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Author Topic: RAW DEVELOPER for Aptus 75  (Read 7673 times)
mcfoto
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« on: December 13, 2006, 05:38:53 AM »
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Hi
We are working on a project with the Aptus 75 and since the files are huge. We have been using the Leaf processor ( great quality) but it is slow. We have RD and I recently processed a sample H3D39 file in 15 sec with RD and I think it will be about the same time with the Aptus 75. However I haven't had the time to test it but what have the Leaf users thought of the quality of RD vrs Leaf processing.
Thanks Denis
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Denis Montalbetti
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nicolaasdb
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« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2006, 10:26:24 PM »
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I use lightroom for my Aptus 65 files...never used leaf software...RD works fine bought this a while ago...but never really used it, although it works very fast, but I prefer the color control in lightroom.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2006, 10:27:20 PM by nicolaasdb » Logged
robert zimmerman
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« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2006, 02:30:50 AM »
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Using an Aptus 22 (and still being on the learning curve!) I can say Adobe Camera Raw works the fastest. It's easy to handle and has lots of control. I can batch a large session and the processing time is quite acceptable, definitely faster than the Leaf software.
I've never batched with RD (haven't figured it out yet   ), so I don't know what kind of control and speed you have there. For single shots and slow work (stills) it's a little faster than Leaf, depending on the adjustments made, but for those occasions leaf gives me a better file than RD, so I've stuck to leaf.
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E_Edwards
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« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2006, 02:42:35 AM »
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Yes, Lightroom does a good job very quicly and I use it for Aptus 65 files with good results. In fact, Lightroom lets you selectively adjust colours, for instance, brighter yellows only, or less saturated skin tones, or those skies that need to be more instense. And you can tweak detail in the deep shadows and extract more detail in the highlights really easily.

I took to it like fish to water, much as I took to Photoshop when it first came out many years ago. The only thing that I still find confussing is the importing, the shoot sesions and all that, but I haven't bothered to use it as an archiving tool yet because it's all going to be changed and simplified by the time they release their first public version anyway, I reckon by February.


To give you an idea of timings, I processed 42 uncropped files in the Leaf C10 (80 megs each) and it took 40 minutes. In Lightroom it took 6 minutes, I'm not kidding. Same computer same everything.

You can get practically identical results with Lightroom once you set a Preset and apply it to all your images. The sharpening in the LEAF gives you more control than Lightroom, and the Leaf C10 files are slightly less grainy if you apply a lot of sharpening.  But we are talking very, very small differencies that would never be apparent in print. Also, if you are one of these persons who likes to apply final sharpening in Photoshop, I would say, apply just a little initial sharpening to the files so that they are nice and punchy but still smooth and free from halos or noise, (the default is fine (but I go for more) and you are done.

You don't have to use Lightroom for archiving, you can just import the files, process them to a folder of your choosing and then remove them from the Lightroom library once you are done, leaving your raw files intact.

I find Lightroom stable, but I haven't processed 1000's of files at one single time, so I wouldn't know how it can cope.

Edward
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ericstaud
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« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2006, 02:50:38 AM »
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RAW Developer has very good color out of the can, but I have not used it in a production environment.  It is very fast at processing, similar I think to ACR.

I ran the FORs calibration script for ACR.  Before the script, the ACR color was very boring.  After the script it became my processor of choice for the Aptus 75.  I will sometimes open images in LC10 to check out the color and contrast.  If I prefer it, I then open ACR side by side with LC10 and try to emulate that color and contrast using the Calibration Tab of ACR.  This way I can use ACR to process the rest of the job at about 15 seconds per image.

Making qualitative judgements about these processors is like trying to juggle several bars of soap.  Each one has such a different character for sharpening, noise reduction, color, and contrast.  I like Leaf for Color, RAW developer for noise reduction, and ACR for workflow and image adjustment.

It certainly takes a lot of time investment to get good at any single processor.  Most photogaphers I know have reached a saturation point with it.
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rainer_v
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« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2006, 03:30:53 AM »
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lightroom is what i started to use often for the e75. directly compared withe raw develloper i get in 85% of the shots better results in LR. the gradation sliders and esp. the way it seperate the color channels in 6 parts is unseen by other converters and even programms.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2006, 08:52:10 AM by rehnniar » Logged

rainer viertlböck
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« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2006, 07:55:44 AM »
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Raw Developer is excellent, but at this point, I find it only usable for "one file at a time", because the little Thumbnails do not get updated after you batch correct them. It just bugs me too much, to not see them corrected. This will be corrected in a future release though. Brian's software is very very good for individual files.

Long term, my money is on Lightroom. It overwhelms me when I try to use it -- too many choices, too many sliders. But still, I think in the end, it will be the one.

PS. I don't shoot a75; I shoot p45, but the same issues apply.

I am thinking that Leaf is praying to God that Lightroom satisfies Leaf customers, because LC10 surely does not. Weird how one company could save the life of another company, unknowingly.
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robert zimmerman
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« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2006, 12:06:17 PM »
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I am thinking that Leaf is praying to God that Lightroom satisfies Leaf customers, because LC10 surely does not. Weird how one company could save the life of another company, unknowingly.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=90512\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The strange thing is the more I use LC8, the more I find that it's an excellent and extrememly flexable software in many ways. It's fast for tethered shooting and has very good live view. Why can't they put decent white balance and some color correction sliders in it and call it LC 11? I actually don't mind batching in a separate program if that means everything else is faster and won't crash after 60 shots.

I actually got a glimpse of LC10.1 Beta and it does look promising. Live view is nicely integrated and the color adjustments have been improved. If it's fast and stable it might be a winner.
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mcfoto
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« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2006, 10:26:23 PM »
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Hi
Thanks for your comments. This was the first time I used the Aptus 75 and I was impressed. Captured in 8.3.4 and processed all the files with Leaf. Finally today did a comparison vrs Raw developer and they wre close. Still thought the Leaf processor had better colour but nothing that could not be tweaked. Speed wise Leaf 1min, 35 sec & Raw 15 secs. I think I will tweak the RD file for next time as that is a huge time savings!! I am still not sure about LC 10 yet. And it seems that next year from my sources that my ZD will work with the Phase software. Interesting TIMES. Have a great holiday everyone.
Denis
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Denis Montalbetti
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« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2006, 10:35:38 PM »
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I have used Raw Developer with Aptus65 files and was very impressed with the quality of the output.  I found that I could extract a little more detail compared with CS2/ACR.  However the Adobe conversion was faster.  I have recently been doing some experimenting with CS3 and Leaf files and I am again very impressed. So right now, i am not sure which one is better but Adobe conversions for me are clearly faster. Mark

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Hi
Thanks for your comments. This was the first time I used the Aptus 75 and I was impressed. Captured in 8.3.4 and processed all the files with Leaf. Finally today did a comparison vrs Raw developer and they wre close. Still thought the Leaf processor had better colour but nothing that could not be tweaked. Speed wise Leaf 1min, 35 sec & Raw 15 secs. I think I will tweak the RD file for next time as that is a huge time savings!! I am still not sure about LC 10 yet. And it seems that next year from my sources that my ZD will work with the Phase software. Interesting TIMES. Have a great holiday everyone.
Denis
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Dustbak
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« Reply #10 on: December 24, 2006, 09:11:19 AM »
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The strange thing is the more I use LC8, the more I find that it's an excellent and extrememly flexable software in many ways. It's fast for tethered shooting and has very good live view. Why can't they put decent white balance and some color correction sliders in it and call it LC 11? I actually don't mind batching in a separate program if that means everything else is faster and won't crash after 60 shots.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=90541\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Yes, Yes, Yes and another Yes. Please let Leaf do something like that. I know just another thing they should put in.

A way to invoke the scripting engine of ACR so you can drop files taken tethered immediately into the Image Processor of ACR. Or onto a droplet, that would be ok to.

This would mean setting up my light, making or selecting the right actions and here you go. Processing while you shoot.
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James Russell
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« Reply #11 on: December 26, 2006, 12:47:27 AM »
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Yes, Yes, Yes and another Yes. Please let Leaf do something like that. I know just another thing they should put in.

A way to invoke the scripting engine of ACR so you can drop files taken tethered immediately into the Image Processor of ACR. Or onto a droplet, that would be ok to.

This would mean setting up my light, making or selecting the right actions and here you go. Processing while you shoot.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I have tried and used the scripts to import files into RD, while I shot to V-8, but (and there is always a but for this stuff, it's slows things down and of course whatever you set in color in V-8 really isn't picked in in RD and what you do in RD really is applied to every file coming in, which takes some manual work to keep up.

Maybe a second script will do it, but at this point it's either too slow, complicated or just too much work to do base adjustments while I tether.

As far as color, I don't have an actual comparision, but it seems to me the color in V-8 has changed in the last year (not really for the better) and the color in lc10 has got slightly better.

Regardless is apparant that Leaf's development is going forward with LC-10 and V-8 is just around because, well I guess because it is stable.

I get a lot of questions about correcting for skintones with the Aptus 22 file so I quickly put this together.

The good news is the color of the A-22 file can be tremendous with skintones, the challenge is it takes some work and a lot of testing in a lot of convertors.

Lightroom gets closer than any convertor, but nothing is as nice and exact as photoshop.

[a href=\"http://www.russellrutherfordgroup.com/a22/]http://www.russellrutherfordgroup.com/a22/[/url]

JR

P.S.  These are all screen shots so color is not exact, but gives some idea of the corrections required which means it takes a bending of the curve to get a proper golden brown skinton and a neutral background.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2006, 12:48:59 AM by James Russell » Logged
Dustbak
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« Reply #12 on: December 26, 2006, 03:01:50 AM »
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Thanks for sharing that James!  

I will give some of your color corrections a go and see what it does to my shots. I am especially intrigued by the color noise reduction and luminance smoothing you applied to one image. These values were rather high which makes me wonder why you would do that?

I also noticed your A22 is more or less neutral, it seems only about 10 points off towards green.
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robert zimmerman
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« Reply #13 on: December 26, 2006, 04:26:25 AM »
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Thanks James,

it can be quite frustrating at the beginning of the learning curve with these backs and the software.
Especially with skin tones - they come out so different and react very differently than when shot on film.

It's very generous of you to give this out as a basis for working with the Aptus backs. Leaf could certainly use these kind of tutorials (more!) for demonstrating how the software can be used to its fullest potential and where third party software can help ease some of the problems with digital capture & workflow.

Thanks again and all the best for the new year,

Kipling
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AndrewDyer
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« Reply #14 on: December 26, 2006, 04:56:44 AM »
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My thanks also James.
It really is great to have you on this forum so generously giving your time so show us some of your tricks.
Hope your having a good holiday as well.
Andrew
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rainer_v
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« Reply #15 on: December 26, 2006, 06:02:41 AM »
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thanks james,
interesting to see how you use the LR color sets for your kind of work. i think the color sliders in LR are a great fine tune tool, which i like more than the selective color setting in ps.
i havent seen an algorythm with more precise and flexible luminance tuning for the single color ranges.
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rainer viertlböck
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James Russell
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« Reply #16 on: December 26, 2006, 10:41:54 AM »
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Thanks James,

it can be quite frustrating at the beginning of the learning curve with these backs and the software.
Especially with skin tones - they come out so different and react very differently than when shot on film.

It's very generous of you to give this out as a basis for working with the Aptus backs. Leaf could certainly use these kind of tutorials (more!) for demonstrating how the software can be used to its fullest potential and where third party software can help ease some of the problems with digital capture & workflow.

Thanks again and all the best for the new year,

Kipling
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=92328\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I see a project in three parts.

1st is the display when shooting and obviously I want this as close to the "film look" and as pleasing as possible.  No green backgrounds, no magenta faces, just skintones that are moveable and wardrobe that is accurate to the genre in which I'm shooting.  Obviously a very cool image will effect the wardrobe, same with a very warm image, but skintones should be smooth, pretty and not green or bright red.

The second part is the proof stage which for me is web galleries and contact sheets.  Once again as close to the original vision as possible but these don't have to be exact, (thouigh exact would be good).

The third is final delivery of the files, either retouched or ready for retouching, I guess this is the transparency stage if put into film terms.

With the Aptus, part three is not difficult, but parts one and two are.
 
V-8 is stable for tethering, but not near controllable or moveable enough.  You can get to "kind of pleasing," but that's where it stops.  LC10 is better, but still doesn't offer much control and of course the achiles heel is it's not stable for a large volume of images, at least a large volume that takes correction.

What is needed from Leaf, other than a temp/tint slider is bettter input profiles that more mimic the curves I presented.  

Also the ability to save these select receipes.  

Steps one and two in workflow are brutal and always on a time crunch and this is where C-1 is about 42 miles ahead.

Personally I like lightroom, but it's still a PTA.  Maybe because it's beta, or maybe because it takes a whole lot of move and wait corrections, but regardless of why, it's still slow to react and takes a lot of up and down the correction trail to get to a good skintone.

I've found the easiest and fastest way (today) to get to good jpegs for web and contact sheets is to just process out all the raw in pscs with only exposure corrections and then run a photoshop batch process on the jpegs to my "own" receipe for skin.

JR
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hcubell
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« Reply #17 on: December 26, 2006, 11:23:13 AM »
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What is needed from Leaf, other than a temp/tint slider is bettter input profiles that more mimic the curves I presented. 

Also the ability to save these select receipes. 

Steps one and two in workflow are brutal and always on a time crunch and this is where C-1 is about 42 miles ahead.


JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=92361\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Does the Leaf software not offer a way to create a full set of curves in RGB and individual color channels that can be saved and automatically applied to every image upon import into the software?
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James Russell
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« Reply #18 on: December 26, 2006, 01:01:16 PM »
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Does the Leaf software not offer a way to create a full set of curves in RGB and individual color channels that can be saved and automatically applied to every image upon import into the software?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=92366\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


None of this is doom and gloom scenarios because you can get a great look from an aptus file, it just takes some work and other manufacturers have their own skin tone issues as well with some of their products.

I am also not saying my way is the only way because it's not, but I get a lot of PM questions so I thought it would be best to answer in what I know works for me.

I hold to the point that all three processes from capture, proofs to final output should be in one lock step, or at least as close as possible.

All of the DB's will be held to higher standards than dslrs, just becasue they are professional tools.


JR



I would like to add that professional equipment needs professional solutions and since the software is now the film and the lab, it must be on time, on delivery, and allow for a beautiful result.

Our standards are still film, whether we like it or not and even if film is some romantic notion of the past, digital must reflect those looks and get to that ease of workflow.

None of us wouild ever use a lab that didn't provide a professional result.

At least not twice.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2006, 02:38:07 PM by James Russell » Logged
LMO
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« Reply #19 on: December 27, 2006, 03:58:42 AM »
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Now that Leaf is part of Kodak, would it not be possible for them to make "Kodak Film" profiles for their backs ? Surely it would not be impossible for them to get the data needed to do so ?

Dont know if this is possible, but I would love to have a "Portra" setting, instead of "Portrait Warm Y 4"..

Most of the Leaf input profiles give too magenta skintones for my preference, and blond hair often render red or brown. I might be using some wrong settings. But very often I end up editing skintones in PS. I would very much like to edit the input profiles to shift those skinones, but the Leaf Profile Editor is another €1395.-, so maybe next year..

Quote
Our standards are still film, whether we like it or not and even if film is some romantic notion of the past, digital must reflect those looks and get to that ease of workflow.

None of us wouild ever use a lab that didn't provide a professional result.

At least not twice.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=92373\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Lasse Mørkhagen
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