Ad
Ad
Ad
Pages: « 1 [2] 3 4 »   Bottom of Page
Print
Author Topic: PhaseOne or Hasselblad/Imacon?  (Read 17266 times)
rainer_v
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1130


WWW
« Reply #20 on: January 14, 2007, 06:04:26 AM »
ReplyReply

i dont believe at all that the next back generation will be 6x6, but i really dont want to start another (useless) topic about this speculations...
if you want a smart little setup go for a 12" pb mac. they are very nice little laptops for tethered shooting if the setup should be little.
if the p3 is too big  the contax 645 is a fine working system with electronic bus for backs ( phase, leaf and sinar are using it, dont know bout imacon ). it works fine with multishot, after making the litle mirror modification i described above.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2007, 06:06:05 AM by rehnniar » Logged

rainer viertlböck
architecture photographer
munich / germany

www.tangential.de
pprdigital
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 422


WWW
« Reply #21 on: January 14, 2007, 11:31:22 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote
Yair, many thanks for pointing that out. No, I hadn't been made aware of it. So, I guess I'll just have to bite the bullet on that score.

Nevertheless, for my other work, I would like the option of a screen when I'm not shooting multishot, assuming I go the multishot route, which is looking more likely now! ;-)

So, what are my choices for multishot systems with screens apart from Hasselblad/Imacon?



D.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=95651\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Dinarius:

There are no other digital backs besides the Hasselblad MS that capture in multi-shot and also have a screen. However, as Yair points out, even the Hasselblad MS backs with a screen wouldn't allow you to capture multi-shot without being tethered, as the software has to automate the release(s).

So, capturing multi-shot without a computer or laptop is out. And if that's a deal breaker, then your evaluation becomes more complex, because then you are really comparing all the models in single shot, and the results are very similar. Which means you have to shoot with the different systems, evaluate the software and workflow, camera integration, compare pricing, support, etc.

All that fun stuff!

Steve Hendrix
Logged

Steve Hendrix
Dinarius
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 709


« Reply #22 on: January 14, 2007, 12:43:08 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote
Dinarius:

There are no other digital backs besides the Hasselblad MS that capture in multi-shot and also have a screen.

Steve,

Many thanks.

Starting to look seriously like the Hassie in that case.

D.
Logged
Nick_T
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 88


« Reply #23 on: January 14, 2007, 04:06:49 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote
assuming I go the multishot route, which is looking more likely now! ;-)

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=95651\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


See if you can't get hold of some multi-shot/single shot comparisons, the difference is very apparent.
Lighting needs to be fairly consistent across the 4 frames of a multi-shot (say within 5-10%) or you will get artifacts.
 If you are shooting a scene that has movement in it (say trees through a window) be sure to shoot a single shot as well for comping later.

The H3d is a good platform for multi-shot as the mirror will lock up and stay up for the 4 (or 16) shots. The Back from an H3D will also go on a view camera. (Note if you want multi-shot on a view cam you will need an electronic shutter ala Rollei or Schneider).

Hope that helps
Nick-T
Logged

BernardLanguillier
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 7901



WWW
« Reply #24 on: January 14, 2007, 06:02:32 PM »
ReplyReply

One stupid question.

I was under the impression that the Hassy 28 mm could only be used with the standard one shot back of the H3D.

The current thread leads me to think that the Imacon multi-shot backs could also be used instead of the standard one shot back with the H3D.

Is this correct?

Regards,
Bernard
Logged

A few images online here!
pprdigital
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 422


WWW
« Reply #25 on: January 14, 2007, 07:21:59 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote
One stupid question.

I was under the impression that the Hassy 28 mm could only be used with the standard one shot back of the H3D.

The current thread leads me to think that the Imacon multi-shot backs could also be used instead of the standard one shot back with the H3D.

Is this correct?

Regards,
Bernard
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=95744\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Bernard:

I'm not clear on your question - can you re-phrase that? The first part is true - 28mm only on H3D.

Steve Hendrix
Logged

Steve Hendrix
Robin Casady
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 16


« Reply #26 on: January 14, 2007, 08:30:14 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote
Bernard:

I'm not clear on your question - can you re-phrase that? The first part is true - 28mm only on H3D.

Steve Hendrix
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=95758\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Tethered mult-shot can be done with the H3D back, right? I think Bernard was under the impression that a different back would be required for multi-shot.
Logged
BernardLanguillier
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 7901



WWW
« Reply #27 on: January 14, 2007, 08:46:28 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote
Tethered mult-shot can be done with the H3D back, right? I think Bernard was under the impression that a different back would be required for multi-shot.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=95761\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Robin and Steve,

Sorry if I wasn't clear. Yes, I was indeed under the impression that the H3D-39 back couldn't do multi-shot.

This un-substantiated belief (I confess I didn't check the Hassy site) came from the fact that there were different version of the Imacon/Hassy back in the H2D days, but - if I am correct - the H2D "built-in" back couldn't do multi-shot. Back then, the multi-shot back appeared to be significantly more expensive than the other ones.

If the H3D back can do multi-shot thethered, that clearly makes the H3D an even more attractive solution, with one more differentiator compared to the P45 IMHO.

Regards,
Bernard
Logged

A few images online here!
mattlap2
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 134


« Reply #28 on: January 14, 2007, 11:30:35 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote
Robin and Steve,

Sorry if I wasn't clear. Yes, I was indeed under the impression that the H3D-39 back couldn't do multi-shot.

This un-substantiated belief (I confess I didn't check the Hassy site) came from the fact that there were different version of the Imacon/Hassy back in the H2D days, but - if I am correct - the H2D "built-in" back couldn't do multi-shot. Back then, the multi-shot back appeared to be significantly more expensive than the other ones.

If the H3D back can do multi-shot thethered, that clearly makes the H3D an even more attractive solution, with one more differentiator compared to the P45 IMHO.

Regards,
Bernard
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

According to the Hasselblad website the technical spec's on the H3D say its a single shot back.

[a href=\"http://www.hasselblad.com/products/h-system/h3d.aspx]http://www.hasselblad.com/products/h-system/h3d.aspx[/url]
Logged
Morgan_Moore
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2215


WWW
« Reply #29 on: January 15, 2007, 05:54:02 AM »
ReplyReply

So Multishot would appear to be required by the OP as most suitable for art repro and on occasion non tethered - that would mean the only solution is the Blad which appears from hassy site to have adapters available for all the owners current kit

One thought

The OP uses a sinar F1

To create good files they could consider using double stitching images with a sinar, sliding back and a single shot digi-back to create nice files being chip size times 2, no multishot - still moiree but on a larger file than a straight P45

THis method would likely lower (but not nullify) out the need for very accurate lighting systems and  expensive electronic shutters (and shots ruined by floor wobble etc)

Using a sinar F and a sliding back IMO is easy if not using a wide angle lens

This solution may mean less re-kitting as non digital lenses are good in this scenario and their 'softness' might  actually help with moiree

In terms of tethering - musems and galleries would seem to be the ideal envrionment

Dry - flat floors - spacious

I dont think the OP should worry about tethered if they are used to the faf of shooting 54

Surely it revolves around the price difference betweent a single shot back to a multi shot one

I still think the OP shoud consider a S/h multishot Eyelike or sinarback 22mp - great files (p45 beating) for a low price - the downsides - multishot and tethered


Personally  I would get a Sinar Emotion 75, on a mamiya mount and a linhof sliding back adapter for the sinar and create the money shots using two stitched exposures with the sinar and and the mamiya in hurried situations

no new lenses - no electronic shutter - no new lighting - no new mF system - future proof as camera system can be changed  

SMM
Logged

Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
www.sammorganmoore.com -photography
pprdigital
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 422


WWW
« Reply #30 on: January 15, 2007, 09:02:07 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote
Robin and Steve,

Sorry if I wasn't clear. Yes, I was indeed under the impression that the H3D-39 back couldn't do multi-shot.

This un-substantiated belief (I confess I didn't check the Hassy site) came from the fact that there were different version of the Imacon/Hassy back in the H2D days, but - if I am correct - the H2D "built-in" back couldn't do multi-shot. Back then, the multi-shot back appeared to be significantly more expensive than the other ones.

If the H3D back can do multi-shot thethered, that clearly makes the H3D an even more attractive solution, with one more differentiator compared to the P45 IMHO.

Regards,
Bernard
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=95764\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Bernard:

None of the Hasselblad DSLR's have ever done multi-shot, meaning the H1D, H2D, or H3D. The solution for multi-shot with Hasselblad is currently the CF-22MS and CF-39MS digital backs, which are platform independent digital backs that will go on just about any camera you want.

Steve Hendrix
Logged

Steve Hendrix
Dinarius
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 709


« Reply #31 on: January 15, 2007, 10:56:17 AM »
ReplyReply

Prompted by Sam's suggestions above, I've been taking a long look at the Sinar site.

http://www.sinar.ch/site/index__gast-e-132...s-rand-968.html

Click on 'Digital Backs' in the menu on the left.

Question......

They tout the eVolution 75H as the successor to the Sinarback 54 H. However, unless I'm reading the technical details incorrectly, the 75H has the 1 shot and 4 shot multishot modes, but it does not have the 16 shot mode of the 54 H. If I am correct, why is this?

While accepting that neither back has a screen, I note from the French distributors website - http://www.semelec.fr/photo/site.php?rubr=30 - that the 54H is on offer for €17500. Considering that I already have the cameras, at less than half what a switch to Hasselblad would cost me, that's seems very good indeed. (It would cost far more if I was to buy Hasselblad lenses to match my Mamiya lenses, lens for lens.) Yes, I know it's not 39Mp and it doesn't have a screen, but...............! ;-)

My two concerns are that my RB might not permit multishot mode and there is no mention of an adaptor plate for my Sinar P on the website, only the P2 and P3. I have emailed the UK distributors for clarification.

All in all, very interesting.

D.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2007, 10:57:30 AM by Dinarius » Logged
pprdigital
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 422


WWW
« Reply #32 on: January 15, 2007, 12:12:20 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote
Prompted by Sam's suggestions above, I've been taking a long look at the Sinar site.

http://www.sinar.ch/site/index__gast-e-132...s-rand-968.html

Click on 'Digital Backs' in the menu on the left.

Question......

They tout the eVolution 75H as the successor to the Sinarback 54 H. However, unless I'm reading the technical details incorrectly, the 75H has the 1 shot and 4 shot multishot modes, but it does not have the 16 shot mode of the 54 H. If I am correct, why is this?

While accepting that neither back has a screen, I note from the French distributors website - http://www.semelec.fr/photo/site.php?rubr=30 - that the 54H is on offer for €17500. Considering that I already have the cameras, at less than half what a switch to Hasselblad would cost me, that's seems very good indeed. (It would cost far more if I was to buy Hasselblad lenses to match my Mamiya lenses, lens for lens.) Yes, I know it's not 39Mp and it doesn't have a screen, but...............! ;-)

My two concerns are that my RB might not permit multishot mode and there is no mention of an adaptor plate for my Sinar P on the website, only the P2 and P3. I have emailed the UK distributors for clarification.

All in all, very interesting.

D.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=95837\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Dinarius:

The 75H will only do 1 shot/4 shot. Same with the Hasselblad CF-39MS (the CF-22MS will do 16 shot). Several factors for this -

Price: More cost to enable 16 shot mode. And with 200MB 16 bit files, they probably decided the demand wouldn't justify the extra expense for most end users.

Quality: 16 shot mode captures half or quarter pixels (not sure which, I've never gotten a confirmed answer), which are smaller than the one whole pixel that the 1 shot/4 shots capture. With the smaller pitch of the new sensors (7.2 with the Dalsa 33MP), getting optimal quality out of the 16 shot would likely be a challenge.

That extra screen and CF card slot are extras you're paying for on the Hasselblad that you may not need. As far as quality goes - both Sinar and Hasselblad multi-shots are phenominal, so if you don't need the extras, save the cash.

You can adapt Sinarbacks to a Sinar P - either with a Sinar sliding back or a KaptureGroup sliding back. Both have ground glass. The KaptureGroup sliding back is half the price, although doesn't quite have the build quality of the Sinar. You can also mount the back to your P with a flat plate and use Live Video, but you'll need a hardware piece (about $2,400) to really get usable video.

No winder on an RB, so that rules out multi-shot. On that note, on your Sinar P, you would need lenses with electronic shutters (Schneider, Rollei, or Sinar). That will add some cost. You might consider picking up a Mamiya 645AFD, for multi-shot use, or something similar, if costs are a factor.

Steve Hendrix
Logged

Steve Hendrix
Morgan_Moore
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2215


WWW
« Reply #33 on: January 15, 2007, 12:45:44 PM »
ReplyReply

" the 75H has the 1 shot and 4 shot multishot modes, but it does not have the 16 shot mode of the 54 H."

I think 16 shot is a hangover from native 6MP chips where a file of 16*6*3 228MB was required
Does any one need a 16*33*3 file 1528MP is not really needed and hard to compute
16 shot is very fiddly
(this is conjecture an I think the umbers are wrong but you get the idea)


"Considering that I already have the cameras,"

Be aware that

-you can use almost any back on a sinar camera (exept h2d,h3d??)- not just sinar backs

-anything that will go on a P2 will go ony any F or P camera

I have little knowledge if the RB system - it is not much listed for compatabliiity with backs while the RZ is - are the lenses the same - could you swap?

==========

You are still not seeming to register that I would consider using a sliding back adapter and a single shot back with the sinar

You can use this to make two exposures that are then stitched together (phase/C1 automates this)

You will still have moire issues (that are only relvant for clothand gratings) but a massive file and you dont need to get electronic shutters for your sinar

With this single shot back you would need to probably get a new MF system but a contax or Mamiya 645afd is pretty chaep (or even 645 pro TL with sinar)

You can use a hassy back on the v system too..

http://www.hasselblad.com/media/890fe86e-d...cbb12-CF_UK.pdf

WHich is much cheaper than an H system

Ultimately the Hassy CF-MS seems generally ahead of the game becuase it is both multishot and can be untethered for single shot

THe reason I like Sinar backs is that you can change system with thier range of adapters in a way that is not possible with phase or leaf which have to go back the factory

It is all down to money and convienece in the end you must find your own position on this scale

SMM
« Last Edit: January 15, 2007, 12:46:18 PM by Morgan_Moore » Logged

Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
www.sammorganmoore.com -photography
yaya
Guest
« Reply #34 on: January 15, 2007, 01:50:36 PM »
ReplyReply

OK I can't let it go without mentioning Leaf as a (very) viable option:-)

Starting with the RB: Leaf makes a (relatively) cheap and chearful RB interface that allows you to rotate the back on the camera. The RB, being mechanical allows you to use Live Video as well and the Leaf Live Video is the best of them all without having to use an external LCD shutter.

If you buy the back in a V-mount for the RB and later on, once the AFi is available, decide to change camera system, you will be entitled for a free exchange with a brand new back for the AFi. You also get a discount on the RB adapter.

If you buy it in AFD mount you can then use it also on a cheap AFD if you decide to go that route.

Over to the view camera, again Leaf makes a cheap and chearful Graflok plate that goes directly onto your Sinar and lets you use Live Video.
If the ground glass and stitching is your choice, like Sam has suggested, pick a KG/ Cambo/ Linhof/ Plaubel/ Mergin-X sliding back and you're off.

In a gallery environment (indoors) for shooting untethered, the Aptus's LCD is by far the best one for evaluating composition and the only one that gives a true 100% preview with/ without sharpening. It also allows an accurate WB and a spot meter as well.

More food for thought, if you need any further help let me know which part of the world your are located and we can give you some references.

Good luck again

Yair

[span style=\'font-size:7pt;line-height:100%\']Yair Shahar | Regional Manager | Leaf EMEA |
mob:  +44 77 8992 8199 | yair.shahar@kodak.com |  www.leaf-photography.com
Leaf, part of Kodak's Graphic Communications Group
[/span]
Logged
mscottwood
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 2


« Reply #35 on: January 15, 2007, 01:50:59 PM »
ReplyReply

Hi. I may be one of the few who has owned simultaneously an H2/P45 and an H3/Imacon39. Frankly, imagewise, both backs are excellent although in several direct comparisons using the 120mm Macro and the 300mm telephoto lenses I gave the edge to the Imacon. On some images and under certain conditions, the P45 evidences an artifact (only faintly visible on a monitor at 100% and more obvious at higher magnifications) which appears to be a micro tiling of pixels. At 400% the tiles consist of square matrices of 6 by 6 pixels. However, these artifacts have never shown up on prints up to 36 inches but the mere presence of them on the monitor is annoying. Several other monitors in two different studio locations have displayed the same artifacts so it's not something unique to my setup. I would expect that this is a software issue which will be corrected in the future release of CaptureOne 4.0. I might also add that another owner of an H2/P45 back has never noticed this artifact so it might be unique to my copy.

I have since sold my H2/P45 and have taken hundreds of images with the H3/39 with no problems. Flexcolor software continues to improve and, in my opinion, is equal to CaptureOne in capabilities. However my chief reason for going with the H3 is their fantastic new 28mm lens (boasting the best MTF's in medium format photography) which will only work with the H3. This will apparently also be the case with any new Hasselblad lenses unless they relent and make them available to other back manufacturers.
Logged
BernardLanguillier
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 7901



WWW
« Reply #36 on: January 15, 2007, 07:17:13 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote
Bernard:

None of the Hasselblad DSLR's have ever done multi-shot, meaning the H1D, H2D, or H3D. The solution for multi-shot with Hasselblad is currently the CF-22MS and CF-39MS digital backs, which are platform independent digital backs that will go on just about any camera you want.

Steve Hendrix
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=95823\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Steve,

Thank you for your answer. That was indeed my understanding.

I assume that it means that there is no possibility to use the new Hassy 28 mm lens together with the CF-39MS, correct?

Regards,
Bernard
Logged

A few images online here!
pprdigital
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 422


WWW
« Reply #37 on: January 15, 2007, 08:17:46 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote
Steve,

Thank you for your answer. That was indeed my understanding.

I assume that it means that there is no possibility to use the new Hassy 28 mm lens together with the CF-39MS, correct?

Regards,
Bernard
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=95892\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Bernard:

Correct. The limitation of the 28mm affects some of Hasselblad's own products as well as 3rd party back users. Unfortunately, the 28mm will only work on H3D.

Steve
Logged

Steve Hendrix
rainer_v
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1130


WWW
« Reply #38 on: January 16, 2007, 07:29:28 AM »
ReplyReply

no quality comparision between single shot and 4 or 16shot for textil or repro.
the results ( colors / edges ) are so much cleaner in 4/16 shot mode......

the 54h for sure is a interesting alternative regarding the price, further the 16shot deliver you by far better quality than any stitched bayer image, but also the 4shot 22mp imager looks better for this kind of stuff than a nominal bigger bayer file.

one difference between the new evolution ( dalsa sensor ) between the 54h ( kodak sensor ) could be the exposure length. the kodak sensor starts to bring in noise at exposures longer than 2-4 seconds. 10-15 seconds still are possible, but you have to make very carefull white shadings to injvert noise with it.

probably the evolution will have similar noise behavor than the emotion backs, which means 30 seconds @iso50 should not be any problem.
Logged

rainer viertlböck
architecture photographer
munich / germany

www.tangential.de
thsinar
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2066


WWW
« Reply #39 on: January 16, 2007, 08:58:21 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote
Dinarius:

The 75H will only do 1 shot/4 shot. Same with the Hasselblad CF-39MS (the CF-22MS will do 16 shot). Several factors for this -

Price: More cost to enable 16 shot mode. And with 200MB 16 bit files, they probably decided the demand wouldn't justify the extra expense for most end users.

Quality: 16 shot mode captures half or quarter pixels (not sure which, I've never gotten a confirmed answer), which are smaller than the one whole pixel that the 1 shot/4 shots capture. With the smaller pitch of the new sensors (7.2 with the Dalsa 33MP), getting optimal quality out of the 16 shot would likely be a challenge.

That extra screen and CF card slot are extras you're paying for on the Hasselblad that you may not need. As far as quality goes - both Sinar and Hasselblad multi-shots are phenominal, so if you don't need the extras, save the cash.

You can adapt Sinarbacks to a Sinar P - either with a Sinar sliding back or a KaptureGroup sliding back. Both have ground glass. The KaptureGroup sliding back is half the price, although doesn't quite have the build quality of the Sinar. You can also mount the back to your P with a flat plate and use Live Video, but you'll need a hardware piece (about $2,400) to really get usable video.

No winder on an RB, so that rules out multi-shot. On that note, on your Sinar P, you would need lenses with electronic shutters (Schneider, Rollei, or Sinar). That will add some cost. You might consider picking up a Mamiya 645AFD, for multi-shot use, or something similar, if costs are a factor.

Steve Hendrix
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=95844\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Some little precisions Steve, with your permission:

- it is not yet completely out of discussion if the eVolution 75 H will have the 16-shot capabilty or not: this depends on the demand from ur customers. One has to realize that with 16-shot the file size is 4 times bigger!
- the optimal quality is effectively a challenge (vibrations, lenses sed, ...), but there would still be a noticeable difference if all is done the right way and wit the right lenses.
- it does actually not change a lot in price, to acivate the 16-shot (the eVolution has it built-in, with the piezo plate used for the 4-shot). It is just a question of "piezo calibration".
- in 16-shot captures the CCD is moved by 1/2 pixel.
- there is a solution on the p3 where one can use manual Copal lenses: no need of lenses with electronic shutter.

Hope this helps.

Thierry
Sinar AG Switzerland
Logged

Thierry Hagenauer
thasia_cn@yahoo.com
Pages: « 1 [2] 3 4 »   Top of Page
Print
Jump to:  

Ad
Ad
Ad