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Author Topic: To All the Nay Sayers 35Digi  (Read 56520 times)
JTFOTO
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« on: January 26, 2007, 06:57:16 PM »
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I am new here and have been digital only about a year.  Coming from 99% RZ work and now have an H1 w/ a P25 and a Canon 1Ds MII.

I shoot and assist.  Trying to let go of the crutch of assisting, but it can be a bit tough.  I decided to lease my own gear to have instead of rent.

I have assisted most of the big guys and girls.  From Sims and McDean to Meisel & Testino.  I recently had the pleasure of working with Annie Liebovitz as a 5th.

She has been shooting all her editorial work with Canon 1Ds MII bodies.  These have been major jobs for Vanity Fair and various other mags and recently went on a major Ad job that will be worldwide.

The TomKat cover was all Canon and the last two or three editorials were all Canon.

The last shoot had a Canon rep come by with the new 22MP digi demo body.  It is half the size of the 1Ds Mark II.  They said they are hustling to make lenses that will work with what this body can resolve.  They may even make a new mount again for an entirely new lens design.  It won't be out before Phot Show East.

So to all the people out there saying that 35 digi doesn't work and clients don't like it and it looks softer.  If Annie can use it for major Editorial work, why can't we.  Shoot raw and tweek it in post.

I am going back to 35mm and the ease and wait for the new Can2235.  Anyone want an H1 w/ a P25, two lenses 50-110 & 150, 1.7 extender and two extension tubes PM me.

We chase our own tails thinking we need this and that.  A couple of 35DIGI's and four or five lenses and we are good to go.  Pefectly fitting in one comfortable bag.
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David WM
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« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2007, 08:22:42 PM »
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I suppose you need to look at the work you do and the difference you see.
Yes optics are the main reason I went back to a MF DB. When you look at a better sensor, better optics and less time in post it starts adding up.
I think Annie used to shoot RZ and appeared to be sponsored by Mamiya (at lease I remember Mamiya ads with her work). Maybe that sort of deal has an influence on what she uses now, but those deals aren't available to everyone. Or perhaps she thought that if she has to turn the camera on its side to shoot a vertical then you might as well use 35mm.
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Graham Mitchell
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« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2007, 09:33:36 PM »
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So to all the people out there saying that 35 digi doesn't work and clients don't like it and it looks softer.  If Annie can use it for major Editorial work, why can't we.  Shoot raw and tweek it in post.

Most people who shoot with medium format seem to prefer the large viewfinder, or the waistlevel view or the lenses, or the way the detachable back can be used on a view camera, or the ease of cleaning the sensor, etc, not the resolution per se. No amount of megapixels from Canon could make me switch back to that tiny and miscalibrated viewfinder.

Also unknown is the cost. Those ultra-sharp lenses may well be double the cost of L lenses, not to mention that a decent range of them might not be out for several years.

The body itself will be in the region of $10K. It sounds like a body and 4 of the new lenses could set you back nearly $20K.

Pie in the sky
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« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2007, 11:24:35 PM »
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yeah the canons suck for just the most important function" looking through the viewfinder and shooting waht you see"........I started on medium format and once you have looked through those beautiful viewfinders you cant go back. smooth as velvet. go ahead and compare the files on your monitor but once you start working in the field it really comes down to "what camera do I want to work with every day".......I hate my canon 1Ds, it doesnt feel like a real camera.
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nicolaasdb
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« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2007, 11:53:00 PM »
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ds1markII is perfect for all work...including billboard size images and you will NOT be able to tell the difference!!

I know this because I have been shooting with the ds1 for over 2 years and have had BB up in NYC and LA.....BUT I still bought myself a A65..WHY??? because I can and I like to shoot without having to crop 20% from the image to get it in magazine format! and there is a difference.

I will also not stop shooting with my DS1..love the camera and it is a great backup to my A65.

If you assisted Ms Liebowitz....you also know she shoots A75 on Mamyia's 645afd.....but if you are at her level...you can shoot with a disposable camera and people will still kiss your ass and tell you the image is fabulous......this comes from years and years and years of shooting and starting in the right decade..when photographers were regarded as artists....now we are just regarded as a push-button fingers...and thanks to many "idiots" out there calling themselves photographers and shooting for pennies!!! Pretty soon most of us will end up as nothing more than just the art directors assistant!
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« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2007, 12:12:51 AM »
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Nicolaasdb!

You couldn't have said it any better!

(.but if you are at her level...you can shoot with a disposable camera and people will still kiss your ass and tell you the image is fabulous......this comes from years and years and years of shooting and starting in the right decade..when photographers were regarded as artists....now we are just regarded as a push-button fingers...and thanks to many "idiots" out there calling themselves photographers and shooting for pennies!!! Pretty soon most of us will end up as nothing more than just the art directors assistant!)

Cheers,
Willem
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Willem Rethmeier
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« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2007, 12:52:30 AM »
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All I can say is that I've been shooting with the Canon 1Ds, 6x6 film and 4x5 for years and just took delivery of a brand new Phase One P30 2 days ago. After my first test shoot today shooting outside strobes tethered to my laptop I'm sold!!! The image straight out of the camera processed thru C1 Pro was dead on, all i did was fine tune the WB and add a "70's LOOK" for fun. I'm sold! I've croppped this shot quite abit.

Cheers,
Ben Edmonson
www.benedmonson.com
« Last Edit: January 27, 2007, 12:58:33 AM by benedmonson » Logged
Graham Mitchell
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« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2007, 04:08:20 AM »
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The last shoot had a Canon rep come by with the new 22MP digi demo body.  It is half the size of the 1Ds Mark II.  They said they are hustling to make lenses that will work with what this body can resolve.  They may even make a new mount again for an entirely new lens design.

How can they have a demo body before they have decided on the lens mount??

Ben, that file sings to me
« Last Edit: January 27, 2007, 04:08:52 AM by foto-z » Logged

Graham Mitchell - www.graham-mitchell.com
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« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2007, 04:18:20 AM »
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If Canon is coming out with a new camera late this year, the Dalsa & Kodax will have to make a true FF sensor. Otherwise MFD will lose even more market share. Nikon will be anouncing new cameras this year also.
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Denis Montalbetti
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« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2007, 04:50:41 AM »
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When Canon or Nikon is coming with a new camera that rivals the quality of my MFDB more power to them! I will definitely buy one that is for sure.

But sofar my MFDB makes a 1DSMkII as well as a D2x look like a toy camera qualitywise and as long as that is the case I will continue to use my MFDB when quality really counts.

Naturally there are applications where I use the Nikon. Saying that you cannot see the difference means that you have bad eyes or you are just fooling yourself for whatever reason.

Funny that the topic starter felt the need to name famous/well-recognized photographers to try to get some credibility for himself. Is that 'greatness by association' or something

Sofar I have seen no indication whatsoever that Nikon or Canon will come with a FF (or bigger) 22MP sensor with a 12stops DR and 16bits colors anywhere. The only place where they currently exist is in speculations on the Internet.

I would say, 'SHOW ME THE MONEY'!

Designing and fabricating new higher resolution glass is a major project. The statement that Canon will come with a whole new line of high resolution glass including a new mount sounds like SF.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2007, 04:56:38 AM by Dustbak » Logged
free1000
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« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2007, 07:06:23 AM »
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the Dalsa & Kodax will have to make a true FF sensor.

Steady on. Dalsa can't yet reliably make a 33Mp sensor without an f-ing line down the middle.

Frankly another 2mm this way or that on the sensor dimension won't change anything. I will be happy with an A75 and a clean sensor, which luckily I do have.  

I think the lead post is bull in any case. Canon would alreay be shipping sharper lenses if it was easy to make them at the right price point.

Love my A75, but for fast moving editorial style work I also stick with the 1DsII, there is no way an MF camera can compete with the speed of operation of the Canon, nor need it to have value.
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Willow Photography
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« Reply #11 on: January 27, 2007, 07:56:03 AM »
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I am new here and have been digital only about a year.  Coming from 99% RZ work and now have an H1 w/ a P25 and a Canon 1Ds MII.

I shoot and assist.  Trying to let go of the crutch of assisting, but it can be a bit tough.  I decided to lease my own gear to have instead of rent.

I have assisted most of the big guys and girls.  From Sims and McDean to Meisel & Testino.  I recently had the pleasure of working with Annie Liebovitz as a 5th.

She has been shooting all her editorial work with Canon 1Ds MII bodies.  These have been major jobs for Vanity Fair and various other mags and recently went on a major Ad job that will be worldwide.

The TomKat cover was all Canon and the last two or three editorials were all Canon.

The last shoot had a Canon rep come by with the new 22MP digi demo body.  It is half the size of the 1Ds Mark II.  They said they are hustling to make lenses that will work with what this body can resolve.  They may even make a new mount again for an entirely new lens design.  It won't be out before Phot Show East.

So to all the people out there saying that 35 digi doesn't work and clients don't like it and it looks softer.  If Annie can use it for major Editorial work, why can't we.  Shoot raw and tweek it in post.

I am going back to 35mm and the ease and wait for the new Can2235.  Anyone want an H1 w/ a P25, two lenses 50-110 & 150, 1.7 extender and two extension tubes PM me.

We chase our own tails thinking we need this and that.  A couple of 35DIGI's and four or five lenses and we are good to go.  Pefectly fitting in one comfortable bag.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=97712\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]



I doubt that Canon will reveal a new camera in front of so many people that will be
on a shoot with AL.
Canon is exstremly carefull not to reveal any of their news before they are ready to
present a finished product.
People working for Canon have been fired for leaking out to the press information on
what to come.
No way they will let JTPhoto tell a story like this.
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Willow Photography
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« Reply #12 on: January 27, 2007, 08:16:01 AM »
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I doubt that Canon will reveal a new camera in front of so many people that will be
on a shoot with AL.
Canon is exstremly carefull not to reveal any of their news before they are ready to
present a finished product.
People working for Canon have been fired for leaking out to the press information on
what to come.
No way they will let JTPhoto tell a story like this.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=97759\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


They've been going round circulating various prototypes for more than a year now. What the actual product to hit the streets will be nobody except them knows for sure. Of course, I'm sceptical that the prototype's files Raw would be easily processed with off the shelf software

Edmund
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James Russell
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« Reply #13 on: January 27, 2007, 08:25:21 AM »
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Steady on. Dalsa can't yet reliably make a 33Mp sensor without an f-ing line down the middle.

Frankly another 2mm this way or that on the sensor dimension won't change anything. I will be happy with an A75 and a clean sensor, which luckily I do have. 

I think the lead post is bull in any case. Canon would alreay be shipping sharper lenses if it was easy to make them at the right price point.

Love my A75, but for fast moving editorial style work I also stick with the 1DsII, there is no way an MF camera can compete with the speed of operation of the Canon, nor need it to have value.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=97756\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

This is all he said she said type of stuff and true or not it's really not relevent.  Editorial is way diferent than commercial and even when it's not, it's the talent not the capture that matters, though better capture can make a better image.

Most of us use what we use as an elective, not a mandatory from a client, so when we go to work we use what we are comfortable with.

This week I shot 4000 files with the P-30 and about a thousand with a 1ds2, some of them side by side and except in very extreme low light or a couple of instances where I needed someone running in sequence, there was absolutley no ease or benifit it using the Canon vs. the P-30 and I can promise you the diffference in the files is very much worth the price difference between the two systems.

In fact unless someone shows me images side by side or unless I test something myself nothing about a camera is relevent to me.

Still, this is just rumor and once again even if true really adds nothing to the discussion of why we anyone should chose a certain camera or solution.

ISO, color, software, file depth, format,  lenses and workflow all play into the reasons, but just because anyone decides to shoot with one camera or the other should not be a deciding factor.

Try it for yourself.



JR
« Last Edit: January 27, 2007, 08:32:54 AM by James Russell » Logged
Jonathan Wienke
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« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2007, 08:32:40 AM »
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As a Canon 1-series shooter, I like the files I get, but at the same time, I'm well aware that digital MF goes a step beyond my Canons in terms of overall resolution and dynamic range, at least at lower ISO. Each format has its own advantages and disadvantages, and claiming tha one is better than another is somewhat like claiming that a 3/4 inch wrench is intrinsically superior to a 1/2 inch wrench. The best tool is the one that fits the task you're trying to accomplish. For fast action, especially in low light, MF is not the best tool for the job. For slower-paced work, especially in the controlled environment of a studio, digital MF has many advantages. Whether those advantages are worth the extra cost of digital MF is something each photographer should decide for himself.

The OP seems to be a s##t-disturber lacking in both tact and real experience.
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charles_m
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« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2007, 09:15:54 AM »
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The last shoot had a Canon rep come by with the new 22MP digi demo body.  It is half the size of the 1Ds Mark II.  They said they are hustling to make lenses that will work with what this body can resolve.  They may even make a new mount again for an entirely new lens design.  It won't be out before Phot Show East.

this is yet one more illustration of why this forum should require more information from someone who posts information. yet it's reichmann's choice to allow this potential misinformation to spread.

so this character shows up here, posts under an alias, (just like i'm doing), and posts potentially questionable information, some which might even sully the name of an established commercial photographer, and might also violate an NDA, and yet, the post is either not deleted, or at least, the person not asked to clarify further.

cannot imagine that canon would allow  a "freelance fifth assistant" to see a new product like this, when with one post on the web, and all the details are leaked in an instant, for all the world to see. is it true; i guess we'll never know. if it is true, i'm sure annie will be eager to hire this guy again, now that he potentially violated her NDA. no wonder he's still assisting, when he uses judgement like this.

charles_m
not a real person
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michael
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« Reply #16 on: January 27, 2007, 09:57:53 AM »
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I am reluctant to act as censor here. I delete spam, profanity, rudeness, and outright stupidity, but otherwise work on the assumption that we're all grown-ups, and able to seperate the wheat from the chaff for ourselves.

Censorship is a slippery slope, which I have enough trouble with when skiiing so that I don't need it here as well.

Michael
« Last Edit: January 27, 2007, 09:59:34 AM by michael » Logged
Dustbak
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« Reply #17 on: January 27, 2007, 10:17:05 AM »
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I am reluctant to act as censor here. I delete spam, profanity, rudeness, and outright stupidity, but otherwise work on the assumption that we're all grown-ups, and able to seperate the wheat from the chaff for ourselves.

Censorship is a slippery slope, which I have enough trouble with when skiiing so that I don't need it here as well.

Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=97778\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Excellent! I believe you are quite right in this. Potential misinformation can and is spread virtually everywhere. Even quality newspapers do it daily, knowingly or not.

It can never be an excuse to shut of your own brain. Everybody should take his own responsibility whether to believe a story/post/whatever or not. There is a growing tendency of shoving away this responsibility towards others, this is unfortunate.
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fpoole
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« Reply #18 on: January 27, 2007, 10:45:21 AM »
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JTFOTO,
And your point is HuhHuhHuh.  I don't get it - all this enthusiasm over something that doesn't exist.
And if it did exist now - so what?  It would be just another choice in what I call the "circle of confusion"  in existing equipment choices.

I think most or all of us shoot both formats for a pretty simple reason - there is no one solution that will do it all.  Was there ever one choice?  Actually I think that even the concept of the 2 different formats are irrelevant now or will be in the near future.  No one knows where this is going to evolve into-not even the camera companies.

For me,  right now, for the jobs I have to shoot next week, I need a 35mm body and a mf back.   Prototypes are something I don't have the time to get excited about.

Nicolassdb,
Excellent point, well said, and made me laugh.

Best,

Frank Poole
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tom_l
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« Reply #19 on: January 27, 2007, 12:10:51 PM »
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We can be very lucky to use this wonderful forum, without the rudeness and behaviour we see on dpreview and elsewhere. If a troll shows up, the best thing to do is simply ignoring his post. I mean, i would not register to a forum and behave like the OP did.  There are other ways to say the same thing. I would not go to a soccer forum and explain that i don't like sports.
Back to topic: I really hope there is place in our business, for more than one camera brand with two f:2,8 zooms. If everybody is using the same toy, there will be nothing  more left to use in 10 years. My sh*tty old Blad is doing very well, with it's upside down viewfinder, it's huge mirror, lenses that only go to F:4. And i don't feel the need to upgrade every 2 years and can wait for the P25++ to come out.


tom-
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