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Author Topic: 1st print problems with z3100  (Read 44194 times)
Christopher
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« Reply #60 on: January 27, 2007, 11:52:12 AM »
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Ok thanks for the information. As ones said I don't have a 24 roll, but the 13in roll of HM Photo Rag is working great. I will get a larger roll this week and then I will certainly test it.
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mcbroomf
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« Reply #61 on: January 30, 2007, 01:51:09 PM »
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Here are a couple of photos I took yesterday showing the paper buckle as it starts to emerge from the rollers.  Same conditions as before, 24" HM FAP.

[attachment=1703:attachment][attachment=1704:attachment]
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Mike Broomfield
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« Reply #62 on: January 31, 2007, 03:59:25 PM »
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any word from the big wigs at HP??
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mcbroomf
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« Reply #63 on: January 31, 2007, 04:17:57 PM »
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Oh yes.  I had a 30 minute conference call with several folks at HP in Barcelona on Tuesday.  I had also worked with one of the people in their Customer Assurance group for a day or so using email.  She had asked me to check and reset a couple of parameters, run a head clean and a diagnostic pattern check, then try a print using a new profile and test print created off the Proofing Gloss Paper type which runs at a high head setting.

On the diagnostic pattern I see banding on the matt black patch.  As I’ve not run any matt paper this shouldn’t have affected anything I've done, but it will need to be cured at some point if the printer stays.  After resetting the papers and making the new profile I ran the same test print I'd been using before, a dark reflection off the ocean of a pre-dawn sky.  R/G/B = 40/50/70 if I remember right.

I didn't see any head strikes this time, although the paper buckled pretty badly, in fact the pics I posted above came from this test.  I though it was a little less buckle than I had seen before, but it easy to say that and I didn't take any photos last time.  The image looked flatter though (pun intended, ie less contrast).  I did try my old ICC profile customer paper setup for HM FAP and also didn't see a head strike this time.  I did see the wide band I've always seen along the bottom of the print, 1/4" wide about 1/2" from the bend of the print.  In one of the images I posted with the close up of the zebra stripe you can see it cutting through the stripe column.

I had also been asked about the humidity here, so I bought a temp/humidity gauge, a cheap analog one for the garden.  It was at 40% on Monday night when I tried the tests, but it could have been lower when I started the machine up as we had some frigid air in Mass at that time.  Someone said that HM have a tight spec for their papers, 40-60, but the PDF got HM FAP says 35-65.

The discussion on Tuesday morning was interesting, a lot of it within the HP attendees, including; architect, customer assurance, sales, colour engineering and others I believe.  I captured the following, pretty much all of which revolved around getting the right amount of ink on the paper to prevent this, not about re-engineering it to keep the paper flat; calibration problem with the paper causing too much ink to be deposited, ink vs GE ratios, humidity...there might have been one or 2 other, I don't have my notes, but I think those were the main ones I picked up.  When I mentioned that the test print I ran using the Proof gloss paper setting was flat they said this was to be expected as it uses less ink.  It was clear that this was just a test they were asking me to run, not any kind of a solution.

One of the architects will be in the US next week and is planning to visit on Monday.  I may try some HM PR 308 prints over the weekend given the positive results people have reported.  I'd like to see how much it buckles, and I have a ton of Epson 4000 prints for comparison, but I'll have to fix the MK banding first.  I also plan to startup a humidifier I have and run it to get the humity up to 50% on at leas tone day and try the HM FAP again.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2007, 04:43:58 PM by mcbroomf » Logged

Mike Broomfield
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kers
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« Reply #64 on: February 01, 2007, 03:16:45 PM »
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ONow I tried some printing on Innova F-Type Gloss ( The glossy version ). I calibrated it and profiles it. Now I have some very strange strips on them. Even at A4 and on 13*19. It goes down all the way, but is only visible against the light. ( So it was kind of hard to photogrpah) They go from top to bottom. They run in print direction. So in a portrait picture from top to bottom. They are across the hole print. They are not always the same strength. They nearly look like roller marks. But that's strange ... I don't have anything like that on my Epson Glossy or on my HM Photo Rag prints..
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=97193\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I also have these roller marks on several other third party Glossy papers. So only on the Glossy papers .
Maybe it has to do with the paper not being dry quick enough- and then being very sensitive to be touched by the rollers. I appears to me that for the glossy papers the machine is very sensitive towards the type of paper- also in combination with the GE - The innova does not perform at all- The besy glossy papers that I have seen are the HP Premium INSTANT-DRY Photo Gloss and satin paper GE ON. - especially the satin performs very well. They also have the widest gamut in the dark areas. On the matte papers it is the Hahnemule smooth fineart 310gr that is very beautiful especially black and white.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2007, 03:19:59 PM by kers » Logged

Pieter Kers
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Christopher
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« Reply #65 on: February 01, 2007, 04:09:35 PM »
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I also have these roller marks on several other third party Glossy papers. So only on the Glossy papers .
Maybe it has to do with the paper not being dry quick enough- and then being very sensitive to be touched by the rollers. I appears to me that for the glossy papers the machine is very sensitive towards the type of paper- also in combination with the GE - The innova does not perform at all- The besy glossy papers that I have seen are the HP Premium INSTANT-DRY Photo Gloss and satin paper GE ON. - especially the satin performs very well. They also have the widest gamut in the dark areas. On the matte papers it is the Hahnemule smooth fineart 310gr that is very beautiful especially black and white.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=98753\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yes I noticed them on a few diffrent paper types, but not always. I have to test further more. But It often helps already changeing the paper thicknes. ( In the menu )
I'm gone for the weekend, but I will do some more tests next week. ( Epson, Ilford, and some other glossy papers)
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mcbroomf
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« Reply #66 on: February 05, 2007, 12:33:30 PM »
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HP left a couple of hours ago.  The architect who had planned to come had to cancel his visit and stay in Spain at the last minute, but one of the Service guys came up from Atlanta.

He brought 2 humidity gauges with him and we compared them to the one I had bought last week.  He had a calibrated attachment to a DVM, a cheap digital that he had bought in Lowes, and I had my cheap analog from Home Depot.  Although they varied a little during the 3 hours he was here they read respectively 19%, 25% and 42%....the HM FAP has a 35-65% range, so assuming his calibrated system was on the mark my room is currently running way too low.  The temp is 66F, but it's only 20F outside today.  

As well as the head strikes I have been seeing banding that I have not been able to eliminate on the matt black which shows up on both of the lustre papers I've tried.  Cleaning hadn't eliminate it, but only 1 or 2 of the nozzles were blocked (out of 1024).

He checked the head height to start with (it was set up properly) then ran a head clean and the diagnostic test print.  The matt black still had banding.  Did the same but just for the MK/Red head, same result.  We switched to the ID High Gloss test roll and tried a test print and it looked fine (no MK used), then cleaned the head with a wet, then dry coffee filter.  This eliminated the banding on the diagnostic print.  Later when we switched back to HM FAP the banding had gone.

I had noticed that there was a distinct pause during printing (from USB) and had moved from a long USB/desktop to the supplied USB/laptop, and from 16bit to 8 bit images, but I always seemed to get the same pauses.  I demonstrated this and we eventually fixed it by switching to a different mode in the print (Print directly to Printer.....under the Advanced tab).  The printer now runs with no pauses, although this was not contributing to any issues (just made for longer print times).  I'm not set up for a network connection, but I do plan to switch as using the mode above ties up Photoshop for the duration of the print.

So we switched over to HM FAP, knowing that the humidity is currently very low.  With the paper setting at High we got no head strikes but could easily see the buckle.  The paper setting used for this profile was Photo Peal/Satin which normally starts up as normal paper thickness, so we switched to normal and this time did get head strikes, about the same that I'd seen before.  No banding though, and a check of the diagnostic print afterwards verified that the heads are OK.

I have a new roll of HP Pro Satin that I'm going to start to try, and now that MK is OK I'll try my 24" roll of HM PR 308.  I think HM FAP is a dead end until I get the humidity under control.  And even then I'm not sure, I see little dull spots on the paper.  Might also be a humidity thing,  It doesn't look like flaking.

A couple of useful things I picked up...

To clean the print head (last resort if you have banding and the auto clean routine is not working).  Slightly wet a coffee filter.  Dab the print head up/down on the filter twice, 2 different spots, then once on a dry spot.  Do not slide over the head like you do with the swabs supplied with the heads.  This technique was also mentioned by the tech support guys I spoke to over the phone.

How to read the diagnostics image.  Each head has 1024 nozzles and each of them are printed on the image.  You can easily see when one is missing.  Up to 100 can be missing as long as they are not clustered in a line, so don't worry about 1 or 2. (Personally I'd start to worry if I saw 10 or so missing, but that's the message).

The Epson's have a tank that you can slide out and replace for waste ink.  I've replaced mine once (Epson 4k) in 3 years.  The HP has something similar, but it is part of a larger mechanism that is replaced as a whole unit and is not user replaceable.  Bad news, but it should last 2 years if the printer is being used daily with moderate use (I think he said ~5 prints, didn't mention the size).

Unfortunately I'm going to be away for 11 or 12 days so I won't have a chance to test out more papers and play with humidity (if I can force it higher in the room).  I'll be leaving it on and will run a diagnostic print when I get back to see if all is well before working with new papers.

Thanks to HP and particularly JJ for excellent support.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2007, 12:37:33 PM by mcbroomf » Logged

Mike Broomfield
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Tom.D.Arch
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« Reply #67 on: February 06, 2007, 12:18:54 AM »
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It may be obvious to a lot of people reading this thread, but i thought I'd point out an issue.  The paper is fairly thick and stored as a tight roll.  Over time, the paper will 'equalize' its humidity to the surroundings - if that roll has been in relatively dry air for weeks, it will take quite a while for it to adjust to the increased humidity that a humidifier will offer.  You may get odd results at the transition from where the outside layer of the roll has been exposed to air and from the edges of the roll inwards.

Anyway, thanks for both serving as a guinea pig and for reporting on your run through the lab maze!
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kers
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« Reply #68 on: February 06, 2007, 10:17:59 AM »
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I am having problems printing large photo's from photoshop CS2 withh teh z3100 connected over the ethernet.  I am using Mac OSX 10.4.8
when the file is over 200MB - photoshop says it can't print because of a program error-
I think the problem is related tot CS2...

does anybody experience the same problem or has a solution?

thanks in advance!  
Pieter Kers
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Pieter Kers
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marty m
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« Reply #69 on: February 07, 2007, 09:49:42 AM »
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I posted a number of questions in the other thread on "new user" observations, including questions on some of the reports of problems in this thread.

But rather than repeat those questions here, I posted only once in the other thread.

Any response to any of my questions would be *greatly* appreciated!
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Christopher
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« Reply #70 on: February 07, 2007, 04:22:13 PM »
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Is there any way ro buy some of the swabs supplied with the heads extra from HP ? or are there other companies who make something similiar.

I mean I will try the coffee trick, but I can't believe that HP doesn't sell them...
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mcbroomf
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« Reply #71 on: February 07, 2007, 06:40:39 PM »
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I looked all over their website when I first had the problem and couldn't find the swabs.  The service guy who visited me told me until now they have always been told that the heads should never be touched (including during install...this is the 1st time that the swab wipe has been part of the install).  In the field however they had figured out the coffee filter trick on other printers.  He specifically said that they should not be wiped though, just an up/down dab.

Lucky I still had some coffee filters, I switched to expresso a few years ago ....  
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Mike Broomfield
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« Reply #72 on: February 07, 2007, 06:45:52 PM »
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It may be obvious to a lot of people reading this thread, but i thought I'd point out an issue.  The paper is fairly thick and stored as a tight roll.  Over time, the paper will 'equalize' its humidity to the surroundings - if that roll has been in relatively dry air for weeks, it will take quite a while for it to adjust to the increased humidity that a humidifier will offer.  You may get odd results at the transition from where the outside layer of the roll has been exposed to air and from the edges of the roll inwards.

Anyway, thanks for both serving as a guinea pig and for reporting on your run through the lab maze!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99408\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Tom, thanks...I very much hope that I'm through it (the maze) now.

The service guy who visited recommended that a roll of paper be stored in the plastic bag it ships in when not in use, even over night.  I suppose this makes sense if you know the humidity is changing and heading out of spec, but otherwise I don't know, I think there are too many other changes; the paper curl getting worse towards the end of the roll, the change as you say in the middle, especially if you are going through a roll fast.
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Mike Broomfield
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« Reply #73 on: February 09, 2007, 03:09:20 AM »
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Chris, I don't know if the problem appears on smaller prints, I only have 17 and 24" rolls.

Andre, for the same reason I can't print on any cut paper, but yesterday on 17 Epson Premium Lustre I had regular banding but not the zebra stripes.

I have just tried a print with the supplied HP USB cable from my laptop and I got one faint mark, so this does not seem to be the solution.  The fact that it's only one instead of 5 or 6 is not much of a surprise as yesterday I was getting only 2 columns on some tests.  I'm printing another as I type.

I took a photo of an area from one of yesterday's just to show how similar it is to your problem Andre.  The interesting thing here is that in the dark area between the top and bottom sections you can see that there is colour amid the faint scuffs, so I'm confident now with your and Neils's comments that it's a head strike.

Oh well, the next test came off and it's got 2 very obvious columns.

Andre, thanks for the warning about the firmaware update.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=97071\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hello:
Why Z3100 that HP send to testings go so fine and doesnt from customers (so many problems)?
May be HP calibrate this printers for testings proof. I dont Know
When I buy a car I dont testing tires or engine, only get inside and drive.
Put all the machines together and back to HP and get your money back.
Together it is more powerfull that one by one
I was thinking buy Z3100 but I dont. HP can put some ketchup and moustard and eat it.
Good luck
Regards from Spain  
Luka
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Christopher
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« Reply #74 on: February 09, 2007, 04:52:06 AM »
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Hello:
Why Z3100 that HP send to testings go so fine and doesnt from customers (so many problems)?
May be HP calibrate this printers for testings proof. I dont Know
When I buy a car I dont testing tires or engine, only get inside and drive.
Put all the machines together and back to HP and get your money back.
Together it is more powerfull that one by one
I was thinking buy Z3100 but I dont. HP can put some ketchup and moustard and eat it.
Good luck
Regards from Spain  
Luka
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99994\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yout statement has one problem. You use a FORUM as to look how many problems are there. People who don't have any problems normaly don't post at all. It is the same with every product. Look at some Canon or Nikon forum.... YOu could thing both companies couldn't make one single good camera, but they do.

For me and I think a lot of other people the printer works fantastic and we wouldn't switch to the old Epsons or the bulky Canons... but everyone should do what he wants. Good look.
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madmanchan
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« Reply #75 on: February 09, 2007, 05:59:54 AM »
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Yeah I agree here. Should try and visit a car forum. You'd think that all new model cars are broken!
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Bill Koenig
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« Reply #76 on: February 09, 2007, 09:52:59 AM »
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Yout statement has one problem. You use a FORUM as to look how many problems are there. People who don't have any problems normaly don't post at all. It is the same with every product. Look at some Canon or Nikon forum.... YOu could thing both companies couldn't make one single good camera, but they do.

For me and I think a lot of other people the printer works fantastic and we wouldn't switch to the old Epsons or the bulky Canons... but everyone should do what he wants. Good look.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99998\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hmmm, maybe thats the reason why there hasn't been all that much posted about the new Epson 3800.  
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Bill Koenig,
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« Reply #77 on: February 09, 2007, 01:10:09 PM »
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He brought 2 humidity gauges with him and we compared them to the one I had bought last week.  He had a calibrated attachment to a DVM, a cheap digital that he had bought in Lowes, and I had my cheap analog from Home Depot.  Although they varied a little during the 3 hours he was here they read respectively 19%, 25% and 42%....the HM FAP has a 35-65% range, so assuming his calibrated system was on the mark my room is currently running way too low.  The temp is 66F, but it's only 20F outside today.

Mike, if you're looking for a good humidifier, I can recommend these:
http://www.venta-airwasher.com/

One advantage of those is that the air can't get too humid.

Andy
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LUKA
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« Reply #78 on: February 09, 2007, 01:35:20 PM »
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Yout statement has one problem. You use a FORUM as to look how many problems are there. People who don't have any problems normaly don't post at all. It is the same with every product. Look at some Canon or Nikon forum.... YOu could thing both companies couldn't make one single good camera, but they do.

For me and I think a lot of other people the printer works fantastic and we wouldn't switch to the old Epsons or the bulky Canons... but everyone should do what he wants. Good look.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99998\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

When so many people have the SAME mechanic/physical problem, it is a real defect and no a forum question or no correct software use, I think. Many those people had other large printers before. I will searching for more info about this machine, so I need one (HP, Epson...)
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mcbroomf
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« Reply #79 on: February 09, 2007, 01:52:55 PM »
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Thanks Andy, I may well go for one of these.  The small one should fit the bill. I may eventually get a humidifier added to my heating as I have forced hot air.  

How does this unit deal with the deposits one usually sees from evaporation units, or does it work in such a way that this is not a problem?

....

Just a comment on my opinion of the z3100 due to the last few posts.

I agree with several posts that forums tend to get used for discussion of problems with gear.  I also agree that this doesn't necessarily mean that the gear of the company is no good.  The great advantage of internet forums of course is the ability to share knowledge, good and bad, and quickly highlight it to the manufacturer who can then decide on an action (or inaction).

In my particular case I was very disappointed (of course) that my printer didn't work out of the box like many other new users, however HP responded splendidly to my problems.  In fact I would say that they took a particular interest as they realized that the incompatibility I was reporting with HM FAP was in their best interest to fix.  While helping me they identified the problem I had in my own home (20% humidity or less), and fixed the problem with my MK head that was most likely caused due to the head strikes (they are also sending me a spare head in case the one I had dies prematurely, and they are also going to work on a new custom profile for HM FAP that I should be able to try even with the low humidity).

I have no particular allegiance with HP, in fact all of my printers to date have been Epson (with practically no head clog issues), but who knows what I will buy next, most probably the one that in my opinion (and others) at the time offers the best combination/balance of; cost, cost of ownership, image quality and perhaps flexibility ......  HP/Canon/Epson, who knows.  But my current experience with HP will not affect that decision (assuming it is good from now and is as good or better reliability wise).

Enough rambling.  I'm away until next Friday but I hope to be printing up a storm when I get back....otherwise you'll be hearing from me again ...   and maybe you will in any case so that I can report success!
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Mike Broomfield
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