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Author Topic: Phase bundle with Horsemann / Cambo  (Read 8560 times)
TorbenEskerod
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« on: December 20, 2006, 04:28:53 AM »
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xx
« Last Edit: January 20, 2008, 05:48:50 AM by TorbenEskerod » Logged
DominiqueMarcWehrli
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« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2006, 05:23:02 AM »
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Torben

other options:
Gottschalt: www.gottschalt.de
Alpa XY, www.alpa.ch
Ebony Finesse: http://www.ebonycamera.com/
Fotoman Dmax: http://www.fotomancamera.com

I have tested the Cambo. The big advantage in comparison to the horseman is geared movement. I really need this on the small digital-format.

Dominique
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Kumar
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« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2006, 06:32:18 AM »
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Torben,

I have the Cambo. Geared is the way to go. But it's larger than the Horseman.

There's an Arca-Swiss R due soon.

Cheers,
Kumar
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Prakash Patel
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« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2006, 09:53:34 AM »
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Torben,

I am new member to the forum.......I am not sure how to copy your questions and directly respond   to each question.

I have a CamboWide DS and an SWPro( filmversion of the SW-D Pro - this has non geared rise/fall and shift). The original SW-D Pro only accepted the Hassy V backs and rise/fall was on the lens panel
and shift was on the film/back panel. The SW-D ProII allows more mounts and all movements(rise/fall & horizontal shift) are
implementd from the film/back panel. However, I have not used this camera in a digital application.

1. What system would you choose for Architectural work?
This is really a personal preference .....compactness vs. a systems solution similar to analog 4x5
As Kumar has stated the Cambowide DS is geared and the SW-D pro is more compact with friction/lock movements.
The Cambo DS is a modified 4x5 body which allows more movement and the ability to shoot from a 24xl to a 150mm lens. This camera also allows the use of 4x5 film for situations where digital solutions are not appropriate. Take a look at the cambo website and also look in the Cambowide analog solution.
The Cambowide allows for a broader visual vocabulary at the expense of being bigger and the Horseman is a more compact solution which will not allow the use of the entire image circle of the 45 or 47mm digital lenses.
Ideally you would like the capabilities/limitations of both of these systems.
Cambo recently introduced a miniwide body(no movements) that accepts lens panels of the CWDS, hopefully they will introduce another body that is smaller than the DS with limited movements.

2/3) I am in the same predicament is you.......I have a Vsystem mount on tha CamboWide  and want to be able to to use my back on a Contax. If you separate composing from focusing there are solutions that are not elegant but workable as of today. The Cambowide has a film panel plate that is the size of the camera perimeter. You would have these two larger plates.....one with a rotatable  Contax mount for your back  and the other with a Hassy V mount with the Hassy ground glass for composing. Focusing is more accurate using the distance scales on the lenses.
Contact Renee Rook at Cambo.com for more info about this interchangeabiity issue. Manufacturers need to hear from shooters about their problems............... for me, composing on a groundglass is a photographic process that is not replaced by live video.
Ideally the ground glass would have split image focusing and be the size of the interchangeable digital back plate.

4) Why would you not shoot tethered....an 8x10 poloriod size is preferable to a thumbnail along with the ability to execute specific software functions of the various digital backs that can only  be implemented  when tethered.

6) They are both well made systems that are manufactured for the marketplace for specific capabilities for a given price point.......probably the HorsemanSWPro has a nicer finish. For me,it is more about the capabilities/limitations of these tools rather than pure aesthetic concerns.  There  are certainly other cameras that are very intriguing like the Gottshalt that Rainer V. has described. As well as others that have been mentioned in other threads

Hope this helps in your decision making process
« Last Edit: December 20, 2006, 05:35:29 PM by Prakash Patel » Logged

zzzone
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« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2006, 10:20:24 AM »
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Hi

I am using the P45 on the Cambo WDS (kindly loaned to me by Phase) whilst I am waiting for the Horseman to arrive.

I went for the Horseman because the back shifts and not the lens.  The Cambo does in one direction but not in the other.  I might miss the gearing the Cambo has but we shall see.

Choose the Mamiya mount and purchased the 645 to go with it.  I don't like the barrel distortion with the 45mm lens.  I hope that Capture One v4 can sort this out, otherwise I might regret not having gone for the H3D and the software distortion correction.

Steve Townsend
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marcwilson
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« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2006, 10:24:31 AM »
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I have done much research over the last month or so into these various options.

there is also the silvestri bicam system that allows the use of film as well as digital back etc but does not offer geared movemenst and has just 15mm of movements.

The cambo certainly does seem to offer the best photographic ability in terms of precision of geared movements, options of all digital backs, digitar lenses down to 24mm, film options upto 5x4, etc.
the downsides, as far as i can see, are it is larger than the other options (but with it the ability of 54 film) and the inability to use any pre-existing large format lenses as you have to buy the cambo lens panels and lenses and can not simply buy cones  /focussing mounts to go with you lenses as you can with silvestri, fotoman, etc...generally this means a more expensive investment overall.

The fotoman dmax also looks very interesting as it takes film upto 612 and wide digitar lenses, has 25mm of movements etc but it will not accept contax mount digitalbacks (according to them) and does not have geared movements...it is of course not out yet.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2006, 10:25:06 AM by marcwilson » Logged

ericstaud
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« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2006, 11:29:45 AM »
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There is one man in chicago to talk to at Calumet who the expert on Cambo.  I can't remember his name of course, but you could find him in one call I bet.  He will be the one to talk to.  Go straight to him about accesories and availability.

I have used a ground glass with those lenses before (on the Horseman).  When I bought my Alpa 12SWA, I did not even consider getting a groundglass.  On 6x4.5 digital the grains look more like boulders, and the falloff is severe (so you can only see the image and focus in the center of the screen).  With the helical focus you can guess the distance, dial it into the lens, and check it on the P45 screen.  It will be just as fast.

I bought the Alpa because of the better distribution and wider range of lenses.  It shifts down by mounting the lens on the back (you don't need any special adapters).  Just about anything Alpa can be at Fotocare or Badger in 2 days, and to you in one more day.  Almost everything I bought from Fotocare was already in stock.

Cambo is starting to get its act together.  When I purchased my Alpa in the spring, Cambo's web site was a mess, and many of the lenses listed delivery times in months rather than in 2-3 days.  The total price for the system and the lenses I wanted was the same.

Calumet rents the Cambo wide.  I shot a job for a week with it back in February.  The camera came from Los Angeles, and the 24mm lens came from Chicago.  Once you have used the sytem, you will be better able to compare it to the others.

I am checking focus and composing on the P45 every day.  No Problem.  The histogram and highlight warning work very well.  I don't want to show it to a client though, because the image doesn't look good.  I am waiting for the P45+ to arrive to solve that though.

There is no public information about taking a lens in one mount ( Alpa, Cambo, Horseman) and setting it in another mount.  The process is very exacting.  My first 35mm digitar was mis-shimmed by .10 mm.  This is a huge error in focus.  It would be interesting to know what Cambo, Alpa, and Horseman would charge for switching the mount.  And, just as important, how long the turnaround time would be.
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rainer_v
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« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2006, 12:35:57 PM »
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maybe you can take a look to gottschalt cameras.
www.gottschalt.de
although its german the page is easy to understand. you can deliver your lenses he will mount them. prices are reasonable, possibilities of his system great, individual but not fast as he produce many things on demand.
i have the ds45 modified that it can take my lenses from28hr to 135digital (sinar). front moves 30mm and can be turned around for 360 degrees. back moves horizontal 25mm left and right. it is a sliding back with groundglas and loupe on one side. mount of the digiback can be turned 90degrees without removing the back.
works fine.
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rainer viertlböck
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« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2006, 01:10:24 PM »
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Hi Rainer,

A few question on your camera if you do not mind.

Do you find it works well with both film and digital. i will be using ti with film first (69 and 612) and the digital later or hired.

Are the movements on your gottschalt geared and if not do you find the slide and locking mechanism to work really well?

Was the conversion to allow it to take lenses wider than 38mm expensive and does this affect its ability to take the longer lenses (38mm + 65mm)

Also how much did he charge to fit one of your existing lenses to his focussing mount?

Thanks,

Marc
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BJNY
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« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2006, 01:34:14 PM »
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Rainer,
Any chance you could post some pictures of your customized Gottschalt?
Thanks,
Billy

Quote
maybe you can take a look to gottschalt cameras.
www.gottschalt.de
although its german the page is easy to understand. you can deliver your lenses he will mount them. prices are reasonable, possibilities of his system great, individual but not fast as he produce many things on demand.
i have the ds45 modified that it can take my lenses from28hr to 135digital (sinar). front moves 30mm and can be turned around for 360 degrees. back moves horizontal 25mm left and right. it is a sliding back with groundglas and loupe on one side. mount of the digiback can be turned 90degrees without removing the back.
works fine.
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Guillermo
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« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2006, 02:52:06 PM »
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I use the cambo wide ds and absolutely love it.  To answer some of your questions:

-The ground glass is a bit of a hassle so I usually shoot tethered or compose on the display.
-It does work though composing on the ground glass
-The viewfinder works ok but not great
-As far as focusing its sorta like hand grenades, it such a wide angle(35mm) that everything is in focus and the scale on the lens is not too bad range focusing.
-I think it's about $900(could be wrong) for a contax adapter plate for the cambo
-The lens are a bit expensive but I found a european cambo catalog that lists a cambo conversion of your lens for 640 euros (how long this takes I have no idea.)

Calumet rents the cambo w/ 35mm for $150 a day, I would ask if you can rent it and have that taken off the back price.  It really is a good offer they have going right now.

Peace,
Weldon
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rainer_v
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« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2006, 03:35:48 PM »
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i will post some images, as soon i find the time. just stay some days in hospital... moving than on saturday to spain one week to come back beginning of jan. to shoot a book for a museum, shooting has to be finished mid of jan.... at the moment seems to be a little bit stressy the next weeks... but i will do ....

bout the questions:
the movements are not geared, you move with one screw and fix with a bigger one the movement. with some training this works fine with one hand. i never used the camera with film, but it should be no problem. the matte glass is removable and can be fitted with a 6x9cm filmholder, or he could mount a filmadapter where is now the back. the back has a special mount, which has to be very thin. i asked  for two things:
1. to be able to move the chip 90 degrees without unmounting it.
2. for a dark slider i can put before the sensor if i change lenses or if i slide to the groundglass.
so a standard hassy or whatelse mount did not work for becoming to fat.
i can use all my 6 lenses from28(HR) to 135mm. the movements with 135mm start to be limited at app.22mm for the length of the tubus, so longer lenses dont make sense or you cannot shift them anymore. the schneider 24+35 digitars could be mounted, but in this case the front lense can not be moved. you only could shift with the back sidewards, but you could mount the camera vertical so you could go up and down with the sliding back. doesnt sound very comfortable,- i didnt care cause i prefer in any case the rodenstock HR lenses which dont make any problem  ( anyway i was not conscient when i ordered it ).

the system is not cheap, although i believe from alpa would be more, from cambo less.
i paid at all around $10.000 (plus tax 16%). this included the helical mounts for the six lenses incl. the adapters, the sliding back, the camera body, some little and expensive accessoirs.
although he tried to deliver the things very fast, for adjustements, this or that changes, this or that detail which has had to be fixed or was not finished the camera has to be sent 3 times back in the last year, and i never have time for that stuff also cause usually i have to work...... it seems so that now it is finally finished. its a  special and very individual tool ... but i could have imagined that before, anyway i didnt. so i hope to be a happy camper now, the possibilities, the handling, the weigth and size of the camera are great.

p.s.
one time more has to go the camera to him in springtime, cause he will make me tha a single back for shooting with viewfinder only. therefore has to be changed something in the body to switch fast fro the sliding back to the single back.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2006, 03:39:47 PM by rehnniar » Logged

rainer viertlböck
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DominiqueMarcWehrli
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« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2006, 03:06:34 AM »
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Gottschalt produces a new and thinner camera at the moment (RD). It will be possible to use the 24 and 35mm lenses. So you can use shift with the schneider 35mm. He told me it should be available in February 07. This camera is not yet listed on his website.

Dominique
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free1000
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« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2006, 09:29:27 AM »
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I like my Cambo Wide with the Aptus 75. I use the Schneider 35XL and 47XL lenses and they are both good.

Once I got used to this camera I found I can work extremely rapidly. I'm either going to buy the Rodenstock 28HR or Schneider 24XL next.

As with others, I don't find a need for the ground glass. On interiors I use a tape measure and the lens scale. On exteriors its infinity, f11+ and POW! Beautiful deep focus...

My experience is that Cambo can be quite variable on quality, so its worth being prepared to spend time and money testing and getting Cambo to calibrate things if the results are not quite right. My 47XL has quite a sloppy fitting on the camera, but the results are sharp... Initially I had Cambo ship me a replacement but sent it back because although it fitted perfectly, it wasn't sharp. My 35XL is sharp from corner to corner, but I know someone else who had one that was soft all down one side... so there is a possible problem with consistency.

Overall its taken me 6 months from purchase to have everything calibrated and working well... but maybe I'm just unlucky.
 
Best of luck with your decisions.
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« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2006, 06:22:43 PM »
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Quote
There is one man in chicago to talk to at Calumet who the expert on Cambo.  I can't remember his name of course, but you could find him in one call I bet.  He will be the one to talk to.  Go straight to him about accesories and availability.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=91624\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Doug Sperling is the man - (630) 860-7447 ex3393
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TorbenEskerod
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« Reply #15 on: January 07, 2007, 03:13:30 PM »
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xx
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zzzone
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« Reply #16 on: January 08, 2007, 01:41:39 AM »
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Phase came to my studio a few days ago with both the Horsemann and the Cambo so I could have a look side by side. They are both very well build cameras. I decided in favor for the Cambo because of the geared movement and the much easier way to change lenses.

Torben
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Hi Torben

What mount fitting did you go for on the P45?

I went for the Horseman bundle which I received yesterday and I am not impressed with some aspects of the set up.  Maybe I should have gone for the Cambo!

Steve
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Kumar
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« Reply #17 on: January 08, 2007, 06:53:54 AM »
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I'm curious to know what you didn't like about the Horseman.

Kumar
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TorbenEskerod
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« Reply #18 on: January 08, 2007, 09:48:41 AM »
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Boghb
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« Reply #19 on: January 08, 2007, 10:35:37 AM »
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Kumar

Some more design flaws of the Horseman:

If you attach an arca-type quick release plate, it prevents the lens block's ability to shift down (fall), requiring another awkward accessory that substantially adds to the camera dimensions and weight;

The knobs for the movements are not precise or comfortable, so you often think the position is locked when it is not

The viewfinder does not have indicators for different lenses, so you have to change the mask with each lens change, and that is even more burdensome that the lens change itself

The viewfinder is not accurate and does not indicate movement, so you have to shoot and check composition -- repeat -- until you get it right

It is not possible to use a sliding back; so lenses longer than 35mm are difficult to focus

Lens choices are limited
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