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Author Topic: Is there any chance that Phase-one will built  (Read 23195 times)
marcwilson
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« Reply #40 on: January 12, 2007, 10:34:02 AM »
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To save Yair from too much typing:

http://www.bjp-online.com/public/showPage.html?page=429376
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Mort54
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« Reply #41 on: January 27, 2007, 10:07:11 PM »
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Really? Take a look at http://www.bjp-online.com/public/showPage.html?page=429376
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=95175\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

As far as I can tell, the only thing the BJP article says is that the F&H Hy6 body will be branded by Rollie, Leaf and Sinar. Leaf and Sinar are obviously interested in selling the body along with their respective backs as a bundle, but since Rollie doesn't make any backs, they are presumably free to work with any other back maker, including Phase. I don't see how this article in any way "proves", or even suggests, that a Phase back won't be available for a Rollie branded version. Also, keep in mind that the article is mostly unsubstantiated speculation based on unnamed sources.

Regarding the supposed Jenoptic connection, and how they allegedly want to freeze out Phase by recouping their investment by using the Hy6 to sell Sinar backs, that doesn't make much sense, given that Leaf is also going to sell their own version. Isn't Leaf a competitor to Sinar? If the Jenoptic connection were true, why would they let Leaf sell their own branded version. And finally, I thought Leica was now the majority share holder of Sinar, not Jenoptic. So how exactly does Jenoptic fit into this again?
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mcfoto
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« Reply #42 on: January 28, 2007, 02:05:20 AM »
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Regarding the supposed Jenoptik connection, and how they allegedly want to freeze out Phase by recouping their investment by using the Hy6 to sell Sinar backs, that doesn't make much sense, given that Leaf is also going to sell their own version. Isn't Leaf a competitor to Sinar? If the Jenoptik connection were true, why would they let Leaf sell their own branded version. And finally, I thought Leica was now the majority share holder of Sinar, not Jenoptik. So how exactly does Jenoptik fit into this again?
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Hi
Jenoptik owns Sinar ( the Leica deal fell through ). Jenoptik owns the Hy6 and put 4 million Euros into that camera, it is their camera. Yes Leaf has a licence to the Hy6. Jenoptik has also signed a working relationship with Leaf. The Sinar back is actually a Jenoptik back with a Sinar badge. The way I see it is that Jenoptik wants to increase the market share of Sinar by not allowing Phase on board. Finally Leaf & Sinar used to work together 7 years ago. This is a way of gaining market share. Hasselblad is doing the same with the H3D 22,31 & 39.

[a href=\"http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:rwHbBbzJ_7oJ:www.leaf-photography.com/files/Press%2520Releases/Leaf-Janoptiks_Cooperation.pdf+jenoptik+and+Leaf&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4]http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:rwHbBb...en&ct=clnk&cd=4[/url]
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« Reply #43 on: January 28, 2007, 04:51:16 AM »
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This is my first post to the forum and it's a shame it's a little negative. I just want to second those who say wait for the Rollei Hy whatever to come out properly and be used in anger for a few months before getting too excited (I have "played" with one and the shutter sounds exactly like my old 6008). The only cameras I've ever owned that I could rely on 99.999% of the time were my Mamiya RZs. I owned three Rolleis, a 6008,6006 and an SLX. Many a shoot was finished on the SLX because the other two had died that day!! In my opinion Rollei had woeful electronics ( yes the lenses were good) and it would take a time for me to trust them again. I'm not a war photographer and treated those cameras with kid gloves but they still died......
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Graham Mitchell
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« Reply #44 on: January 28, 2007, 06:52:23 AM »
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I have "played" with one and the shutter sounds exactly like my old 6008

Hmm... these cameras don't have shutters!
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william
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« Reply #45 on: January 28, 2007, 08:06:31 AM »
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I assume he means the mirror slap sounds the same as on the 6008.

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Hmm... these cameras don't have shutters!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=97900\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Mort54
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« Reply #46 on: January 28, 2007, 09:05:11 AM »
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Jenoptik owns the Hy6 and put 4 million Euros into that camera, it is their camera.

Sorry, I'm not buying that. Or put another way, I'll believe it when I see it. There has been a lot of uninformed speculation on the subject IMHO. Michael, who's very well connected, has been indicating that Phase will be available for Hy6, so unless he's retracted his statements to that effect, that seems the most plausible route.
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Khun_K
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« Reply #47 on: January 28, 2007, 09:09:27 AM »
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I have been using Contax 645 since its introduction with film, and P25 and P45 until today, very pleases with how the camera works and the results. I am continue to hope once Zeiss resolved their issue of Contax with Kyocera, Zeiss will continue to build the 645 with someone, may be Cosina??
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DavidLondon
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« Reply #48 on: January 28, 2007, 09:57:32 AM »
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I assume he means the mirror slap sounds the same as on the 6008.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=97907\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Spot on. That's what I meant, though there are shutters in each lens so the noise of the mirror combines with that of the shutter.
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Carl Glover
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« Reply #49 on: January 28, 2007, 10:43:26 AM »
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Spot on. That's what I meant, though there are shutters in each lens so the noise of the mirror combines with that of the shutter.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=97922\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Music to my ears!

The shutter in the lens is very quiet however, I'm interested in hearing the sound without film advance. My 6008 with eMotion e22 still has the motor advancing non-existent film after firing the shutter. I've heard that the motor is disabled with Phase P20s.

Late 6008s are very reliable. No problems at this end - I've got three bodies and nine lenses so feel a tad qualified.

Even though it is being mentioned that Phase might be excluded, I think that would be a shame if it turns out to be true. We should be able to be free to choose what currently available back goes on our camera - just like we do with film. I hope that Michael is correct on this matter.

I guess we'll have to wait and see...
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pss
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« Reply #50 on: January 28, 2007, 04:18:36 PM »
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the early 6008s had some electronic problems...the later ones have no problems at all...

i still would like to see exactly WHERE anyone NOT connected with sinar or leaf or any other competition to phase has made any statement about phase not being supported....no statement from rollei or phase or anyone who actually matters....just because there is no announcement yet for a camera not even available yet does not mean it will not support phase! this is crazy! yair and mr.sinar come here and make vague statements about things they have no control over and some people read things into these statements and write posts that seem to state facts where there aren't any!

so please anyone with any actual statement from either rollei or phase denying any future compatibility please come forward....no third party, no competitors please....
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hcubell
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« Reply #51 on: January 28, 2007, 05:21:24 PM »
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the early 6008s had some electronic problems...the later ones have no problems at all...

i still would like to see exactly WHERE anyone NOT connected with sinar or leaf or any other competition to phase has made any statement about phase not being supported....no statement from rollei or phase or anyone who actually matters....just because there is no announcement yet for a camera not even available yet does not mean it will not support phase! this is crazy! yair and mr.sinar come here and make vague statements about things they have no control over and some people read things into these statements and write posts that seem to state facts where there aren't any!

so please anyone with any actual statement from either rollei or phase denying any future compatibility please come forward....no third party, no competitors please....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=97978\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Everyone that we KNOW is involved with the Hy6 says that the only MFDBs for the Hy6/AFi will be those from Sinar and Leaf, and the silence from Phase itself is deafening and the most telling of all. Don't you think they would be happy to announce that they are part of the program, if they were? Sinar and Leaf bought exclusivity by putting up the money for the development costs for the Hy6 and signing , and now they are doing exactly what Hasselblad did with the H3D. It's a fierce marketplace out there.
As for a statement from "anyone who matters", please note that Jenoptic owns Sinar and Sinar, in addition to selling the Hy6 for its MFDBs, has also signed on as the exclusive distributor for Rollei Professional products, so I would think they know a bit about the Rollei branded version of the Hy6 and what backs will fit it.
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eronald
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« Reply #52 on: January 28, 2007, 05:41:26 PM »
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One of the interesting positive things is that the guys at Francke & Heidecke including the CEO, at Photokina, behaved as people, rather than autistic geeks. They give straight direct answers and treated everyone like *potential customers*. So far what they've promised I have seen them hold to. I'm inclined to cut them some slack because of this open attitude. I'm not saying they can do the impossible, but I think they can build a decent camera, and with Leaf on board for a version, I don't think they'll make any obvious mistakes.

So far so good.

Edmund
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pss
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« Reply #53 on: January 29, 2007, 03:55:36 PM »
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Everyone that we KNOW is involved with the Hy6 says that the only MFDBs for the Hy6/AFi will be those from Sinar and Leaf, and the silence from Phase itself is deafening and the most telling of all. Don't you think they would be happy to announce that they are part of the program, if they were? Sinar and Leaf bought exclusivity by putting up the money for the development costs for the Hy6 and signing , and now they are doing exactly what Hasselblad did with the H3D. It's a fierce marketplace out there.
As for a statement from "anyone who matters", please note that Jenoptic owns Sinar and Sinar, in addition to selling the Hy6 for its MFDBs, has also signed on as the exclusive distributor for Rollei Professional products, so I would think they know a bit about the Rollei branded version of the Hy6 and what backs will fit it.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=97984\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

so now sinar and leaf put up the money to finance the Hy6? where did that come from? sinar is the new us distributor for rollei and leaf has a body made to fit their backs...sinar now owns a part of franke&heidecke...honestly i lost oversight of who actually owns franke&h...but sinar and leaf did not finance the development of the Hy6....
all sinar and leaf are saying that THEIR AFis and Sinar Hy6 won't accept phase backs...no surprise....
anyway we will know more in a year from now...i am confident i will be able to attach a phase back to a Hy6 then.....which is also what a phase rep told me....which really does not mean anything...

PS: i just got an email from sinar with their new announcements....the Hy6 in there as well...listed as one of 7 features is the "open interface for user-friendly back adaptations" ...yes this sounds like a closed system....
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rainer_v
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« Reply #54 on: January 29, 2007, 04:30:30 PM »
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.....which is also what a phase rep told me....which really does not mean anything...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=98171\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
well it means something and this it means "real":
maybe  the phase rep would like to sell phase backs now and he dont care too much what will happen in one year.
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rainer viertlböck
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pss
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« Reply #55 on: January 29, 2007, 04:37:42 PM »
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well it means something and this it means "real":
maybe  the phase rep would like to sell phase backs now and he dont care too much what will happen in one year.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=98179\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

that was my point....
and that is why i don't listen to what leaf or sinar reps say about their competition either....
but i do think the email announcement pretty much sums it up...
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hcubell
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« Reply #56 on: January 29, 2007, 04:40:21 PM »
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so now sinar and leaf put up the money to finance the Hy6? where did that come from? sinar is the new us distributor for rollei and leaf has a body made to fit their backs...sinar now owns a part of franke&heidecke...honestly i lost oversight of who actually owns franke&h...but sinar and leaf did not finance the development of the Hy6....
all sinar and leaf are saying that THEIR AFis and Sinar Hy6 won't accept phase backs...no surprise....
anyway we will know more in a year from now...i am confident i will be able to attach a phase back to a Hy6 then.....which is also what a phase rep told me....which really does not mean anything...
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Please take a look at [a href=\"http://www.bjp-online.com/public/showPage.html?page=429376]http://www.bjp-online.com/public/showPage.html?page=429376[/url].
I suppose BJP or its sources could be lying and we should bring in Oliver Stone to sort it out, but it all seems clear to me. Jenoptik owns Sinar, Jenoptik hired F&H to develop the Hy6 using Rollei tooling and know how to get a great platform for ITS backs, Jenoptik paid the development costs, Leaf joined in and agreed to buy a minimum number of Hy6s for its backs and perhaps shared some of the upfront costs with Jenoptik, Jenoptik (and perhaps Leaf) have full control over whose backs will mount on the Hy6s, and they don't want Phase backs on the Hy6s because they want to put Phase out of business just like Toyota wants to put GM and Ford out of business. Jenoptik has zero interest in making you happy. They want you to regret buying a Phase back rather than a Sinar back. And they are no more interested in being a camera company in the service of Phase owners than Hasselblad is. The money is in the digital side, where the profit margins are high and users regulalrly upgrade.
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« Reply #57 on: January 29, 2007, 05:41:06 PM »
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I was wondering,if a company like KaptureGroup could make an  Phase - Hy6 adapter?
Or would they get sued?

I just purchased an eMotion-75,therefore I don't have any issues,however I also believe it would be great if the Hy6 was available for all MFDB's.

My reason for this?

The more Hy6's they sell,more new lenses and accessories will become available sooner.

Cheers,

Willem.
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Willem Rethmeier
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Graham Mitchell
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« Reply #58 on: January 29, 2007, 06:47:19 PM »
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sinar now owns a part of franke&heidecke...

No, F&H is owned by its own management, afaik. Jenoptik has controlling interest in Sinar.

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all sinar and leaf are saying that THEIR AFis and Sinar Hy6 won't accept phase backs...no surprise....

I've never seen this. Can you provide a link to such a statement? From all I've read it still seems that the interface will be universal. The cameras will be identical. If so, the backs will be interchangeable too.

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listed as one of 7 features is the "open interface for user-friendly back adaptations" ...yes this sounds like a closed system....

Sounds good.
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Mort54
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« Reply #59 on: January 29, 2007, 09:19:47 PM »
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Jenoptik owns Sinar, Jenoptik hired F&H to develop the Hy6.....Jenoptik (and perhaps Leaf) have full control over whose backs will mount on the Hy6s, and they don't want Phase backs on the Hy6s because they want to put Phase out of business
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=98181\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

You have a vivid imagination. There has not been one shred of evidence offered by you that supports these rather presumtious statements. The BJP article ONLY says that Rollei, Leaf and Sinar will sell branded versions of the F&H Hy6. The F&H documentation I've seen suggests they own the Hy6 design, not Jenoptik. You go on and on about how Jenoptic owns the design because they put 4 million euros into it. 4 milliion euros is a pittance, and I doubt it's anywhere near enough to buy the design outright. 4 million euros, assuming they really put in 4 million euros at all, is at best only the licensing fee to allow Jenoptik to sell a Sinar-branded version of the Hy6. Nothing more.

Bottom line - you make very presumptious statements as if they were facts, without offering a shred of proof. The BJP article doesn't prove anything, and in fact suggests something much narrower than your assertions. At this point, the people who do know the facts aren't talking.

Just because you believe something is true doesn't make it true. When you have proof that Jenoptik paid 4 million euros to F&H, and when you have proof that Jenoptik owns the Hy6 design, and when you have proof that Jenoptic somehow has veto power over whether Phase backs can appear on the Hy6, and when you have proof that Phase backs won't appear on a Hy6, then post it. But until then, you're just engaged in speculation like the rest of us are.
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