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Author Topic: Solid State vs Hard Drive storage  (Read 22801 times)
John Swearingen
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« Reply #40 on: January 17, 2007, 10:03:01 AM »
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There is one option that would make the Hyper Drive almost perfect: Hot swapable connections for the 2.5 inch drives.
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ahhhh...could you explain this in English to a simple photographer?

John
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Tim Gray
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« Reply #41 on: January 17, 2007, 11:13:09 AM »
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ahhhh...could you explain this in English to a simple photographer?

John
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Hot swappable: you run out of HD space in the middle of copying a card.  Plug in a new HD and it picks up right where the other left off.

FWIW I think this doesn't make a lot of sense, particularly the "hot" part.  If you run out of space, plug in a new hd and just copy the entire card over again.   Having said that, plugging drives in and out in the field isn't all that attractive.  Given the low cost of a bare Hyperdrive make sure the original disk is as big as possible and take a second one.   I suppose there's still the issue of backups - just copying the card to the drive doesn't create a back up.  If you're on a trip and shoot more than 120 gig of material, and need to back it all up then that's a different problem, you probably need a laptop with external USB or SATA drives.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2007, 11:13:32 AM by Tim Gray » Logged
dwdallam
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« Reply #42 on: January 17, 2007, 08:42:19 PM »
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Hot swappable: you run out of HD space in the middle of copying a card.  Plug in a new HD and it picks up right where the other left off.

FWIW I think this doesn't make a lot of sense, particularly the "hot" part.  If you run out of space, plug in a new hd and just copy the entire card over again.   Having said that, plugging drives in and out in the field isn't all that attractive.  Given the low cost of a bare Hyperdrive make sure the original disk is as big as possible and take a second one.   I suppose there's still the issue of backups - just copying the card to the drive doesn't create a back up.  If you're on a trip and shoot more than 120 gig of material, and need to back it all up then that's a different problem, you probably need a laptop with external USB or SATA drives.
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It's not necessarily take it out in the middle of a write session. It's simply like having the ability on the HyperDrive to plug in another external hard drive by a USB cable.

So what you would do is buy a 2.5 inch hard drive and an external enclosure. For a 120GB 2.5 and the external enclosure, you're looking at about 90.00US for the drive and 20.00US for the enclosure. Then you just plug that into any USB port and you have more HD space. That's about 160.00 cheaper than a new Hyperdrive. So it's not really "hot swappable" but "external" drive friendly. After all, the Hyperdrive is an external hard drive with the capability to automatically download the files into itself.

So two HypDrs with 120GB HDs would be 600.00US. If they had a USB connector you could buy one bare HypDr (no hard drive) for 150.00US and two 120GB 2.5 drives with external enclosures for around 220.00US for a total of 350.00. So the price of two HypDr is about double that. This USB to HypDr also solves the problem of a backup copy.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2007, 08:45:28 PM by dwdallam » Logged

feppe
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« Reply #43 on: January 17, 2007, 09:13:58 PM »
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It's not necessarily take it out in the middle of a write session. It's simply like having the ability on the HyperDrive to plug in another external hard drive by a USB cable.

So what you would do is buy a 2.5 inch hard drive and an external enclosure. For a 120GB 2.5 and the external enclosure, you're looking at about 90.00US for the drive and 20.00US for the enclosure. Then you just plug that into any USB port and you have more HD space. That's about 160.00 cheaper than a new Hyperdrive. So it's not really "hot swappable" but "external" drive friendly. After all, the Hyperdrive is an external hard drive with the capability to automatically download the files into itself.

So two HypDrs with 120GB HDs would be 600.00US. If they had a USB connector you could buy one bare HypDr (no hard drive) for 150.00US and two 120GB 2.5 drives with external enclosures for around 220.00US for a total of 350.00. So the price of two HypDr is about double that. This USB to HypDr also solves the problem of a backup copy.
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Sounds like a viable solution but which only a very tiny portion of the most hardcore photography gadget geeks would use, ie. no market for it.

There's really no backup problem with HyperDrives or similar solutions: just buy two of them and copy the card twice. Sure, it's costlier than the solution you propose, but it actually exists.

BTW, prices of 2.5" HDDs are the same per gigabyte for 120GB and 160GB, so no reason to buy 120s unless you're short on money. 200GBs are considerably more expensive, though.
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dwdallam
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« Reply #44 on: January 18, 2007, 12:29:52 AM »
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Sounds like a viable solution but which only a very tiny portion of the most hardcore photography gadget geeks would use, ie. no market for it.

There's really no backup problem with HyperDrives or similar solutions: just buy two of them and copy the card twice. Sure, it's costlier than the solution you propose, but it actually exists.

BTW, prices of 2.5" HDDs are the same per gigabyte for 120GB and 160GB, so no reason to buy 120s unless you're short on money. 200GBs are considerably more expensive, though.
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It's not a geek thing. You can buy a totally enclosed 120GB 2.5 inch hard drive at Costco or online for slightly more. Then you just plug it into a USB port on the Hyper.  In other words, the Hyper Drive could come with a USB port, and everyone knows how to use that. I was just using the "make your own" enclosure/HD as an exmaple of how flexible having a USB port on the hyper would be. Having two has its advantages however, since you are creating a redundant backup systems, not just hard drives. Those things aren't cheap though.
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feppe
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« Reply #45 on: January 18, 2007, 08:09:02 AM »
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It's not a geek thing. You can buy a totally enclosed 120GB 2.5 inch hard drive at Costco or online for slightly more. Then you just plug it into a USB port on the Hyper.  In other words, the Hyper Drive could come with a USB port, and everyone knows how to use that. I was just using the "make your own" enclosure/HD as an exmaple of how flexible having a USB port on the hyper would be. Having two has its advantages however, since you are creating a redundant backup systems, not just hard drives. Those things aren't cheap though.
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It's not as simple. In addition to a USB port HyperDrive would have to have an extra HDD controller, be able to control and communicate the other HDD through the USB port. The UI would have to be redesigned to enable copying to/from the external HDD. HyperDrive does have a USB port - that's how it connects to a computer - but that's not enough as you need both hardware and software changes.

I'm sure the above changes wouldn't be too difficult to implement, but again, I have the feeling that market for such a bastard product would be miniscule. Most people who require double-backups do it either by attaching to their laptop when they get back home, or by buying two HyperDrives or similar products.
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Jonathan Wienke
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« Reply #46 on: January 18, 2007, 10:52:41 AM »
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The whole idea of the Hyperdrive having a USB port to daisy-chain is kind of absurd. A card reader is less expensive than a drive controller, and then there is the extra UI complexity the have the Hyperdrive cntrol the other drive, and (worst of all) the fact that you're burning the batteries on both units even though you're only downloading data into one. If you want redundancy or extra storage, just get another hyperdrive. You're better off in so many ways, and it isn't really going to cost more when everything is taken into consideration.
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mtselman
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« Reply #47 on: January 18, 2007, 11:40:09 AM »
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The whole idea of the Hyperdrive having a USB port to daisy-chain is kind of absurd. A card reader is less expensive than a drive controller, and then there is the extra UI complexity the have the Hyperdrive cntrol the other drive, and (worst of all) the fact that you're burning the batteries on both units even though you're only downloading data into one. If you want redundancy or extra storage, just get another hyperdrive. You're better off in so many ways, and it isn't really going to cost more when everything is taken into consideration.
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And just to add to that, the daisy-chain solution with one Hyperdrive and one plain enclosed drive still suffers from the "single point of failure" problem. If your Hyperdrive fails mid-trip, you won't be able to back up your cards to the other drive as it won't have card-reading capabilities.

 --Misha
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fastcat
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« Reply #48 on: January 20, 2007, 01:16:11 PM »
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I have still another suggestion that would give you hard drive redundancy and MP-3 capability for less than $500.

I am an advocate of portable hard drives, having used a 30GB FlashTrax for several years in Africa and India. It had bad battery life but was otherwise very reliable. I recently upgraded to an 80GB Wolverine MVP, which seems to have excellent battery life. It has a color screen and is also an MP-3 player. Costco has been selling them for $250.

After reading this and other threads, I'm thinking of adding a Hyperdrive SPACE to give me redundancy for an upcoming trip to southern Africa. It looks like a bare enclosure with a 60GB Seagate drive can be had for just over $200. An 80GB drive should only add $20 or so.

John
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feppe
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« Reply #49 on: January 20, 2007, 02:15:52 PM »
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After reading this and other threads, I'm thinking of adding a Hyperdrive SPACE to give me redundancy for an upcoming trip to southern Africa. It looks like a bare enclosure with a 60GB Seagate drive can be had for just over $200. An 80GB drive should only add $20 or so.
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I don't know where you get your prices, but 2.5" drives cost 1 per gig here in Europe (for 100 and 160GB drives), and computer hardware is significantly more expensive here than US. You can buy an external HDD enclosure with 60GB HDD for about half the price you're quoting.

If you buy them bundled (as a ready-made package) they're generally more expensive, which is the same case with HyperDrives. Buy the casing-only and get the HDD yourself. Installing is a breeze and easy with the instructions that come with the casing.
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D. King
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« Reply #50 on: January 20, 2007, 08:22:21 PM »
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I'm going to Tibet for a month this summer, in areas where electricity, much less computers, will be hard to find. I will have to rely on what I take with me for storage and back-up of images.  I will need to travel light--heavy gear gets REALLY heavy when you are gasping for air!

I'm a little wary of bringing a hard-drive device, such as the Epson P-4000.  The roads are rough, and a broken hard-drive would be a disaster.  Also, I've heard that hard-drives may have trouble at high altitudes, since they run on a cushion of air.

I've begun looking at solid state devices that would work in the field.  The iPod, with a card reader, seems an easy choice: 80 gigs, tough and reliable.  Though it's not great for handling images, my primary interest is in downloading my flash cards; the trip will be very busy, and managing of the images will come after my return.   One disadvantage may be speed...the iPod and card reader would be relatively slow.

Another disadvantage is that there would be no way to make a second or third back-up.  If the iPod were lost, stolen or malfunctioned, everything would be gone.

Does anyone have suggestions?

Thanks,
John
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If you're concerned about HDDs not working at high altitudes, I recently read that SanDisk has developed a flash unit in the 130 GB range.  These are supposedly the first in a series that will one day replace mechanical HDDs in our computers.

I'm not sure if it's on the market yet but I would suggest talking to SanDisk to see what's up with this.
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feppe
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« Reply #51 on: January 20, 2007, 08:38:01 PM »
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If you're concerned about HDDs not working at high altitudes, I recently read that SanDisk has developed a flash unit in the 130 GB range.  These are supposedly the first in a series that will one day replace mechanical HDDs in our computers.

I'm not sure if it's on the market yet but I would suggest talking to SanDisk to see what's up with this.
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I'm guessing you're referring to the SSD. They are currently available at a measly 32GB (not 130GB) for a hefty $600 or so to OEMs only:

[a href=\"http://www.sandisk.com/Oem/Default.aspx?CatID=1477]http://www.sandisk.com/Oem/Default.aspx?CatID=1477[/url]
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D. King
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« Reply #52 on: January 20, 2007, 11:43:54 PM »
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I'm guessing you're referring to the SSD. They are currently available at a measly 32GB (not 130GB) for a hefty $600 or so to OEMs only:

http://www.sandisk.com/Oem/Default.aspx?CatID=1477
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Yes, my bad.  But the report said they could be coming down in price pretty fast.  Maybe not fast enough for John's trip to Tibet but....
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dwdallam
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« Reply #53 on: January 21, 2007, 12:04:49 AM »
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It's really not relevant at this point, but to reply to both Jonathan and Feppe, the idea of having a bare HyperDrive that accepts USB connected hard drives is quite simple and could be included in the hardware main board easily. However, just as an example, they could make a unit that does not accept hard drives, but only USB 2.5 inch external HDs--one at a time. Now there is no more UI problem than the original unit--it sees all hard drives as ONE drive and copies files like it normally would to each drive. In fact, you can do that right now if you want to remove the hard drive from the unit and plug in another one. So there is no more "controllers" that need to be accounted for. There are several other ways that hardware engineers could accomplish this easy task with little additional cost, if any, such as a switch that shuts the onboard hard drive off when another is detected on the USB port. No one is talking about "chaining" hard drives together--that would be absurd because you only need one at a time for backup purposes.

True enough, having two HyPer Drives is better than one because of the HyD redundancy. But we were talking about cost also. If I had the money I'd hire young female models to accompany my on all my trips and teach them how to download the cards into my 5, 000 dollar laptops. And while were at it, I'll take two 1DSMIIs also, for redundancy. Just joking of course, but it's not just about what is best, but what is affordable.
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fastcat
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« Reply #54 on: January 21, 2007, 10:02:21 AM »
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I don't know where you get your prices, but 2.5" drives cost 1 per gig here in Europe (for 100 and 160GB drives), and computer hardware is significantly more expensive here than US. You can buy an external HDD enclosure with 60GB HDD for about half the price you're quoting.

If you buy them bundled (as a ready-made package) they're generally more expensive, which is the same case with HyperDrives. Buy the casing-only and get the HDD yourself. Installing is a breeze and easy with the instructions that come with the casing.
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I was talking about the HyperDrive SPACE bare case, which goes for $149 on the HyperDrive site, not a simple HD enclosure. Comp USA is offering a 60GB Seagate drive this week for $60. My supposition is that a simple search may produce a similar price for an 80GB drive.

John
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dwdallam
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« Reply #55 on: January 23, 2007, 04:43:35 AM »
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I just received my HyD 80GB from Adorama. It works, but there are some things people should know before buying.

Pro: Solid feeling nice casing.

Con: In order to take the battery out for replacement or alternate battery when it goes dead, you will need a small phillips type jewelers screw driver (provided) because the screws (4) they use are those little tiny itsy bitsy screws used in eyeglasses. I cannot figure out why they did this. It would have been just as easy to put small allen wrench type screws in, or for that matter, small thumbscrews that requiere no tools. What would have been even better is a snap out battery slot. Who knows why they enclosed the battery in a way that is so hard to get to it. Also, the entire unit is opened, hard drive and all, just to change the battery. It's obvious that swapping the unit's battery is NOT meant to be done, unless it won't hold a charge and needs replacing.

Pro: They sell an external battery back for 10.00US that uses 4 AA batteries.


On the other hand, the Canon batteires for the 5D and 30D will last I think about 300 shots? So you're gonna burn through 3 1/3 batteries for each 1 GB of images you shoot, so the HypD's 100GB transfer per internal charge is NOT going to be a problem, simply becsaue you can't carry enough camera batteries to keep up with the HyperD in the first place. You'll run out of camera use before the HyperD. So I guess teh battery thing isn't that big of a deal.
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feppe
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« Reply #56 on: January 23, 2007, 09:36:57 AM »
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I just received my HyD 80GB from Adorama. It works, but there are some things people should know before buying.

Pro: Solid feeling nice casing.

Con: In order to take the battery out for replacement or alternate battery when it goes dead, you will need a small phillips type jewelers screw driver (provided) because the screws (4) they use are those little tiny itsy bitsy screws used in eyeglasses. I cannot figure out why they did this. It would have been just as easy to put small allen wrench type screws in, or for that matter, small thumbscrews that requiere no tools. What would have been even better is a snap out battery slot. Who knows why they enclosed the battery in a way that is so hard to get to it. Also, the entire unit is opened, hard drive and all, just to change the battery. It's obvious that swapping the unit's battery is NOT meant to be done, unless it won't hold a charge and needs replacing.

Pro: They sell an external battery back for 10.00US that uses 4 AA batteries.
On the other hand, the Canon batteires for the 5D and 30D will last I think about 300 shots? So you're gonna burn through 3 1/3 batteries for each 1 GB of images you shoot, so the HypD's 100GB transfer per internal charge is NOT going to be a problem, simply becsaue you can't carry enough camera batteries to keep up with the HyperD in the first place. You'll run out of camera use before the HyperD. So I guess teh battery thing isn't that big of a deal.
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A battery that is not user-changeable (easily) seems to be a current trend, unfortunately. At least changing the battery on HyperDrive is easier than on an iPod. The main consolations are the extremely long battery life and the fact that Li-ion batteries can be recharged hundreds of times before losing a significant amount of power.
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BlackeyCole
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« Reply #57 on: January 25, 2007, 05:43:43 PM »
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If it was me, I would contact Sandisk, Lexar, and Hyperspace and see if they would loan you a setup or sell you one a discounted price for your testomonial and review upon your return from the trip.  You have several unique areas that would not normally be availble for a field test all rolled up in one.  Altitue and remoteness from common power.  If you agree to return the item with a review/testimonial if they loan you one it would benifit them to let you do a field test of the extremes.  It would require some extra effort on your part to keep a log of your activity with each item and then compoise a article and testimonial upon your return.  It would be great for their sales if their system holds up under your trip.  It would help sell them to other extremist photographers and journalist.

I will have to look into the Hyperspace unit when the funds become available it would be great for backing up my photos onsite when I do event Photography.  It would also allow me to carry a full library along with me to sell photos from previous events  since the same indiviuals tend to be at the same type of events.  I have had several ask me for photos from an earlier event which I did have with me and they wanted to see them before they bought them.  And not everyone wants to order from a web site.

I thin the perfect way would if it could read one of the viewer type devices and that would be your second backup.  That way you could view you first back up on the view to ensure it was copied correctly and themn copy that file over to the hyperspace that way you know you have two good copies before erasing the CF Card.

 My workflow currently has me making a CD/DVD(depending on size needed) and then using Downloader Pro to make the directory structure and rename the images using my custom naming conventions to my working library, I then back up that data to another disk, then edit and delete images til I get my desire proofs, present the proofs to the client, take the ordrs and process the images per the clients requests deliver the final images to the client then I archive the while shoot to a single compressed file.  So now I I have at least four copies of any fianl image the original on the first CD/DVD, the renamed version on another CD.DVD and then a PSD and Final output copy in the compressed file.  If I need to retrieve an image for future use I got to the compressed file and retrive it , it I need to make changes ie different output size I use the pds coy to resize the image and output to a new tiff or jpeg depending on use, if not I retireve the original final image and create a copy of it .  If I have problems witht he compressed file I cna always start over with either of the cd/copies and since I know for a fact the original cd is valid I always have it to use and never have to worry about it being bad and not knowing it was curropted.
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feppe
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« Reply #58 on: January 25, 2007, 05:55:22 PM »
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Please note that none of the HyperDrive models have a viewing screen. The screen is for the UI only. All models have several verification schemes, from none to partial to full.
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WarrenRoos
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« Reply #59 on: February 15, 2007, 07:32:39 PM »
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Please note that none of the HyperDrive models have a viewing screen. The screen is for the UI only. All models have several verification schemes, from none to partial to full.
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I had a HyperDrive and sold it on Ebay. It's SLLLOOWWW boxy and big and while it worked with no problem it is very old school. Had the interface flavor of an 1986 Russian Dos product.
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