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Author Topic: Need to shoot paintings. Eyelike 22  (Read 6035 times)
ynp
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« on: January 21, 2007, 02:16:16 PM »
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My wife is organizing an exhibition in Moscow. She is going to bring about 40 oil and acrylic paintings to Russia from France for a show. I am helping her out with the exhibition. I own a scanner and she asked me to prepare the files for a catalogue  (it is not the first time and I have some photo experience). Unfortunately the French agent sent us 4,5 by 6 cm. transparencies which  had totally blocked shadows. I was unable to open the shadows and extract details.  They used Fuji Velvia to  film the paintings. It was a disarter.
It looks like I will be going to have to reshoot  the paintings myself during the process of stretching  and framing. I have some experience with paintings being a collector . I own and use Bron flashes and have a 4 by 5 field camera, an Alpa with an Eyelike eMotion 22 back. I sold my Rollei 6008 with a P1 db20 back two weeks ago (in anticipation of Hy6).
I plan to shoot in a framing workshop and I will have only 1 day to have the work done because of the printing deadlines.
I am considering some options to increase my productivity and opted LF film out. I will use my e22. We have a home made copying frame to place the paintings vertically.  (different sizes up to 2 by 3 m.) I will be shooting off the 2,7 m heavy tripod .

1) Alpa with my 35 mm or 60mm f/4.0 Schneider Digitars. I used Alpas for copying   before. I am scared to move in that direction because I feel that I need  easer focusing and  I feel my lenses are too wide. I do not want to fight with keeping the sensor plane parallel  all the time. Even tethering will not help too much.
2) To Borrow a Sinar M with an AF module from a friend and his only  80 mm AF lens. I heard from a dealer that I will be able to use my Schneider Variogon in Hasselblad V mount  on the Sinar. I thought  that  a zoom lens will let me save some time, I do not want to move my tripod too much.
2) To rent (for a price) a Rollei 6008 with a Variogon.

What you experienced pros can recommend me? What I am missing?

I am no professional,   I do not have a WEB site.
Thanks in advance.

Yevgeny
Moscow, Russia
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rainer_v
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« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2007, 06:47:26 PM »
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which final size you want to reproduce the images?
in general your 35mm lense on the alpa should be fine for the large sizes, its not too wide if you just can move around 3 meters back or high. maybee you should make a simpke construction to put the images on a 45% angle, yxou can use some wooden plate therefore. you can go more far away and it will eb much easier framing / focussing. work with the alpa. the 35 + the 60mm lenses will be fine probably. take care of moiree, try to stop down to f22 or f32 to use difraction of the lenses.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2007, 04:05:19 AM by rehnniar » Logged

rainer viertlböck
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tom_l
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« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2007, 12:47:49 AM »
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hI,
the A22 will be just fine i suppose,
a great lens for small and medium 8>1m) sized painting is obviously a 120mm Macro, fine, sharp. I have a V-system, whenever the 120mm is too long, i take the 80mm  and the 60mm. if i'm on location and there's no place to move. I'm not that happy with the barrel distortion of the 60mm at 4-6m from a rectangular frame, I wonder how it will be with a wider lens.


tom-
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ynp
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« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2007, 04:40:42 AM »
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which final size you want to reproduce the images?
in general your 35mm lense on the alpa should be fine for the large sizes. take care of moiree, try to stop down to f22 or f32 to use difraction of the lenses.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=96901\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Ranier,
Thank you for the reply. I will need A3 images for the catalogue and one  bigger image for a poster. The printshop accepts RGB 8bit.

I used my 35mm Digitar for copying pictures before. Indeed it is not "Too" wide and has zero distortion. It is easier to focus than a helvetar or a 60mm. I just wanted something longer and more forgiving in terms of control of verticals. Any tilt of the camera and I will have to correct the Image in Photoshop. Too timeconsuming. I decided to explore a zoom option to save time and to finish the work in one day. Pehaps I am wrong and i'd better use the gear I am familiar with.

And thank you very much for your advice to stop down the lens to fight moiree. I have never thought about that and used  only anti-moiree plug-ins in software.  I will follow this advice.
Thanks again,
Yevgeny
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ynp
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« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2007, 04:51:51 AM »
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hI,
a great lens for small and medium 8>1m) sized painting is obviously a 120mm Macro, fine, sharp. I have a V-system, whenever the 120mm is too long, i take the 80mm  and the 60mm. if i'm on location and there's no place to move. I'm not that happy with the barrel distortion of the 60mm at 4-6m from a rectangular frame, I wonder how it will be with a wider lens.
tom-
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=96934\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Tom, thank you.
I am very happy with my ALPA wides. A 35 mm Digitar is the best wide lens I used. A 48mm Helvetar is soft at 5,5-11 on digital. Both lens have almost no distortion.

Perhaps I will have to shoot both my Alpa and a rented SLR with longer lens.

Does anybody have access to Sinar M system. Does it mount V series lenses?
 
Yevgeny
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thsinar
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« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2007, 08:05:40 AM »
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Tom, thank you.

Does anybody have access to Sinar M system. Does it mount V series lenses?
 
Yevgeny
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=96957\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Dear Yevgeny,

Please be informed that the Sinar does allow the use of Hasselblad V series lenses: for this you need to fit the Sinar m body with the "Lens Module Hasselblad V".

So the answer to your question is "YES".

Hope this answer.

Best regards and good luck
Thierry
Sinar AG Switzerland
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Thierry Hagenauer
thasia_cn@yahoo.com
ynp
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« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2007, 10:34:00 AM »
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Dear Yevgeny,

Please be informed that the Sinar does allow the use of Hasselblad V series lenses: for this you need to fit the Sinar m body with the "Lens Module Hasselblad V".

[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thierry,
thank you for your prompt reply. I still feel confused with all this. Am I right to suggest that I will NOT be able to use SINAR M AF Module (for the line of new Zeiss lens) with V series lenses?
My friend has a Sutter (on his P-3) and one lens module (Mirror Module Sinaron Digital AF ). He has no V lens module. The Russian Sinar/Bron dealer thinks that I will be able to mount a V lens on the AF Module .That is why I was planing to use the Sinar. Now I have some doubts. Then I searched this forum and found  a thread where a poster mentioned "Sinar Hasselblad V modul
 [a href=\"http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/lofiversion/index.php/t11121.html]http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/lofive...php/t11121.html[/url]

It looks that i will have to forget about my Zoom idea.

Thank you again,
Yevgeny
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thsinar
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« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2007, 10:52:27 AM »
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Thierry,
thank you for your prompt reply. I still feel confused with all this. Am I right to suggest that I will NOT be able to use SINAR M AF Module (for the line of new Zeiss lens) with V series lenses?
My friend has a Sutter (on his P-3) and one lens module (Mirror Module Sinaron Digital AF ). He has no V lens module. The Russian Sinar/Bron dealer thinks that I will be able to mount a V lens on the AF Module .That is why I was planing to use the Sinar. Now I have some doubts. Then I searched this forum and found  a thread where a poster mentioned "Sinar Hasselblad V modul
 http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/lofive...php/t11121.html

It looks that i will have to forget about my Zoom idea.

Thank you again,
Yevgeny
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=96990\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Dear Yevgeny,

Yes, you are right: you can use the AF modul as well to attach Hasselblad V lenses. It is the same mount. Except that all settings will have to be set manually (f-stop, exposure time). The Lighmetering is working however.
The reason why I mentioned the Hasselblad Modul is because it is a cheaper option and makes more sense when one has non-AF V lenses.
But as said, it wrks well with the AF modul as wel.

Best regards,
Thierry
Sinar Switzerland
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Thierry Hagenauer
thasia_cn@yahoo.com
ynp
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« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2007, 02:23:40 PM »
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Yes, you are right: you can use the AF modul as well to attach Hasselblad V lenses. It is the same mount. ...
Thierry
Sinar Switzerland
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=96993\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thierry,

Thank you for the clarification. I will try the Sinar M on Friday to check the focusing. I got a spare foil stack to shim the back if needed.

All the best,

Yevgeny
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bjanes
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« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2007, 04:49:41 PM »
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It looks like I will be going to have to reshoot  the paintings myself during the process of stretching  and framing. I have some experience with paintings being a collector . I own and use Bron flashes and have a 4 by 5 field camera, an Alpa with an Eyelike eMotion 22 back. I sold my Rollei 6008 with a P1 db20 back two weeks ago (in anticipation of Hy6).
I plan to shoot in a framing workshop and I will have only 1 day to have the work done because of the printing deadlines.
I am considering some options to increase my productivity and opted LF film out. I will use my e22. We have a home made copying frame to place the paintings vertically.  (different sizes up to 2 by 3 m.) I will be shooting off the 2,7 m heavy tripod .

1) Alpa with my 35 mm or 60mm f/4.0 Schneider Digitars. I used Alpas for copying   before. I am scared to move in that direction because I feel that I need  easer focusing and  I feel my lenses are too wide. I do not want to fight with keeping the sensor plane parallel  all the time. Even tethering will not help too much.
2) To Borrow a Sinar M with an AF module from a friend and his only  80 mm AF lens. I heard from a dealer that I will be able to use my Schneider Variogon in Hasselblad V mount  on the Sinar. I thought  that  a zoom lens will let me save some time, I do not want to move my tripod too much.
2) To rent (for a price) a Rollei 6008 with a Variogon.

What you experienced pros can recommend me? What I am missing?

I am no professional,   I do not have a WEB site.
Thanks in advance.

Yevgeny
Moscow, Russia
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=96860\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yevgeny,

Many musuems use the BetterLight scanning back on a 4 by 5 camera for reproduction of artwork. It is not cheap, but is much more economical than a CCD back for medium or large format (such as the Jenoptik back).
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ynp
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« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2007, 10:28:27 AM »
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Yevgeny,

Many musuems use the BetterLight scanning back on a 4 by 5 camera for reproduction of artwork. It is not cheap, but is much more economical than a CCD back for medium or large format (such as the Jenoptik back).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=97066\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hi,
I am not a professional photographer,  and we are not a museum. We publish 2-3 catalogues a year and 5-7 posters only.   I am not familiar with scan backs and do not have hot lights. We used a pro with a Phase scanning back on a 45 Sinar some years back with good results.  I own e22 and I am comfortable with this back. We can get very good colors in  Eyelike CaprurePro  and e22 is an overkill for most of our catalogues work in terms of resolution. A five mpix digicam is enough for a lot of subjects. It is all about colors for me.I spent a month or two to fine-tune the colors in my software and to understand Capture Pro 4.3 (thanks to the RG posters) and I am scared to try any new software or a back for copying work. I understand that I will have to move in the direction of Sinar's new software, but now I prefer to stay with the SW I know. BTW the Stefan’s Konverter is brilliant! I am trying to use it with Lightroom.
Yevgeny
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thsinar
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« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2007, 02:28:44 PM »
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Hi,
I am not a professional photographer,  and we are not a museum. We publish 2-3 catalogues a year and 5-7 posters only.   I am not familiar with scan backs and do not have hot lights. We used a pro with a Phase scanning back on a 45 Sinar some years back with good results.  I own e22 and I am comfortable with this back. We can get very good colors in  Eyelike CaprurePro  and e22 is an overkill for most of our catalogues work in terms of resolution. A five mpix digicam is enough for a lot of subjects. It is all about colors for me.I spent a month or two to fine-tune the colors in my software and to understand Capture Pro 4.3 (thanks to the RG posters) and I am scared to try any new software or a back for copying work. I understand that I will have to move in the direction of Sinar's new software, but now I prefer to stay with the SW I know. BTW the Stefan’s Konverter is brilliant! I am trying to use it with Lightroom.
Yevgeny
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=97175\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yevgeny,

your approach is right: stick with the software you know and which gives you satisfaction. The Sinar Captureshop SW is certainly able to get you there where you want as well, but it needs to know and fine tune it.
Only when the new Sinar Exposure will be available would I suggest to give it a try and change, since this SW will allow much more and have a very user friendly workflow.

Good luck for your reproduction work,
Thierry
Sinar AG Switzerland
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2007, 02:45:19 PM »
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Hello Thierry,
when will Exposure be available?
I also assume it will have the Live-Image ?
Regards,
Willem.
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Willem Rethmeier
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« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2007, 02:55:55 PM »
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Hello Thierry,
when will Exposure be available?
I also assume it will have the Live-Image ?
Regards,
Willem.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=97210\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

hi Willem,

It is planed to have the first beta version in a couple of month or so, then depending on the beta-testings, .... it can be released soon thereafter or then, .... take a couple of months longer. Nobody serious can predict this and it is always difficult to predict any date with a software release. I won't do this.

Sinar Exposure will certainly and definitively allow "live-Video", although this feature is not only software related but is also back-dependant and has to be implemented on the hardware side as well.

Best regards,
Thierry
Sinar AG Switzerland
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #14 on: January 23, 2007, 03:37:26 PM »
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Thierry,
Thanks for that!
It looks it might be a nice program.
Something to look forward too.
Regards,
Willem.
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Willem Rethmeier
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Sydney Australia
howiesmith
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« Reply #15 on: January 23, 2007, 04:53:52 PM »
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My wife is organizing an exhibition in Moscow. She is going to bring about 40 oil and acrylic paintings to Russia from France for a show. I am helping her out with the exhibition. I own a scanner and she asked me to prepare the files for a catalogue  (it is not the first time and I have some photo experience). Unfortunately the French agent sent us 4,5 by 6 cm. transparencies which  had totally blocked shadows. I was unable to open the shadows and extract details.  They used Fuji Velvia to  film the paintings. It was a disarter.
It looks like I will be going to have to reshoot  the paintings myself during the process of stretching  and framing. I have some experience with paintings being a collector . I own and use Bron flashes and have a 4 by 5 field camera, an Alpa with an Eyelike eMotion 22 back. I sold my Rollei 6008 with a P1 db20 back two weeks ago (in anticipation of Hy6).
I plan to shoot in a framing workshop and I will have only 1 day to have the work done because of the printing deadlines.
I am considering some options to increase my productivity and opted LF film out. I will use my e22. We have a home made copying frame to place the paintings vertically.  (different sizes up to 2 by 3 m.) I will be shooting off the 2,7 m heavy tripod .

1) Alpa with my 35 mm or 60mm f/4.0 Schneider Digitars. I used Alpas for copying   before. I am scared to move in that direction because I feel that I need  easer focusing and  I feel my lenses are too wide. I do not want to fight with keeping the sensor plane parallel  all the time. Even tethering will not help too much.
2) To Borrow a Sinar M with an AF module from a friend and his only  80 mm AF lens. I heard from a dealer that I will be able to use my Schneider Variogon in Hasselblad V mount  on the Sinar. I thought  that  a zoom lens will let me save some time, I do not want to move my tripod too much.
2) To rent (for a price) a Rollei 6008 with a Variogon.

What you experienced pros can recommend me? What I am missing?

I am no professional,   I do not have a WEB site.
Thanks in advance.

Yevgeny
Moscow, Russia
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=96860\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Several comments,

1)  Exposure will be the same for all if you first setup the lights and don't move them.  Move only the camera as needed.  I would polarize both the lights and camera to make sure there is no glare at all.  Two gels and a filter.

2)  The subject is flat.  The camera to subject distance may not change often, and not at all if you don't move the camera.  Auto focus probably isn't needed.  Setting the lens at the optimum aperature (like f/8) will likely result in enough depth of field to solve any focusing problems.

3)   The camera's sensor can be made essentially parallel to the subject by measuring the height of the sensor from the floor and setting that to the same heght as the center of the subject.  Make sure the camera is centered left to right.

3)  Moving the tripod can be minimized with a zoom.  But good results can be achieved by starting with the largest subject wand working down.  The frame need not be filled for each subject.  Only move in as the cropping becomes too much.

4)  For small subjects, a wide angle lens may get the camera too close and cause shadows.  I would go wiith a longer lens.
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ynp
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« Reply #16 on: January 29, 2007, 12:34:41 PM »
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Several comments,

1)  Exposure will be the same for all if you first setup the lights and don't move them.  Move only the camera as needed.  I would polarize both the lights and camera to make sure there is no glare at all.  Two gels and a filter.

2)  The subject is flat.  The camera to subject distance may not change often, and not at all if you don't move the camera.  Auto focus probably isn't needed.  Setting the lens at the optimum aperature (like f/8) will likely result in enough depth of field to solve any focusing problems.

3)   The camera's sensor can be made essentially parallel to the subject by measuring the height of the sensor from the floor and setting that to the same heght as the center of the subject.  Make sure the camera is centered left to right.

3)  Moving the tripod can be minimized with a zoom.  But good results can be achieved by starting with the largest subject wand working down.  The frame need not be filled for each subject.  Only move in as the cropping becomes too much.

4)  For small subjects, a wide angle lens may get the camera too close and cause shadows.  I would go wiith a longer lens.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=97230\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thank you for the advice. Your approach worked. I followed your advice with a lot of success. I spent 2 days shooting the paintings with my ALPA and 35mm digitar, two softboxes crisscrossed without polarizer sheets (was unable to source the filters in Moscow).  There were some unwanted reflections and I was trying to eliminate them with the lens shift. It worked.

I wanted to use a Sinar m, my friend brought it to the framing shop ti try. He has it with a Sinarback 54m on and we took some exposures. I was impressed with the camera. The AF is faster then my Rollie AF, the camera is not too heavy, easy to handle, but a way too expensive! He shoots to Sinar Capture  Shop , the software I don’t know. I decided not to risk with an unknown gear and proceeded with my ALPA and one lens.  
Thanks again!
Yevgeny
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eronald
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« Reply #17 on: January 29, 2007, 12:51:40 PM »
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BTW, I am located in Paris and I can generate camera and  printer profiles ...
It might be fun to try this.

Edmund
« Last Edit: January 29, 2007, 12:52:11 PM by eronald » Logged
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