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Author Topic: PhaseOne or Hasselblad/Imacon?  (Read 17586 times)
thsinar
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« Reply #40 on: January 16, 2007, 09:04:44 AM »
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no quality comparision between single shot and 4 or 16shot for textil or repro.
the results ( colors / edges ) are so much cleaner in 4/16 shot mode......

the 54h for sure is a interesting alternative regarding the price, further the 16shot deliver you by far better quality than any stitched bayer image, but also the 4shot 22mp imager looks better for this kind of stuff than a nominal bigger bayer file.

one difference between the new evolution ( dalsa sensor ) between the 54h ( kodak sensor ) could be the exposure length. the kodak sensor starts to bring in noise at exposures longer than 2-4 seconds. 10-15 seconds still are possible, but you have to make very carefull white shadings to injvert noise with it.

probably the evolution will have similar noise behavor than the emotion backs, which means 30 seconds @iso50 should not be any problem.
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i confirm Rainer's comments on multishot quality.

As for long exposure capability without noise: the 54 H and captureshop have a bult-in "Get Back Reference": you have to actvate it when shooting longer than 2 seconds. It will empty the pixels from residual noise and give you clear and clean channels up to 32 seconds (at the nominal 50 ISO). However, when using Live Video one has to know that the CCD is getting heated up by the live function: it is therefore also suggested to get a manual "Black Reference" before the final shot and/or to close the Live Video and wait for some time for the CCD to cool down with the built-in "Active Cooling" system. The eVolution should effectively allow even more.

Thierry
Sinar AG Switzerland
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #41 on: January 16, 2007, 09:27:31 AM »
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Some little precisions Steve, with your permission:

- it is not yet completely out of discussion if the eVolution 75 H will have the 16-shot capabilty or not: this depends on the demand from ur customers. One has to realize that with 16-shot the file size is 4 times bigger!
- the optimal quality is effectively a challenge (vibrations, lenses sed, ...), but there would still be a noticeable difference if all is done the right way and wit the right lenses.
- it does actually not change a lot in price, to acivate the 16-shot (the eVolution has it built-in, with the piezo plate used for the 4-shot). It is just a question of "piezo calibration".
- in 16-shot captures the CCD is moved by 1/2 pixel.
- there is a solution on the p3 where one can use manual Copal lenses: no need of lenses with electronic shutter.

Hope this helps.

Thierry
Sinar AG Switzerland
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Thierry:

Thanks for the clarification.

Well, that's news on the potential 16 shot addition to the eVolution. If it doesn't add significantly to the price - we're all for it.

Most of the reliable sources had indicated 1/2 pixel, I think some confusion creeps in because of the 4X file size, leading one to think in terms of 1/4 pixels. Thanks for clearing that up.

By use of the electronic shutter, I meant for multi-shot mode, although you can capture multi-shot without electronic shutters (by dousing the lights), it can be a pain.

Thanks,
Steve Hendrix
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Steve Hendrix
thsinar
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« Reply #42 on: January 16, 2007, 09:33:23 AM »
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Thierry:

By use of the electronic shutter, I meant for multi-shot mode, although you can capture multi-shot without electronic shutters (by dousing the lights), it can be a pain.

Thanks,
Steve Hendrix
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Steve,

yes, absolutely right, it can be a pain.

Thierry
Sinar AG Switzerland
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Thierry Hagenauer
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Dinarius
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« Reply #43 on: January 16, 2007, 12:27:30 PM »
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Wow! A lot of excellent replies....to which here's my tuppence worth.

Steve, the thought of stitching 30-50 paintings after a long day's shooting is simply a non-starter! I spend too much time on the computer as it is. ;-)

Got a quote today from my local Hassie dealer. 39Mp MS back with 6x4.5 body, prism finder and 80mm lens is €35500. Frankly, Sam's advice to consider Sinar is looking more and more attractive.

For copy work, what focal length/make electronic lens would you guys recommend for my Sinar? Just out of curiousity, what is the state-of-the-art piece of glass that fits this bill?

I could pick up an RZ easily enough. I think that the RB lenses fit. If not, it's not the end of the world to buy one or two. Or the Mamiya 645, as Steve suggested.

Yair, thanks for your input. Can you post a couple of links to backs that you think would suit, bearing in mind that stitching is not an option? Thanks.

On balance, the file size from the 54 H is fine for what I do, and if the advent of the 75 H makes the 54 more affordable, then all the better. As Morgan Moore said above, the Hassie offers the ultimate in convenience. It has all the bells and whistles, but at a price. If I had been a Hassie user for the last twenty five years, there would be no decision to be made. But, I haven't been.... I use Canon also, and when the mythical 22Mp is released, I will probably buy one. With a reasonably (I use the word advisedly!) priced medium/large format back already purchased by then, I should be well set up.

One last thing on the mechanics of the multi-shot......Steve, are you saying that if I'm shooting in a blacked out studio and I turn off the modelling lights, I can shoot multi-shot with a manual shutter?

Thanks to all.

D.

ps........

Thierry, why isn't the 54 HC mentioned on your website? I mean this link......

http://www.sinar.ch/site/index__gast-e-132...s-rand-968.html

(Click 'Digital Backs' on the left menu)

pps........

Just Googled this thread.........in case others hadn't seen it.

http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/lofive...php/t13330.html

I presume a bog standard PC laptop with Firewire will do the video job?

D.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2007, 12:52:25 PM by Dinarius » Logged
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« Reply #44 on: January 16, 2007, 01:15:26 PM »
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"I presume a bog standard PC laptop with Firewire will do the video job?"

Be warned some of the backs dont even run on PC !!!!!!!!!!

Sinar for one I think !
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« Reply #45 on: January 16, 2007, 01:22:40 PM »
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did you saw the thread i made some days ago? comparing the 54h in 16shot mode with the e75 with differnt options to avoid moiree?
scroll down to see the images ( 100% crops ).

http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=13976
« Last Edit: January 16, 2007, 01:23:09 PM by rehnniar » Logged

rainer viertlböck
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« Reply #46 on: January 16, 2007, 03:21:47 PM »
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Wow! A lot of excellent replies....to which here's my tuppence worth.

Steve, the thought of stitching 30-50 paintings after a long day's shooting is simply a non-starter! I spend too much time on the computer as it is. ;-)

Got a quote today from my local Hassie dealer. 39Mp MS back with 6x4.5 body, prism finder and 80mm lens is €35500. Frankly, Sam's advice to consider Sinar is looking more and more attractive.

For copy work, what focal length/make electronic lens would you guys recommend for my Sinar? Just out of curiousity, what is the state-of-the-art piece of glass that fits this bill?

I could pick up an RZ easily enough. I think that the RB lenses fit. If not, it's not the end of the world to buy one or two. Or the Mamiya 645, as Steve suggested.

Yair, thanks for your input. Can you post a couple of links to backs that you think would suit, bearing in mind that stitching is not an option? Thanks.

On balance, the file size from the 54 H is fine for what I do, and if the advent of the 75 H makes the 54 more affordable, then all the better. As Morgan Moore said above, the Hassie offers the ultimate in convenience. It has all the bells and whistles, but at a price. If I had been a Hassie user for the last twenty five years, there would be no decision to be made. But, I haven't been.... I use Canon also, and when the mythical 22Mp is released, I will probably buy one. With a reasonably (I use the word advisedly!) priced medium/large format back already purchased by then, I should be well set up.

One last thing on the mechanics of the multi-shot......Steve, are you saying that if I'm shooting in a blacked out studio and I turn off the modelling lights, I can shoot multi-shot with a manual shutter?

Thanks to all.

D.

D.
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Dinarius:

Actually, Morgan was proposing the stitching - not I.

Ironic that the Sinar is the economical choice, eh?

Actually, to be fair, you're comparing 54H to CF-22MS, which is a generation ahead. You could also look at the iXpress 528C, which is closer in price to a 54H. The iXpress 528C uses the same chip as the 54H, has interchangable plates like the 54H, and adds some semi-portability (it has a screen and an external hard drive to shoot to).

And I'm not recommending the Hasselblad over the Sinar, they both do multi-shot, so if that's the game, they're the only ones in town. The quality from both in multi-shot mode is excellent for this type of work - your choice might ultimately come down to software preference.

Steve Hendrix
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Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #47 on: January 16, 2007, 04:09:15 PM »
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Dinarius,

The new P45+ might possibly fit your workflow, but I might suggest getting it with a Hassey V mount.  That way you could fit it to a RZ with an adapter plate or even put it on a 4x5 with a
FlexAdapter.

Here is a link from Phase One's web site to show you some of the new P+ features:

http://www.phaseone.com/upload/06_pplus.pdf

Chris Lawery
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yaya
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« Reply #48 on: January 16, 2007, 04:40:41 PM »
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I could pick up an RZ easily enough. I think that the RB lenses fit. If not, it's not the end of the world to buy one or two. Or the Mamiya 645, as Steve suggested.

The RB lenses fit the RZ and there's even a setting on the shutter speed knob that says "RB" so you can set the speed from the lens.

Quote
Yair, thanks for your input. Can you post a couple of links to backs that you think would suit, bearing in mind that stitching is not an option? Thanks.

http://www.leaf-photography.com/pages/products/Aptus75.aspx
For the RB you can buy it in either AFD or V mounts with a rotating adapter
For the RZ in either AFD, H1 or V mounts, again with a rotating adapter
and for the Sinar any mount will do, there is currently a bundle with a Graflok plate and Live Video, contact the Leaf dealer in your area for prices.

I would still suggest TESTING as many backs as possible (within your budget of course) before buying.

Yair
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« Reply #49 on: January 16, 2007, 05:22:36 PM »
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Quote from: Dinarius,Jan 17 2007, 01:27 AM

One last thing on the mechanics of the multi-shot......Steve, are you saying that if I'm shooting in a blacked out studio and I turn off the modelling lights, I can shoot multi-shot with a manual shutter?

Thanks to all.

D.

ps........

Thierry, why isn't the 54 HC mentioned on your website? I mean this link......

hi Dinarius,

- Multisot in dark studio: yes, in this case you can use the multishot mode with normal Copal lenses or then with a Copal "Behind-the-lens shutter" and DB lenses. Set the shutter to "B", open it, and release in Slave mode from Captureshop.

- 54 HC: there is no such a Sinarback. You are probably speaking about the 54 MC, the latest version of the 54 M. This is a single-shot 22 MPx DB. The normal M version has an active electronical built-in cooling system. The MC in addition has a built-in fan for long exposure times and maximum noise reduction.

Thanks, Thierry
Sinar AG Switzerland
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #50 on: January 16, 2007, 08:52:51 PM »
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I am very familiar with the 54H. It is a nice back. However, you have to shoot tethered to a Mac. Opt for the firewire instead of optical connection if you buy it used.

For my money, the best deal on the market is a used 22 MP Imacon multi-shot back. Use it on a Mamiya 645 AFD. The 120MM and 80MM macro lenses are a steal on Ebay, and they are extremely sharp. The Mamiya 645 AFD is also a steal on Ebay.

I have only used 16-shot once. If you use a PC, you'll want to have a speedy processor and 4 GB of RAM. It takes a long time to shoot 16 exposures. 16-shot exerts a lot of use on your camera and strobes. I've concluded that the resolution advantage of 16-shot is not worth the hassle.

As I mentioned earlier, I'm using an Imacon 384C. It's a square 16 MP chip. I use the camera for making giclees for several artists in Central Florida. I have had wonderful success printing onto canvas up to 37" wide. As far as printing onto paper, I typically stay under 36." If I need to print larger than 36" or if there is extraordinary detail in the original, I take two 4-Shot exposures of the artwork and stitch together in Photoshop. I move the artwork, not the camera back.

The Imacon 384C with a Mamiya 645 adaptor, Mamiya 645 AFD, 80 Macro and 120 Apo Macro cost about $13K.

The Imacon/Mamiya works untethered in single shot mode.
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Dinarius
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« Reply #51 on: August 01, 2007, 04:59:58 AM »
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It has been some months since this thread was active!

I still haven't bought a back, but I am about to.

I have ruled out the Sinar MS because of the lack of a screen and a flash card slot. Pity. So, it's down to Hasselblad or Phase.

I spent the last two days testing the Hasselblad 39Mp. First impressions........

(please bear in mind that I can only compare it to the [wonderful!] interface on a Canon 5D)


1. The screen is awful. It's soft and the colour is terrible. On the Canon, I always use Auto White Balance and, quite literally, what you see is what you get. On the Hassie I couldn't find an AWB setting, so I chose flash. The colour looks like daylight film shot under tungsten.

2. When you enlarge the image on the screen to check something, it is nowhere as sharp as the Canon. Even worse, the arrow keys move the image around in leaps, not in tiny increments like on the Canon. So, it's very difficult to obtain a clear view of a precise detail.

3. On the issue of the same arrow keys button. It felt cheap and unsure and I wonder if it would give trouble?

4. Moving around the interface is not very intuitive. A simple action like deleting an image takes too many steps, in my view.

Processing............this is where the fun really begins!

5. Both ACR and Capture One are the products of, quite literally, millions of feedback opinions.

FlexColor is the product of a handful (relatively speaking) of user opinions and it sure shows.

Like me, many of you will have started out on ACR and, at some point, downloaded C1LE. Within minutes you will have been finding your way around it. Try doing that with FlexColor!

a. There is no multi-sample tool, as in ACR, which is essential for my work.

b. You can export to DNG via FlexColor and then use ACR. But, you CANNOT convert the files to DNG using Adobe DNG. It's strictly one way traffic using Hasselblad's closed shop approach.

c. When I did export to DNG, half of the files appeared with the same thumbnail image when opened in ACR4 via Bridge! When I clicked on a file in Bridge, the correct image appeared in the preview window on the right, but the folder of files in the middle remained with over half of them showing a repeat of one image. Weird!

d. The interface is dire, pure and simple.

Why do Hasselblad have to be so bloody minded and myopic? Why not leave the processing to others who just do it better?

I accept that there are many photographers better than me who use FlexColor all the time and will swear by it. But, as someone who uses a Gretag CC in every shot, it just wouldn't work for me.

How much do Hasselblad really gain by all but forcing users to process their images via a second rate (to my way of looking, I hasten to add) piece of software? If they concentrated on the cameras and backs and left the rest to others, they might have more users. This arrogance is now being repeated with the closed shop approach of the H3D.

For me the four shot facility is a major attraction. Without it, the Hasselblad would not be worth consideration. I just wish they were more open minded about access to their files.

Would this camera/back/software combination pass muster if it were a DSLR? Not a hope, in my opinion.

I will shortly be testing a Phase P45.

D.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2007, 05:23:55 AM by Dinarius » Logged
Dustbak
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« Reply #52 on: August 01, 2007, 07:35:06 AM »
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I just received my CF39 and my first impressions are, it is built differently than my Leaf. The Leaf feels sturdier. The firewire cable in the CF is in a really weird location, dangerous in my opinion. If I step on it with my Leaf it gets disconnected. Annoying but that only, I do not want to think how it is when it happens to the CF.

Flexcolor is just another program which is workable but will be obsolete within the near future, it is just that Hasselblad is not aware of it yet.

The Ixpress adapter I find a blessing. The MS option is nice. The screen is bad but so is it for all others. IMO you should only use the screen for the histogram.

My biggest fear was the bigger file size but sofar I find it doable but I have yet to do a 500image shoot that needs to be on FTP a couple of hours later  

Did you also check on the Leaf? I would not rule them out beforehand.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2007, 08:13:54 AM by Dustbak » Logged
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« Reply #53 on: August 01, 2007, 07:36:30 AM »
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It has been some months since this thread was active!

I still haven't bought a back, but I am about to.

I have ruled out the Sinar MS because of the lack of a screen and a flash card slot. Pity. So, it's down to Hasselblad or Phase.

I spent the last two days testing the Hasselblad 39Mp. First impressions........

(please bear in mind that I can only compare it to the [wonderful!] interface on a Canon 5D)
1. The screen is awful. It's soft and the colour is terrible. On the Canon, I always use Auto White Balance and, quite literally, what you see is what you get. On the Hassie I couldn't find an AWB setting, so I chose flash. The colour looks like daylight film shot under tungsten.

2. When you enlarge the image on the screen to check something, it is nowhere as sharp as the Canon. Even worse, the arrow keys move the image around in leaps, not in tiny increments like on the Canon. So, it's very difficult to obtain a clear view of a precise detail.

3. On the issue of the same arrow keys button. It felt cheap and unsure and I wonder if it would give trouble?

4. Moving around the interface is not very intuitive. A simple action like deleting an image takes too many steps, in my view.

Processing............this is where the fun really begins!

5. Both ACR and Capture One are the products of, quite literally, millions of feedback opinions.

FlexColor is the product of a handful (relatively speaking) of user opinions and it sure shows.

Like me, many of you will have started out on ACR and, at some point, downloaded C1LE. Within minutes you will have been finding your way around it. Try doing that with FlexColor!

a. There is no multi-sample tool, as in ACR, which is essential for my work.

b. You can export to DNG via FlexColor and then use ACR. But, you CANNOT convert the files to DNG using Adobe DNG. It's strictly one way traffic using Hasselblad's closed shop approach.

c. When I did export to DNG, half of the files appeared with the same thumbnail image when opened in ACR4 via Bridge! When I clicked on a file in Bridge, the correct image appeared in the preview window on the right, but the folder of files in the middle remained with over half of them showing a repeat of one image. Weird!

d. The interface is dire, pure and simple.

Why do Hasselblad have to be so bloody minded and myopic? Why not leave the processing to others who just do it better?

I accept that there are many photographers better than me who use FlexColor all the time and will swear by it. But, as someone who uses a Gretag CC in every shot, it just wouldn't work for me.

How much do Hasselblad really gain by all but forcing users to process their images via a second rate (to my way of looking, I hasten to add) piece of software? If they concentrated on the cameras and backs and left the rest to others, they might have more users. This arrogance is now being repeated with the closed shop approach of the H3D.

For me the four shot facility is a major attraction. Without it, the Hasselblad would not be worth consideration. I just wish they were more open minded about access to their files.

Would this camera/back/software combination pass muster if it were a DSLR? Not a hope, in my opinion.

I will shortly be testing a Phase P45.

D.
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Your feelings about Flexcolor? I had exactly the same reaction to Capture One. Totally non-intuitive to me. I detested it. My view is that all of the software programs from the MFDB makers are dinosaurs compared to Lightroom and ACR. Same with the LCDs. They all suck compared to the LCD on the Canon 1DIII. I cannot imagine using the LCDs on any of the MFDBs to do anything other than checking the histogram and changing settings. And if you use the Hasselblad in the studio in mutlti-shot mode, why would you not shoot tethered to a computer and use the computer for checking focus and color?
Why would anyone need a choice of DNG converters? The one in Flexcolor works simply, quickly and effectively. However, the major drawback to converting to DNGs is that you lose the benefit of the digital lens corrections in Flexcolor.
Deleting files on the Hasselblad back is easy(if you know what you are doing).  You just hold down the bottom arrow key for 3 or 4 seconds.
I do not understand why the use of a Gretag CC in every shot makes things more difficult with the Hasselblad. I would think it's a good thing that makes it way easier to set the WB precisely.
BTW, how were the multi-shot files compared to the 5D?
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« Reply #54 on: August 01, 2007, 07:38:04 AM »
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Dinarius,

The Sinar MS (I understand multishot) does not have a display, but on the other hand PO does not have a multishot. The reason is obvious, since mostly multishot is used in studio locations, one shoots then tethered.

If you want to have a display, I would give it a try with the eMotion 54 or 75 LV.

Best regards,
Thierry



Quote
It has been some months since this thread was active!

I still haven't bought a back, but I am about to.

I have ruled out the Sinar MS because of the lack of a screen and a flash card slot. Pity. So, it's down to Hasselblad or Phase.

I spent the last two days testing the Hasselblad 39Mp. First impressions........

(please bear in mind that I can only compare it to the [wonderful!] interface on a Canon 5D)
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« Reply #55 on: August 01, 2007, 08:07:16 AM »
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They all suck compared to the LCD on the Canon 1DIII. I cannot imagine using the LCDs on any of the MFDBs to do anything other than checking the histogram and changing settings.

I have a P30+ back, with the NEW Screen...SUCKS.  Hcubell nailed it.  You will have to TRUST your light meter.  Almost unusable outside.....I love my 5D screen, oh well.......

Best of luck

Ken
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Dinarius
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« Reply #56 on: August 03, 2007, 02:22:08 AM »
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Been busy, hence the delay in coming back to this topic........

Another gripe with the H3D.......

e. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you cannot view separate RGB channels on the screen? Like most, I expose to the right, but this resulted in at least one channel being blown in most shots. Mickey Mouse cameras have this feature. Does the Hasselblad?

On balance, it seems to me that you're paying (Kodak) for the sensor. Just about everything else is an afterthought and given almost grudgingly. The same all round (lack of) quality sold as a DSLR wouldn't sell a single camera. That's the truth of it, IMHO.

In response to your questions........

Thierry, I have only a Hasselblad and a Phase dealer in my area. I do not wish to have to deal with someone by phone or, even worse, have to mail a camera somewhere to be repaired.

Dustbak, why do you think that Flexcolor will become obsolete? I don't mind if they want to keep it.  The best solution would be to be able to impose the lens corrections BEFORE converting to DNG. That would be the best of both worlds. I could then avoid Flexcolor for processing.

hcubell, totally agree that ACR4 is the dog's cojones. Worth upgrading to CS3 for on its own. (LR does not have a 9 point sampler, I think.) As to the screen, it should be at least as good as a €200 6Mp camera. It isn't. I borrowed a H3D, so no MS.

Am borrowing a P45 next week.

D.
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yaya
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« Reply #57 on: August 03, 2007, 03:34:39 AM »
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e. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you cannot view separate RGB channels on the screen? Like most, I expose to the right, but this resulted in at least one channel being blown in most shots.

The histogram on the Leaf Aptus back can show you the 3 separate channels.

Which part of the world are you in, if I may ask?
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« Reply #58 on: August 03, 2007, 04:03:39 AM »
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Hi
My feeling is that LR will become an industry standard in about a year. I still think RD is a better developer. I find it interesting that the ZD back in the US will have LR included & they will in a few months be tethered for the ZD back. If that is the case they will be tethered for other backs & DSLRs in the future. I know this is off track but this is my feeling on LR as I think it will become the industry standard.
Thanks Denis
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Dinarius
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« Reply #59 on: August 03, 2007, 05:16:49 AM »
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yaya,

No leaf dealer near me either. Only the two I mentioned above.

Just confirmed the P45 for a day next Wednesday. Looking forward to that.

D.
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