot going with another system.

I don't know why somethings calls me to H2 CF22 or H3D22. It's not about the brand while in the film days I was never fan of Hasselblad and have had 555ELM  just for a short amount of time.

It's a hard decision the chip is as some of you said 2 years old. Also if I decide to go withh H3D22 I't make sense to do it soon while they still give you 3000 Euro off for old film medium format sistem.

T
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Morgan_Moore
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« Reply #30 on: December 08, 2006, 08:31:40 PM »
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The thing about your image it that at F8 the image is replacatable with different chip sizes ecausethe apertures are available

The one I posted has a lack of DOF that is hard to get from a 35mm chip size as you would need a very wide aperture

I think you are right to go for the chip with the largest area

BUT

My main concern is forward and backward compatability ie what happens if you want to change camera system

I think both of these backs can be used with a view camera alpa etc so you can get super wide or rise fal tilt shift

THe phase needs a factory mod if you went from Mamiya to BLad and the blad - I dont know if it can be used on another 645 system

Eyelike/sinar can easily be changed with plates although this change is not practical on a day to day basis as you need to calibrate using shims which are 'one time use'

Good luck

SMM
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Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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mkravit
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« Reply #31 on: December 08, 2006, 09:08:59 PM »
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I'm really impressed how clearly some of you see it. Well done! This image was shot by 1DsMk2, 135mm L lens at around F/8. I'm tempted to try with another image but, don't want to be to boring...

After what I have read from you I'm not so enthusiastic about P30 as I was before. While I still find the C1 really good software to work with and would miss it a lot going with another system.

I don't know why somethings calls me to H2 CF22 or H3D22. It's not about the brand while in the film days I was never fan of Hasselblad and have had 555ELM  just for a short amount of time.

It's a hard decision the chip is as some of you said 2 years old. Also if I decide to go withh H3D22 I't make sense to do it soon while they still give you 3000 Euro off for old film medium format sistem.

T
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After 9 frustrating months with numerous Leaf Aptus 75's I returned everything and purchased a Hasselblad H3D. I have had it for about a month now and the camera and back have been flawless. I have shot over 1000 frames and not a single error message.

Comparing the images side by side with the Aptus 75 images I find that I no longer have to add 21 units of magenta to get the color to something useable, I do not have centerfolds, color shift lines or obscure lockups and crashes when procesisng the files in LC10.

The lens distortion and chromatic abberration software is simply amazing. No color fringing in any of my images.

Color out of the H3D is excellent, 400ASA is as good as the leaf with 1600 and 800 ASA coming soon. Hasselblad is also working on extending the length of exposure.

As James said, Leaf has taken a step backward, Phase software a step up and Hasselblad IMO has solved all of the early issues. This of you who have NOT worked with the new H3D owe it to yourselves to take a look.
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James Russell
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« Reply #32 on: December 09, 2006, 09:30:25 AM »
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James,

Thus far with MFDB, have a you found a truly reliable camera system and back combo?  If not, do you think we are near to that point yet?

Thanks James.

Henry
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


The first time DB buyer is much different than the second round buyer.

First time it's somewhat of a shock to realize most of these backs are a lot harder to work with than the DSLR's, actually harder to work with than film.

They require a lot of computer to get things right and I almost think all the manufacturer's or dealers shoud sell the backs in bundles with laptops and desktops.

All of the db's require some sort of training, whether it be with the manufactuer's software, or 3rd party.

But, back to the question, I find my A-22 stable and with 3rd party software it produces a file that I think is superior to the dslrs and at least it's more consitent than the Canon 1ds MK2.

I will probably use the A-22 until the paint falls off.

Now the A-65 is another matter and I'm not going to go into detail, other than after about 5 frames I knew it just wasn't right for what I inteneded it for.  Eventually it may be, but I have work to do and I coiuldn't invest 6 weeks trying to find another series  workarounds like I did with the A-22.

As I've mentioned before I briefly tested a P-30 and the blad H3D and found them both quite good, though quite different.

My second or added digital back I wanted for higher ISO and easier, faster out of the camera/computer color response and the P-30 was more appealing to me, but most of that comes from the fact that C-1 is a much more mature and stable software suite.

Still, changing complete systems is difficult and much like changing film labs.  In the film days, you got use to the people you dealt with and learned thier personalitiesto the point going there was second nature.

Changing digital back brands is changing dealers, manfactuer's even computers and everything becomes a completely different learning experience and a new learning curve.

Like a film lab I am comfortable with the A-22 and if it went to a real 400 iso that was useable for me , I would have just bought a second one.  But it doesn't so, it's time to look at a new lab.



JR
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awofinden
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« Reply #33 on: December 09, 2006, 09:36:05 AM »
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The first time DB buyer is much different than the second round buyer.

First time it's somewhat of a shock to realize most of these backs are a lot harder to work with than the DSLR's, actually harder to work with than film.

They require a lot of computer to get things right and I almost think all the manufacturer's or dealers shoud sell the backs in bundles with laptops and desktops.

All of the db's require some sort of training, whether it be with the manufactuer's software, or 3rd party.

But, back to the question, I find my A-22 stable and with 3rd party software it produces a file that I think is superior to the dslrs and at least it's more consitent than the Canon 1ds MK2.

I will probably use the A-22 until the paint falls off.

Now the A-65 is another matter and I'm not going to go into detail, other than after about 5 frames I knew it just wasn't right for what I inteneded it for.  Eventually it may be, but I have work to do and I coiuldn't invest 6 weeks trying to find another series  workarounds like I did with the A-22.

As I've mentioned before I briefly tested a P-30 and the blad H3D and found them both quite good, though quite different.

My second or added digital back I wanted for higher ISO and easier, faster out of the camera/computer color response and the P-30 was more appealing to me, but most of that comes from the fact that C-1 is a much more mature and stable software suite.

Still, changing complete systems is difficult and much like changing film labs.  In the film days, you got use to the people you dealt with and learned thier personalitiesto the point going there was second nature.

Changing digital back brands is changing dealers, manfactuer's even computers and everything becomes a completely different learning experience and a new learning curve.

Like a film lab I am comfortable with the A-22 and if it went to a real 400 iso that was useable for me , I would have just bought a second one.  But it doesn't so, it's time to look at a new lab.
JR
http://www.russellrutherfordgroup.com/
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Interesting, what will the new lab be eh?
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tomob
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« Reply #34 on: December 12, 2006, 04:54:15 PM »
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Hi,

after I spend a long time thinking, comparing technical aspects and prices. I finally decided to go with new H3D22, until they still have the trade in old medium format camera for 3000 Euro promotion. While the price is similar to P30 I still hope my decision is right. At some point of my decision making I was more decided to buy P30, mostly because the softvare, higher iso (in + version), speed. But I also liked that with Imacon I can upgrade to 39 for 4.000 Euro. Which made it more stable investment. Also as much as I don't agree with Hasselblad new policies, it seems a good idea to have everything from one company so you always know who is responsible for what.

While I'm new to H sisitem I would like to ask you which lenses you suggest. I'll put on order 50-100mm zoom. I've heard it's the same quality as are the primes. Although it's hard to believe I still hope it should be very good. The next one will be 150 mm, it feels kind of more logical combination with zoom than 120mm macro. Later I'll by 35mm while I don't need wides so much.

 My other selection of lenses would be: 35mm, 100mm and 150mm, it's more expensive but also feels right.

Would like to hear what you think. And please I would like to hear your answers soon while tomorrow I can still modify my order, regarding lenses.


Many thanks,

T
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pss
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« Reply #35 on: December 12, 2006, 05:06:10 PM »
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i hope you also looked at some files and worked with them in the different softwares....as much as money is always an issue, saving a little can cost in  the long run....either way i am sure you have made a god desicion....about the 55-110: have you handled it on the H1? it is HUGE and HEAVY..very nice lens...but make sure you have handled it....
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tomob
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« Reply #36 on: December 12, 2006, 05:17:41 PM »
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Hi, PSS. No I haven't had a chance to handled the 50-100mm. What is your main concern? I newer used zooms a lot. My first was 55-110mm for Pentax67 also quite big I haven't had any problems. And my last was 24-70mm L for 1dsMk2, which I didn't like particularly.

At this moment again it seems like a practic, compact and economic solution.

I would be thankful for a more precise problems that my occur with this lens.
Thanks,

T
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« Reply #37 on: December 12, 2006, 06:11:40 PM »
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I think you probably  have it about right . I use the V series 40 , 80, 100 and 180 and think I could probably use a 150 instead of the 180. I don't use wide angles a lot but if i did I would probably invest in an Alpa or something, otherwise the 40 is plenty on the larger chip size.
I also think you made the right choice re back . Flexcolor is getting very good as far as workflow and I can't see it lacks anything to Capture one , with better speed, sharpness and noise control.
I am using the 132c Imacon back - a few software niggles (  more stable than the software supplied with my Canon) but mostly it is pretty good and a definite major step up  from the 1ds2 - more in colour and tone than anything but the sharpness is another world from a dslr - even with my older lenses ( I actually think they are far sharper than they ever were with film ). The advantage of more mega pixels will be less moire,  something to get used to if you have been using a Canon but at 39mp's it less of an issue than 22.
One thing is the resolution of the MF backs is that much more and tripod and mirror up seems to be the only way to go if you don't use studio flash to avoid mirror/camera shake. The Canon suffers from this too but it only gets worse along with the optimum point of sharpness and DOF as the mp's go up.



Quote
Hi,

after I spend a long time thinking, comparing technical aspects and prices. I finally decided to go with new H3D22, until they still have the trade in old medium format camera for 3000 Euro promotion. While the price is similar to P30 I still hope my decision is right. At some point of my decision making I was more decided to buy P30, mostly because the softvare, higher iso (in + version), speed. But I also liked that with Imacon I can upgrade to 39 for 4.000 Euro. Which made it more stable investment. Also as much as I don't agree with Hasselblad new policies, it seems a good idea to have everything from one company so you always know who is responsible for what.

While I'm new to H sisitem I would like to ask you which lenses you suggest. I'll put on order 50-100mm zoom. I've heard it's the same quality as are the primes. Although it's hard to believe I still hope it should be very good. The next one will be 150 mm, it feels kind of more logical combination with zoom than 120mm macro. Later I'll by 35mm while I don't need wides so much.

 My other selection of lenses would be: 35mm, 100mm and 150mm, it's more expensive but also feels right.

Would like to hear what you think. And please I would like to hear your answers soon while tomorrow I can still modify my order, regarding lenses.
Many thanks,

T
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awofinden
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« Reply #38 on: December 12, 2006, 06:21:06 PM »
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I think you probably  have it about right . I use the V series 40 , 80, 100 and 180 and think I could probably use a 150 instead of the 180. I don't use wide angles a lot but if i did I would probably invest in an Alpa or something, otherwise the 40 is plenty on the larger chip size.
I also think you made the right choice re back . Flexcolor is getting very good as far as workflow and I can't see it lacks anything to Capture one , with better speed, sharpness and noise control.
I am using the 132c Imacon back - a few software niggles (  more stable than the software supplied with my Canon) but mostly it is pretty good and a definite major step up  from the 1ds2 - more in colour and tone than anything but the sharpness is another world from a dslr - even with my older lenses ( I actually think they are far sharper than they ever were with film ). The advantage of more mega pixels will be less moire,  something to get used to if you have been using a Canon but at 39mp's it less of an issue than 22.
One thing is the resolution of the MF backs is that much more and tripod and mirror up seems to be the only way to go if you don't use studio flash to avoid mirror/camera shake. The Canon suffers from this too but it only gets worse along with the optimum point of sharpness and DOF as the mp's go up.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=90159\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I've never seen moire with the 1ds mark 2. The camera has issues but moire is never one I had.
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RicAgu
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« Reply #39 on: December 12, 2006, 07:01:16 PM »
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The 50-110 is an absolutely stellar lens.  Surprised the hell out of me as I i hated zoom on 35mm and only used primes.  I never use the 80mm but I have the 120 and 150 and the 120 BLOWS AWAY the 150.  I have not been able to find the right spot on the 150.

I have rented the 35 a couple of times and it really looks amazing.  Make sure you test the 150 a bit or if you dealer lets you ( actually he has to do this if he is worth a shit ).  You're buying close to $30k in gear.  Buy the ones you know you want.  Then test the two that your are debating about on a few gigs.  MAke the decision from there before commiting to the $3+K for the lens of your choice.

You will be very happy with the 50 to 110 and I am sure Hassy will continue to do great things their digibacks.
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