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Author Topic: C645+D35/3.5 vs ALPA+Rodenstock 35/4 HR  (Read 21496 times)
qoo3
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« on: December 09, 2006, 08:49:55 AM »
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I have just bought Leaf Aptus 75 couple weeks ago and am very happy with its superb image.  

My Aptus75 works on Contax645 body also on ALPA 12TC with C645 adaptor.

Today I made some comparison between C645 Distagon 35/3.5 and Rodenstock 35/4 APO-Sironar digital HR.

I found Rodenstock can create more clear and higher resolution image than Distagon. Especially at the edge and corner.

Maybe C645's lenses are designed for film, not optimized for digital.....  

Rodenstock 35/4, ISO50, F8

C645 D35/3.5, ISO50, F8, mirror locked. On tripod.

Corner comparison (left: D35, Right: 35/4 HR )

I also tested Schneider APO-Helvetar 48/5.6.
Although ALPA make it for film usage, I found it still almost have the same performance with digital lens....

Schneider 48/5.6, ISO50, F11
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TorbenEskerod
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« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2006, 10:11:48 AM »
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xx
« Last Edit: January 20, 2008, 05:37:02 AM by TorbenEskerod » Logged
TorbenEskerod
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« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2006, 10:30:25 AM »
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xx
« Last Edit: January 20, 2008, 05:37:38 AM by TorbenEskerod » Logged
qoo3
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« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2006, 12:11:19 PM »
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Actually, I am not familiar with LC10....
I have no Mac and there is no memu from Leaf. So I can only use try and error to convert the MOS file to TIFF or JPEG format (in PC trial version ).

I also noticed that there are moires. I found there is morie reduction function in LC10. It seems work. Maybe not perfect......But it is enough for me.  

Please see following links

moire reduction_1

moire reduction_2

moire_reduction_3
« Last Edit: December 09, 2006, 12:13:02 PM by qoo3 » Logged
TorbenEskerod
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« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2006, 01:02:39 PM »
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xx
« Last Edit: January 20, 2008, 05:38:01 AM by TorbenEskerod » Logged
digitalguy
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« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2006, 07:24:29 PM »
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It does indeed seems work with the moiré reduction on link 1 and 2 the way you did it - and I can also live with that.

I am much more worried about the color artifacts (CA ?) and how to deal with that - it seems to be everywhere once your eyes are tuned in.

It is still there in your moiré reduction 3 image.

Maybe someone here with more experience can give a hint on how to deal with these artifacts (different backs and different software).

Regarding the Contax 35mm - the one I tested was very sharp also at the corners at F11. In my testing the Hasselblad 35, Contax 35 and Schneider 35 Digitar were almost equal. The Mamiya 35 was not as sharp as the others. All tested on F11, tripod and mirror lock up.

Best

Torben Eskerod
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=89583\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I have heard from a rep who works for Phase that at their international sales managment conference a few weeks back they did a simialr test amongst the Mamiya 645 w/ 35mm , H2 w/35mm , not sure about thre contax, but they compared them to a CamboWide with a 35mm Digitar and the results were expected similar to what you have seen.

There is definitly a quality difference between the schneider/rodenstock digital lenses vs the regular lenses from on the 645MF systems.

I have asked for the sample files so they can be posted. It is intersting becuase they also compared H3D w/35mm vs P45 on H2 w/35mm and the P45 image had less CA. The image that was shot with the H3D looked better with their DCA tool turned off.

One of my collegues who just purchased a p45+ was able to take advantage of a worldwide promo that Phase One is doing until the end of the year in which he was able to purchase a Cambo Wide DS w/ 35mm Rodenstock HR lense for $3500 as a bundle with either the P25+ or P45+. Compare that to the list price of a Hasselblad 35mm HC lense at about $3050. He is able to have movements today and a nice piece of glass . No need to wait for that "t/s" lense from hassy that has been talked about for so long and who knows if they will supporrt it with 3rd party backs!
He also had the option of also pre-ordering the new Horseman SWDII Pro, and also if he wanted to could have opted for the 24mm Digitar for a price of $4000.


dg
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qoo3
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« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2006, 01:27:18 AM »
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I am much more worried about the color artifacts (CA ?) and how to deal with that - it seems to be everywhere once your eyes are tuned in.

It is still there in your moiré reduction 3 image.

I found the color artifacts in my moire_reduction_3 image is caused by sharpening process. I disable the default sharpening option in LC10 and get much better result....
Maybe we should not sharpen such area in Photoshop.

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qoo3
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« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2006, 01:31:06 AM »
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I have heard from a rep who works for Phase that at their international sales managment conference a few weeks back they did a simialr test amongst the Mamiya 645 w/ 35mm , H2 w/35mm , not sure about thre contax, but they compared them to a CamboWide with a 35mm Digitar and the results were expected similar to what you have seen.

There is definitly a quality difference between the schneider/rodenstock digital lenses vs the regular lenses from on the 645MF systems.

I have asked for the sample files so they can be posted. It is intersting becuase they also compared H3D w/35mm vs P45 on H2 w/35mm and the P45 image had less CA. The image that was shot with the H3D looked better with their DCA tool turned off.

Thanks! I wish I can see your sample files to make me more focus on ALPA+Rodenstock/Schneider digital lenses in the future.....
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BJNY
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« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2006, 05:17:11 AM »
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Torben,
Digital capture makes it SO easy to zoom in at 100 percent and inspect.  How does film compare at the same magnification....do you see color artifacts?
Billy
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Guillermo
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« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2006, 08:43:26 AM »
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eronald
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« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2006, 09:04:43 AM »
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The shots above, the "yellow zones" don't look like simple moiré (frequency aliasing) to me - maybe Newton Rings or some interference phenomenon inside the back. I suggest the shots of the building be forwarded to some *experts* at the back company.

Edmund
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Edmund Ronald, Ph.D. 
TorbenEskerod
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« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2006, 09:09:27 AM »
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TorbenEskerod
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« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2006, 09:18:13 AM »
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eronald
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« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2006, 03:49:46 PM »
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Hi Edmund

"yellow zones" ??

If you are refering to this images I posted - the problem is that this moiré shows in every single back I tested (H3D/39, A22 and two A75). And there is no easy way to fix it.

I hope for better luck with P45 next week.

Best

Torben

[attachment=1328:attachment]
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=89706\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yes, what is shown here is clearly frequency aliasing, it's an unavoidable result of digital capture. The only way to avoid it is by blurring slightly at capture eg. by using a so-called low-pass filter, or defocusing the lens slightly. But on the buildings earlier, I thought it might be something else - I was wrong and apologize for a misleading comment. The moiré you see is in no way a defect of the back used.

Edmund
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Edmund Ronald, Ph.D. 
qoo3
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« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2006, 08:44:58 AM »
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I am testing the H3D/39 with 35mm and a H2/P45 35mm next week - It is the same scene as I shot with H2/A75 35mm and Arca/A75 35 Schneider digitar. 

I can mail you some images if you wish.

Best

Torben Eskerod
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Hi Torben,

Thanks! Please meil me those testing images if you can
my email is: jyc3kimo@yahoo.com.tw

Sincerely
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made
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« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2007, 03:30:50 PM »
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Hi Billy

You are absolute right, testing is so much easier with digital and zooming in at 100%, and we all get more and more demanding.

The problem of testing is that the result depends on so many factors - you can get almost any result depending on your postproduction skills.

My problem is not knowing the software LC10 and Flexcolor that well - so I am dependent on the skills of the Reps.

If I had the time to work properly with my test shots I might come to a different conclusion.

I am an Architectural photographer and do demand a lot of my gear.

I don’t see these artifacts and moiré problems when I shoot film.

Maybe my problem is that I might be expecting too much of a MFD Back (in comparison to film and Canon). When I want to put down 40-50K for a MFD system I want the images to be perfect with NO moiré, CA and Color artifacts (unless it is easy to fix in raw development).

Best

Torben Eskerod
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Hi,

have you solved your problem til now ?

best wishes

Thomas

[a href=\"http://www.koculak.de]My Webpage[/url]
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www.koculak.de

frankfurt, germany
John_Black
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« Reply #16 on: February 24, 2007, 02:21:10 AM »
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I wonder if a P30 (or P30+) would have the same moire, or less?
« Last Edit: February 24, 2007, 02:21:33 AM by John_Black » Logged

Danijela D. Karic
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« Reply #17 on: February 24, 2007, 02:34:03 AM »
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I am adding some of my own test:

1: The whole scene

2: Contax 35mm A75

3. Mamiya 35mm A22

4. H3D39 28mm (Sunny day)

I see the same moire / artifacts on all my test.

Please help me to figure out these artifacts (or whatever they are called)

I have asked the Reps from Hasselblad and Leaf to process the images the best possible way in Leaf 10 and Felxcolor (yes CA and lens Correction has been applied).

Best

Torben Eskerod

[attachment=1318:attachment][attachment=1319:attachment][attachment=1320:attachm
ent][attachment=1321:attachment]
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Hi Torben Eskerod,

I must admit, Nº2 is UGLY. Is there a new firmware for A75 that solves this disaster?

Regards
Danijela
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fcicconi
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« Reply #18 on: February 28, 2007, 09:55:39 AM »
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Hi Torben Eskerod,

I must admit, Nº2 is UGLY. Is there a new firmware for A75 that solves this disaster?

Regards
Danijela
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=102775\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hi there are not a moire problem but I think chromatic optical aberration.
I made a test with p25 contax 35 1/60 f 9,5 and it's terrible .
I sent to PO support and they told me to change fola lens or diafram or nothing to do.
with A65 too have the same problem.
The lenses are the problem. Sigh!  
I attach my P25 test.[attachment=1945:attachment]
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Danijela D. Karic
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« Reply #19 on: February 28, 2007, 10:40:48 AM »
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Hi there are not a moire problem but I think chromatic optical aberration.
I made a test with p25 contax 35 1/60 f 9,5 and it's terrible .
I sent to PO support and they told me to change fola lens or diafram or nothing to do.
with A65 too have the same problem.
The lenses are the problem. Sigh!  
I attach my P25 test.[attachment=1945:attachment]
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=103766\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I appreciate your response. I wish I didn't have to buy Digital Back, because purchasing Digital Back has proved to be such a waste of time. However, as I said, I will wait after the PMA and then decide.

Thank you

Regards
Danijela
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