Ad
Ad
Ad
Pages: « 1 2 [3] 4 5 »   Bottom of Page
Print
Author Topic: Z3100 review  (Read 32061 times)
Tim Ernst
Guest
« Reply #40 on: January 06, 2007, 05:52:38 PM »
ReplyReply

"No-one is comparing apples to grapes"

Yup, I think you just did. It really doesn't matter in this case though and I think the facts speak for themselves...
Logged
Mark D Segal
Contributor
Sr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 6926


WWW
« Reply #41 on: January 06, 2007, 06:20:53 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote
You're confusing two issues: optimal ink load, dry time etc settings for third-party papers and profiling. Epson could decide tomorrow to make it easy for users of their machines (current and future) to work with third-party papers and it doesn't need a built-in spectro. A software solution would work just as well ... they're already halfway there with ColorBase. Maybe even better as it enables assessment of dry down per head pass by eye. A bit of competition will hopefully force them to get their act together.

As to whether other manuafcturers follow suit and add built-in spectros to their future models, it remains to be seen. Maybe they won't have any choice if the market demands it (whether most end up using it or not). I'm not convinced that the process will build totally optimal profiles, nor that GM/X-Rite are prepared to cannibalize their own market for stand-alone profiling solutions. But for those that just want a "profile", it's an attractive feature.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=94221\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Stephen, you may refer back to Michael's review where the issue of dry-down time in the profiling process is well covered.

There is a software solution for Epson printers called "ImagePrint" and it costs over a thousand dollars, providing generic profiles for many papers - but they are not profiles individualized to the user's machine. They are very good profiles, but one does depend on the machines being very well calibrated to one standard and staying that way.

While you may not be convinced that the HP process will build what you call "optimal profiles", I've seen the results first hand and that quality would not be obtained with sub-standard profiles. The equipment built-in to the Z3100 is state-of-the-art and it does allow profiling from a read of over 900 patches. One would think that should suffice.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2007, 06:21:52 PM by MarkDS » Logged

Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
Stephen Best
Guest
« Reply #42 on: January 06, 2007, 06:26:45 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote
Stephen, you may refer back to Michael's review where the issue of dry-down time in the profiling process is well covered.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=94228\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Different thing. The dry time per head pass governs the printing speed in the respective modes (uni/bi-directional). I'm not sure how HP accomodates this with their built-in calibration, unless they're factoring in conservative values.
Logged
Mark D Segal
Contributor
Sr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 6926


WWW
« Reply #43 on: January 06, 2007, 06:42:55 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote
Different thing. The dry time per head pass governs the printing speed in the respective modes (uni/bi-directional). I'm not sure how HP accomodates this with their built-in calibration, unless they're factoring in conservative values.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=94229\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

My understanding, based on what I've read, is that the machine reads the patches the machine has printed - so if the user sets the machine to print patches in bi-directional mode it will read those and likewise for unidirectional mode.  So if drying time per head pass really makes a noticeable difference to anything and the machine allows printing the patches in different modes, one would use the profile consistently under the conditions in which it was created, as one should do with any profiling. Then there should be no issue. But it would be good for someone who knows the detailed mechanics of this process to jump in and correct any errors here. HOWEVER, all that said and done, if HP is correct as Michael quotes them, that drying time is not an issue, perhaps judging from results one should give them the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise.
Logged

Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
Kenneth Sky
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 421


WWW
« Reply #44 on: January 06, 2007, 06:51:38 PM »
ReplyReply

The point of this thread is that the Z3100 appears to be as good as it gets (for the time being) and all other printers can be judged against it - not just for output but for convenience, consistency and cost. I only wish I could justify it to myself (and my wife  )
Logged
Stephen Best
Guest
« Reply #45 on: January 06, 2007, 06:53:28 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote
My understanding, based on what I've read, is that the machine reads the patches the machine has printed - so if the user sets the machine to print patches in bi-directional mode it will read those and likewise for unidirectional mode. So if drying time per head pass really makes a noticeable difference to anything and the machine allows printing the patches in different modes, one would use the profile consistently under the conditions in which it was created, as one should do with any profiling. Then there should be no issue. But it would be good for someone who knows the detailed mechanics of this process to jump in and correct any errors here. HOWEVER, all that said and done, if HP is correct as Michael quotes them, that drying time is not an issue, perhaps judging from results one should give them the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=94231\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I doubt that the spectro has the resolution to see smearing or bleeding. This is normally something that one can only assess by eye ... but HP may well have come up with a procedure.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2007, 06:54:14 PM by Stephen Best » Logged
Mark D Segal
Contributor
Sr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 6926


WWW
« Reply #46 on: January 06, 2007, 07:06:12 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote
I doubt that the spectro has the resolution to see smearing or bleeding. This is normally something that one can only assess by eye ... but HP may well have come up with a procedure.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=94233\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Stephen, I'm not an insider and I have no technical background in how they designed this process, but based on the results I've seen, and reading what HP put behind the development of this printer, I would be truly surprised if they had not been aware of and dealt with that issue in the design process.

Have you seen this printer at work and what it does? I have, and I think it is truly remarkable. The only thing holding me back from buying one tomorrow is that I'm waiting to see whether HP produces the same product in a 17~18 inch version - that would better suit my needs - and regardless of which one I buy rest assured my wife will not be the one helping me to cart it upstairs..........but my son or son-in-law may  .
Logged

Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
Quentin
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1118



WWW
« Reply #47 on: January 06, 2007, 07:19:09 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote
It is your opinion that piezo is "superior." It is not a fact. Epson has gone the piezo route while Canon and HP have gone the thermal route (and they both introduced inkjet printers in the early '80s long before Epson ever did, but not in the high-quality/photo arena, which Epson pioneered  for desktop in 1994). There are advantages and disadvantages to both. (And BTW, HP also uses piezo heads in other devices for other printing markets.)

And the spectro does not add much to the overall unit cost (HP has told me this).

Harald Johnson
author, "Mastering Digital Printing, Second Edition"
DP&I.com ( http://www.dpandi.com )
digital printing and imaging consultant
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=94169\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Epson went the Piezo route and broke away from the pack.  Coincidence?  Maybe, maybe not. Heating up ink droplets has a number of disadvantages.  It's more dificult to use ink encapsulation technology, for example.   The short lifespan of thermal heads is yet another headache. Its simply not credible that a manufacturer would actually want their printheads to wear out relatively quickly.  Fact is, Canon and HP are stuck with the problem.  The whole replaceable printehead think is just making the best of difficult situation.

As for including a spectro not adding much to the unit cost, how much is not much?  Its got to be a few hundred $$ at least.  Now it might be a great idea but I stand by the view it is necessitated by the whole printhead issue.  

Epson have their own issues such as bronzing and metamerism, and I may well buy one of these HP printers; ultimately it does not matter if the reason they arrived at this place is because of problems or because of design choices.   They are where they are and it looks poretty good.

Quentin
Logged

Quentin Bargate, ARPS, Author, photographer entrepreneur and senior partner of Bargate Murray, Law Firm of the Year 2013
Stephen Best
Guest
« Reply #48 on: January 06, 2007, 07:25:34 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote
Have you seen this printer at work and what it does?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=94236\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I'm not currently in the market for a new printer, just interested in the technology and where things are headed. The Z3100 looks to be a nice printer, and I said so above. Next time around, who knows what I'll buy. It takes a long time to get the best from any printer, know what it can and can't do well so I'd need some real financial and/or quality imperative to move (I run my printers as a business). Paper handling is probably a more significant factor for me in the choice of printer. Irrespective, HP seems to be pushing the right buttons for a lot of people. I'll be monitoring the fallout.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2007, 07:26:46 PM by Stephen Best » Logged
rdonson
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1420


WWW
« Reply #49 on: January 06, 2007, 07:33:32 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote
While Epson can calibrate the printer accurately at the factory...

I've always wondered about the factory calibration that Epson claims to do on every pro printer.  Don't they all arrive dry with no sign that ink has been run through them?
Logged

[span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'][span style='font-family:Arial'][span style='font-family:Geneva'][span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%']Regards,
Ron[/span][/span][/span][/span]
Mark D Segal
Contributor
Sr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 6926


WWW
« Reply #50 on: January 06, 2007, 07:39:00 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote
Epson went the Piezo route and broke away from the pack.  Coincidence?  Maybe, maybe not. Heating up ink droplets has a number of disadvantages.  It's more dificult to use ink encapsulation technology, for example.   The short lifespan of thermal heads is yet another headache. Its simply not credible that a manufacturer would actually want their printheads to wear out relatively quickly.  Fact is, Canon and HP are stuck with the problem.  The whole replaceable printehead think is just making the best of difficult situation.

As for including a spectro not adding much to the unit cost, how much is not much?  Its got to be a few hundred $$ at least.  Now it might be a great idea but I stand by the view it is necessitated by the whole printhead issue. 

Epson have their own issues such as bronzing and metamerism, and I may well buy one of these HP printers; ultimately it does not matter if the reason they arrived at this place is because of problems or because of design choices.   They are where they are and it looks poretty good.

Quentin
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=94237\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Quentin, if you believe what Michael reported in his review, the print heads do not wear out quickly. Furthermore, FWIW I've been using an HP office deskjet (admittedly different animal) quite regularly for the past four and half years and the print heads have not worn out yet, nor do they show any signs of doing so. This issue is a "red-herring". You can stand by your view that the spectro was necessitated by what you call "the printhead issue", but I really think the one has nothing to do with the other. So we'll agree to disagree about that until a technical authority on the design of this printer steps forward with a better answer.   And you are right - it does indeed look pretty good.
Logged

Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
Mark D Segal
Contributor
Sr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 6926


WWW
« Reply #51 on: January 06, 2007, 07:47:00 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote
..............I'd need some real financial and/or quality imperative to move (I run my printers as a business). Paper handling is probably a more significant factor for me in the choice of printer. Irrespective, HP seems to be pushing the right buttons for a lot of people. I'll be monitoring the fallout.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=94239\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Stephen - paper handling is a major issue I can relate to - one aspect of which for me is the ability to profile and use any kind of paper without incurring the horrendous waste of time and ink on the Epson 4800 for every switch between matte and non-matte. That was a HUGE design error on Epson's part. They have largely rectified it with the 3800, but the 3800 strikes me as flimsy and I think the vertical paper feed is a bit finicky. I too will be monitoring peoples' experience with the HP Zs, while I wait a while to see or hear whether HP will produce an 18" model with 12 inks and a spectro.
Logged

Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
Mark D Segal
Contributor
Sr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 6926


WWW
« Reply #52 on: January 06, 2007, 07:54:57 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote
I've always wondered about the factory calibration that Epson claims to do on every pro printer.  Don't they all arrive dry with no sign that ink has been run through them?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=94240\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yes indeed - this has been noted before - and remains a deep, dark mystery in Epson-lore. They are perhaps the only ones who can explain it and they don't usually say too much about how things are done under the hood. (Maybe it is better not to know certain things................  )
Logged

Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
John Hollenberg
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 765


« Reply #53 on: January 06, 2007, 08:18:41 PM »
ReplyReply

The Epsons do have ink run through them at the factory.  I know, because my Epson 9600 came with a few small blobs of color in a couple of the ink lines.  I was assured by others more knowledgeable that this was normal.  Of course, it turned out that the head had to be replaced immediately, so perhaps it wasn't as normal as one would think :-)

--John
Logged
JimGoshorn
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 173



« Reply #54 on: January 07, 2007, 10:39:19 AM »
ReplyReply

One thing I didn't get a clear impression of in Michael's review (thanks Michael) was how does the printer handle linearizing the profiles? Is that part of the calibration process?

Jim
Logged
Haraldo
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 102



WWW
« Reply #55 on: January 07, 2007, 11:54:02 AM »
ReplyReply

Let me jump in here on a couple of points, putting several things together.

[***I still don't see the QUOTE function on my browers -- MARK S., can you email me privately to discuss? I don't want to take up list time with my stupidity]

On the piezo/thermal/heads question: Quentin, I disagree with you on most of your points.
-- It's an urban legend (which I have also promoted) that thermal heats the ink droplets; it doesn't.
-- HP has ink encapsulation.
-- The user-replacability of the printheads is a good thing, not a problem in my view. In reality, the heads will last a long, long time (based on total ink throughput), but at least you have the option to replace them, if you want. Same with Canon. Not with Epson without either a BIG cost or throwing the printer away.
-- Adding the spectro function to the Z3100 has nothing to do with any percieved printhead problems (I have discussed this at length with HP).
Let's just agree to disagree, OK?

On the dry-down/stabilization, all this is user controllable. You can lengthen/shorten the dry-down time. On dry-down for calibration/profiling, HP has determined that 5 mins is all that's required for their inks and calib/profiling protocols. Stephen: I haven't seen smearing or bleeding on my Z3100, which I only recently installed. (FYI, measurement time is adaptive to the density of the measured colors; more time for measuring dark than light colors. HP does not average multiple measurements per patch since the printed colors are very uniform, hence, no need. The in-the-box profiling function reads just under 500 patches for profiles (+ 160 for calibration), but it's open-ended and you can tie into any target size or type you want, up to 7,000 patches if feel like it. Only takes more paper and time, and I think the Advanced Profiling Solution option.

On the issue of calibration in general and Epson ColorBase in particular, now this is an interesting point. Epson has all along communicated that the pro printers are "factory calibrated" and you don't have to worry about it after that. How many times have you printed in a factory, especially theirs? ;-) Seriously, it's fairly apparent to me that all printers change over time. Parts wear, the printing environment changes, etc. Let me say right here that I know very little about ColorBase (in fact, if you search on Epson sites for it, you get nothing). Apparently, it's a software solution that helps you -- DUH -- calibrate your printer! (someone please correct me if I'm wrong) HP has been offering this since 2004 starting with the DJ130. Maybe Epson is finally realizing that they need to change their tune on this point? I dunno, just theorizing. And where is Canon on this?

All for now. Gotta install a new dishwasher.

Harald
Logged

Haraldo
aka Harald Johnson
Phoozl - photo games & more
Mark D Segal
Contributor
Sr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 6926


WWW
« Reply #56 on: January 07, 2007, 12:29:56 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote
Let me jump in here on a couple of points, putting several things together.

[***I still don't see the QUOTE function on my browers -- MARK S., can you email me privately to discuss? I don't want to take up list time with my stupidity]


On the issue of calibration in general and Epson ColorBase in particular, now this is an interesting point. Epson has all along communicated that the pro printers are "factory calibrated" and you don't have to worry about it after that. How many times have you printed in a factory, especially theirs? ;-) Seriously, it's fairly apparent to me that all printers change over time. Parts wear, the printing environment changes, etc. Let me say right here that I know very little about ColorBase (in fact, if you search on Epson sites for it, you get nothing). Apparently, it's a software solution that helps you -- DUH -- calibrate your printer! (someone please correct me if I'm wrong) HP has been offering this since 2004 starting with the DJ130. Maybe Epson is finally realizing that they need to change their tune on this point? I dunno, just theorizing. And where is Canon on this?

All for now. Gotta install a new dishwasher.

Harald
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Harald, I'm sending you a separate, illustrated, email on "Quote-Reply". Once you're finished installing the dishwasher, have a look - that should do it for you.

Re Epson ColorBase, Michael reviewed it on this website some time ago. You can be forgiven for not finding ColorBase - it's not made available in North America, but is elsewhere - and Michael notes that as well. Here's his review:

[a href=\"http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/software/epson-colorbase.shtml]http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/...colorbase.shtml[/url]

I don't think any of that changes anything either of us have been saying about the issues raised in this thread.

Cheers,

Mark
Logged

Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
hdierolf
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 6


« Reply #57 on: January 07, 2007, 01:34:00 PM »
ReplyReply

Thanks for the in debt review. Your efforts are much appreciated.

From the specs that HP publishes it appears that the printer has a native resolution of 600x600 DPI and then it says 2400x1200 optimized. I read this to mean that the 2400x1200 resolution is achieved through software interpolation. If I understand this correctly the HP Z3100 would then by far not have the precision that the Epsons have.

Could you please comment on this?
Logged
Dan Wells
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 334


WWW
« Reply #58 on: January 07, 2007, 01:46:22 PM »
ReplyReply

Has anyone yet tried profiling this machine with an external spectro? I just wonder if HP's small test charts are getting all that it is capable of. My Canon iPF5000 benefits noticeably from the massive Atkinson 4096 test chart (using a slightly modified copy of EyeOne Match), as compared to the 918 patch chart that ships with the EyeOne, The benefit isn't huge, but it's there at the margins, and fine art printing is a game of extracting the last bit our systems are capable of! I was a little disappointed when I noted in Michael's review that even the "advanced profiling" option package only permitted a thousand patch chart. 1000 patches is still a small to medium sized test chart (I'd call anything under 1000 small, 1000 to 2000 or so medium, 2000 to 4096 large, and anything above 4096 really huge). Printers do seem to benefit from larger test charts, and it would take a linear printer indeed (and an easily profiled paper) for 500 patches to be fully adequate for all uses. Maybe HP has built a printer so linear that it really only needs a small test chart, but this is a potential limitation I'd love to see some z3100 owner (who also owns an EyeOne or some other profiling package) test...

                                                      -Dan
Logged
abiggs
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 550



WWW
« Reply #59 on: January 07, 2007, 02:01:11 PM »
ReplyReply

Dan, in my experience more patches does not equal a bigger reproducible gamut. I have found that the gradations within the gamut are better, especially in more vivid colors that are brighter.

$.02
Logged

Andy Biggs
http://www.andybiggs.com
Africa Photo Safaris | Workshops | Fine Art Prints
Pages: « 1 2 [3] 4 5 »   Top of Page
Print
Jump to:  

Ad
Ad
Ad