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Author Topic: To All the Nay Sayers 35Digi  (Read 56449 times)
eronald
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« Reply #20 on: January 27, 2007, 03:30:26 PM »
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I am reluctant to act as censor here. I delete spam, profanity, rudeness, and outright stupidity, but otherwise work on the assumption that we're all grown-ups, and able to seperate the wheat from the chaff for ourselves.

Censorship is a slippery slope, which I have enough trouble with when skiiing so that I don't need it here as well.

Michael
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Well said! Bravo !

Edmund
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« Reply #21 on: January 27, 2007, 03:40:09 PM »
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Maybe I'm wrong, but I recall Michael saying that this was going to be a big year for Canon, with many new innovations (or words to those effect).

Is this what you had in mind Michael?
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samuel_js
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« Reply #22 on: January 27, 2007, 03:53:35 PM »
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I did a test a few months ago....
A friend of mine says his nikon d70 is incredibly sharp and a fantastic camera. The 1.3x factor is agreat advantage against 1.6x don't you think? he asked me... He talks a lot about resolution, etc...
The next day... I asked him to look throught my 1Ds.  He went like "woooww that's big and bright". Beautiful! Then I took my H1 out of my bag, and then his face was just like frozen... he just said: ahhh yes, a medium format camera... of course.... you have to pay a little more for that kind of experience.......


And I supose most people talking about the great 1dsmII and the new 22mp whatever don't understand that the point with medium/big format photography is not only the quality of the images, is the beautiful photo-experience-feeling that this type of cameras can give.
Please Canoners, leave the MFormaters alone !!  

Best Regards
Samuel
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sundstei
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« Reply #23 on: January 27, 2007, 06:43:08 PM »
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And I supose most people talking about the great 1dsmII and the new 22mp whatever don't understand that the point with medium/big format photography is not only the quality of the images, is the beautiful photo-experience-feeling that this type of cameras can give.
Please Canoners, leave the MFormaters alone !!

Thats really only true for the H1. The Mamiya and Contax both have viewfinders that are similar to the 1Ds. If you start cropping with a 1.1x or a 1.3x (like the P30) you end up with a smaller viewfinder area. Personally I dont need a big viewfinder to make a good photograph. Usually the work is done before i put the camera to my face.

Ps! The Nikon is 1.5x not 1.3x

Erik
« Last Edit: January 27, 2007, 06:44:08 PM by sundstei » Logged
ronno
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« Reply #24 on: January 27, 2007, 07:34:26 PM »
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I think one of the questions here has to be what differences can be seen in the final reproduction. It's easy to look at a computer screen at 100% view and see differences between cameras. But it seems to me that the magazine page (which Annie is often shooting for) is the great equalizer.

I can only assume that Annie would not be using the Canons if she opened Vanity Fair to find that the 1DsII made her look like an arse due to inferior-looking images, compared to her beloved RZ or whatever she's been using most recently. I make this assumption based on the amazing quality of her prints, many of which I have seen in  her gallery shows, including huge prints from the Pirelli calendar, the current show in Brooklyn, etc, etc.

As far as I can tell, she clearly knows a thing or two about reproduction/print quality. And for her small-time advertising clients such as Disney, American Express, etc. the Canon seems to be good enough.

They could probably all sit around a computer monitor and point out differences between files from X and Y camera, but who cares? The operative question seems to be how does it look in the magazine or on those huge America Express billboards? Could any of us look through Annie's published work and tell which was shot with which camera? Could we tell if she used film or digital, or which format?

Of course none of this means that the 35mm cameras are good enough for everyone or for every application...especially if you really want to have a detailed view of WTF is happening in the viewfinder.

[Also, I agree with the above poster. The way I shoot, most of the work is done before I look through the camera. And quite often I am tethered and use the computer monitor as the "viewfinder" after the shot. It's obviously way more detailed that any viewfinder is ever going to be.]

-ron
« Last Edit: January 27, 2007, 07:40:09 PM by ronno » Logged
bcroslin
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« Reply #25 on: January 27, 2007, 07:41:32 PM »
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JTFOTO, I say this with all due respect (for someone who drops other's names but not their own) but who gives a crap what you or your heros shoot with?!

Furthermore, dpreview has a canon forum where people peddle rumors endlessly. Your post would be right at home there.
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« Reply #26 on: January 27, 2007, 07:50:27 PM »
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Personally I dont need a big viewfinder to make a good photograph. Usually the work is done before i put the camera to my face.

Ps! The Nikon is 1.5x not 1.3x

Erik
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That's exactly the question. I like the bright big viewfinder.

Yes, 1.5 then...  

Best regards
Samuel
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« Reply #27 on: January 28, 2007, 12:55:05 AM »
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Hi, everyone. I'm a new forum user. I'm an F-1 user (among other things in other formats), and haven't been using digital too long. I use a Mk. II-N that I have had for almost a year now, and very shortly had a used 20D for backup, but I just broke it...ouch. I am a student journalist who has done some freelance photo editing (Foto-Station work) for Getty Images.

The one (and only) rumor that I have heard several times from one of the top editors there (and that for some reason has not made it into the rumor mills) is that the most exciting feature of the new camera may be a built-in wireless transmitter. Canon bounces ideas back and forth with the press when designing their cameras, and that seemed to be the biggest topic of conversation from for the new model. (Fun trivia: The current Wi-Fi transmitter was an afterthought. Canon did not plan on releasing any wireless technology until the Mk. III, but the press raised such a stink that the technology was going to be in existence, but not usable for several more years, that Canon went ahead and released the external unit, rather than waiting to build it in.) More megapixels don't mean diddly squat for journalists. They are fine with their current 8.2 and 16.7 models, and even use the Mk. Is every now and then when needed. Some even prefer the 1st 1D because a higher flash synch is more important to them than a larger file. More megapixels really are more of a burden than a help in that line of work. In other lines of photography, there is cause for celebration if they are really going up to a 22 MPixel sensor, but not journalism. Larger file sizes mean they need faster computers, MUCH faster networks, and a ton more server space. They shoot JPEG anyhow, to speed up editing and FTP, and thus make sales on the spot from the field, so they are never getting the max quality from their cameras anyhow.

So, as far as I see it, the new sensor wouldn't really mean much to me. What I want to see instead are a higher flash synch, a more comfortable camera (Nikon really has it down for comfort and ease of control...too bad they are so far behind the technology curve that they aren't even worth purchasing unless you already have a bunch of lenses), a nice big viewfinder, interchangeable prisms, view finder masks for composing in different formats...Seriously. For what I want in a camera, they need to perfect the weaknesses in what they already have before adding megapixels. I want one body that is the most versatile camera around (not necessarily the best, mind you), and I want it to remain unchanged for at least 10 years.

I don't expect to get it, but does anyone else feel similarly?
« Last Edit: January 28, 2007, 01:10:53 AM by ASpeedGraphic » Logged
eronald
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« Reply #28 on: January 28, 2007, 03:02:55 AM »
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I don't expect to get it, but does anyone else feel similarly?
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Aspeedgraphic

 Yes, the journalists need a fast versatile camera rather than the best quality - but this is the MF forum where most of the guys have big resolution cameras with very fine file quality, and the rest of us try to make our pictures look as good as if we had

Edmund
« Last Edit: January 28, 2007, 03:03:27 AM by eronald » Logged

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« Reply #29 on: January 28, 2007, 09:41:04 AM »
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I don't see why we are hanging the messenger here, the guy saw a prototype 22mp canon, great, interesting news, why get so upset about it? With regard to the big people being elevated because they came from a time when photographers were regarded as artists i have to disagree, they are regarded as such because they are better, simple as that, and also what cameras they use is more important than what the rest of us use because they are better than us and are therefore in a better place to judge what is "better".
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« Reply #30 on: January 28, 2007, 09:54:23 AM »
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- but this is the MF forum where most of the guys have big resolution cameras with very fine file quality, and the rest of us try to make our pictures look as good as if we had

Edmund
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Edmund---loved that last phrase.  

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JTFOTO
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« Reply #31 on: January 28, 2007, 03:14:37 PM »
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To all the people ragging.  Well, i guess you need to let it out somewhere.

To the few that didn't mind my news. Thank you

I didn't get to hold the thing, I didn't get to shoot it either.  They were showing it with a 85/1.2 and a 50/1.2 but  they stated the lens couldn't resolve what their sensors were capable of.  this is why they are also considering a bit of bigger mount.  NOT MF! so don't start that crap.

Annie has been shooting Canon, Leaf, H1, Phase anything she wants.  As one of the guys here said that he has the shot before the camera comes to his eye.  EXACTLY!!

Is the viewfinder bigger in MF? SURE!  But only in the 33+ MP backs.  But a cropped MFDB on a MF and the image becomes darker and smaller.  But they are also so much slower!

I doubt Annie signed a damn thing for Canon other than a print.  No offense to some of the reps here.  But the majority of reps are the biggest geeks in the world that get so excited to be on a set.  I am sure they heard Annie was in town spoke to her rep and wanted to come by and show off a new piece.  I was about ten feet away during a break and noticed the camera and then from speaking to the other people on set learned about it.  Later in the day the rep befriended the Assistants and chatted us up as he could not go near the shooting or the set and Annie was busy with the celebrities and clients.  So he was looking for somene to geek out with.

It doesn't matter what I say because no one else will catch up with Canon.

Unless Nikon throws some kind of Hail Marry and make it.  They will still be second.

Annie likes the speed of the Canon and quality of the file.

As for her shows.  I don't think any Print from the shows or her books are digital.  This is all old film i.e. RZ, Mamiya 6, 7, Fuji 670 &  690.

And Yes,  I do admire her work and the work of many other shooters for the ney sayers.  That is why I got into this business.  For anyone ragging on me and living outside of NYC.  Come to NYC, LA, Paris, London, or Milan and try to make it and pay the bills.  Ahh, there is a rude awakening.  Enjoy the weddings, kid portraits, family portraits, pet portraits, Online dating portraits with your $1,000 rent for 3,000 sq ft.

Come try to compete in a major market.  Then let's see what you do.

Yes, I assist to pay the bills and I have been trying to leave it and have done so and able to survive.  I still get pick up work after the holidays and when i need cash.

Yes, it is an abbreviation name on my post.  I am not sure if Annie would be happy or not.  But I did this because of all the GEEKS out here and dreamers that want a bit of information on what to expect.  EXECUSE THE F*&K out of me.  YOUR WELCOME!

So I hope the IDIOTS who ragged on me go out and buy the New bestest greatest glass Canon has right now.  Then come November Canon scews you all and announces their newest bestest glass WITH A NEW MOUNT.  Take that.

So go spend your hard earned dollars and then take it in the @$$ when you have to sell it at a loss because it won't work with the new body that you want. (sorry Michael, one of the guys annoyed me)

I said I would give up my H1 because I don't like the speed or the lock of 100 asa.  If I need to let her rip, I want that ability.  If I want to comfortably shoot 400, I want that ability.

I would love the ability to have a small system to carry around that can do it all.  Canon Speed and flexibility, MF & Leica quality.  WHO DOESN'T?  If you don't, then go get your self an 8x10 and be my guest.

I just want to shoot and have that the easiest way possible. That use to mean a 645, a few lenses with NPH or NPZ and drop it at the lab.

Now it is computers, hard drives, processing software, freezes, etc..., etc..., etc...  

You're Welcome!
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« Reply #32 on: January 28, 2007, 04:00:03 PM »
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i don't see the problem with the post....we all know that the next canon will be 22mpix, and because the lenses pretty much suck now and canon needs to introduce a new line....nothing really new here and the fact that none of this will see the light of day really until 2008 is no surprise either....

i worked for a couple of years as a freelence assistant in NY for the big boys and girls and i also believe that the rep came by and shows a prototype....no real surprises there, happens all the time....

why a fifth assistant would have a H1/P25 and canon 1dsII is a little beyond me and why seeing the prototype of a camera one year away would all of a sudden de-value the P25 is even stranger....

we all know that terry richardson shoots throwaway point and shoots and does international campaings with them....we also know that the guy who prints the negs from the 10$ camera for the campaigns gets paid more then a DMFback costs...it is all about getting the look that sets you apart from the others....a P45 or A75 or DSMkIII or P&S..it does not matter....

i used to have canons and was never really happy with the files or the final prints....but then my files were never dropped off at the best digital retouch places, i haven't been so lucky to have these budgets....

the canons produce amazing files....hell, my SE cellphone shoots amazing 3.2mpix files that print very nicely up to 8x10.....i have seen editorials (fashion) shot with cellphones, the novelty is too hard to resist and is has a look and people go: ha! how clever! shot with a cellphone! so will i make a book with shots from my cellphone? no, not for me....i am very happy with the quality, the tones from my P30 and the prints i can make on my 4800....that is something i am proud to present and that's what matters....
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« Reply #33 on: January 28, 2007, 04:09:52 PM »
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To all the people ragging.  Well, i guess you need to let it out somewhere.

To the few that didn't mind my news. Thank you

I didn't get to hold the thing, I didn't get to shoot it either.  They were showing it with a 85/1.2 and a 50/1.2 but  they stated the lens couldn't resolve what their sensors were capable of.  this is why they are also considering a bit of bigger mount.  NOT MF! so don't start that crap.

Annie has been shooting Canon, Leaf, H1, Phase anything she wants.  As one of the guys here said that he has the shot before the camera comes to his eye.  EXACTLY!!

Is the viewfinder bigger in MF? SURE!  But only in the 33+ MP backs.  But a cropped MFDB on a MF and the image becomes darker and smaller.  But they are also so much slower!

I doubt Annie signed a damn thing for Canon other than a print.  No offense to some of the reps here.  But the majority of reps are the biggest geeks in the world that get so excited to be on a set.  I am sure they heard Annie was in town spoke to her rep and wanted to come by and show off a new piece.  I was about ten feet away during a break and noticed the camera and then from speaking to the other people on set learned about it.  Later in the day the rep befriended the Assistants and chatted us up as he could not go near the shooting or the set and Annie was busy with the celebrities and clients.  So he was looking for somene to geek out with.

It doesn't matter what I say because no one else will catch up with Canon.

Unless Nikon throws some kind of Hail Marry and make it.  They will still be second.

Annie likes the speed of the Canon and quality of the file.

As for her shows.  I don't think any Print from the shows or her books are digital.  This is all old film i.e. RZ, Mamiya 6, 7, Fuji 670 &  690.

And Yes,  I do admire her work and the work of many other shooters for the ney sayers.  That is why I got into this business.  For anyone ragging on me and living outside of NYC.  Come to NYC, LA, Paris, London, or Milan and try to make it and pay the bills.  Ahh, there is a rude awakening.  Enjoy the weddings, kid portraits, family portraits, pet portraits, Online dating portraits with your $1,000 rent for 3,000 sq ft.

Come try to compete in a major market.  Then let's see what you do.

Yes, I assist to pay the bills and I have been trying to leave it and have done so and able to survive.  I still get pick up work after the holidays and when i need cash.

Yes, it is an abbreviation name on my post.  I am not sure if Annie would be happy or not.  But I did this because of all the GEEKS out here and dreamers that want a bit of information on what to expect.  EXECUSE THE F*&K out of me.  YOUR WELCOME!

So I hope the IDIOTS who ragged on me go out and buy the New bestest greatest glass Canon has right now.  Then come November Canon scews you all and announces their newest bestest glass WITH A NEW MOUNT.  Take that.

So go spend your hard earned dollars and then take it in the @$$ when you have to sell it at a loss because it won't work with the new body that you want. (sorry Michael, one of the guys annoyed me)

I said I would give up my H1 because I don't like the speed or the lock of 100 asa.  If I need to let her rip, I want that ability.  If I want to comfortably shoot 400, I want that ability.

I would love the ability to have a small system to carry around that can do it all.  Canon Speed and flexibility, MF & Leica quality.  WHO DOESN'T?  If you don't, then go get your self an 8x10 and be my guest.

I just want to shoot and have that the easiest way possible. That use to mean a 645, a few lenses with NPH or NPZ and drop it at the lab.

Now it is computers, hard drives, processing software, freezes, etc..., etc..., etc...  

You're Welcome!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=97966\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


1000$ for 3000sqft? i guess you mean 1500$ for 400sqft...at least that's what i paid for my first appartment in chelsea...and this was in the early 90s...can't imagine it got cheaper...

i now shoot mamiya 645 afdII with P30, hopefully P30+ soon....about the same weight as canon, af is a little slower, but fast enough for fashion, finder is way bigger, lenses are a lot cheaper and actually a lot better....the P+ will shoot 1600asa at almost 1frame/sec....16bit, 31mpix....it will be really hard for canon to convince me to go to 22mpix, pay 2000$ per lens just so i can get fast AF with 2 frames/sec (which my flashes don't support anyway and i would not shoot anyway either)....IF this camera is even 16bit....AND phase completely stops all development for the next year....

i don't doubt what you saw at all, again nothing really surprising, but nothing to get excited about ..for me...
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eronald
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« Reply #34 on: January 28, 2007, 04:56:07 PM »
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A lot of what the guy says makes sense - but no surprises.

And anyone in this forum knows how to use a point and shoot to effect - although we"re equipment geeks, I think none of us is *forced* to be that except the sports/action guys an they're not *here*.

Edmund

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i don't doubt what you saw at all, again nothing really surprising, but nothing to get excited about ..for me...
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Edmund Ronald, Ph.D. 
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« Reply #35 on: January 28, 2007, 05:09:07 PM »
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They were showing it with a 85/1.2 and a 50/1.2 but  they stated the lens couldn't resolve what their sensors were capable of.  this is why they are also considering a bit of bigger mount. [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=97966\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
not that I wish to fan these flames, but this makes little sense.
a lens that has higher resolution doesn't need a bigger mount. it needs better quality control, using the latest optical designs and manufacturing procedures, glass etc. it isn't about the size of the mount at all.
excuse me if I am misunderstanding what you are saying otherwise.

personally I still do think Canon will bring out an MF camera.
it must gall them so much that their own press shots of 1Ds2 and 1D2 are made on a Phase One MF back.
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savagegibson
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« Reply #36 on: January 28, 2007, 05:27:39 PM »
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Is it possible that people are reacting negatively more to your attitude than the information in your post? If someone spoke to you in the tone you posted here, would you react positively to that?

Quote
To all the people ragging.  Well, i guess you need to let it out somewhere.

To the few that didn't mind my news. Thank you

I didn't get to hold the thing, I didn't get to shoot it either.  They were showing it with a 85/1.2 and a 50/1.2 but  they stated the lens couldn't resolve what their sensors were capable of.  this is why they are also considering a bit of bigger mount.  NOT MF! so don't start that crap.

Annie has been shooting Canon, Leaf, H1, Phase anything she wants.  As one of the guys here said that he has the shot before the camera comes to his eye.  EXACTLY!!

Is the viewfinder bigger in MF? SURE!  But only in the 33+ MP backs.  But a cropped MFDB on a MF and the image becomes darker and smaller.  But they are also so much slower!

I doubt Annie signed a damn thing for Canon other than a print.  No offense to some of the reps here.  But the majority of reps are the biggest geeks in the world that get so excited to be on a set.  I am sure they heard Annie was in town spoke to her rep and wanted to come by and show off a new piece.  I was about ten feet away during a break and noticed the camera and then from speaking to the other people on set learned about it.  Later in the day the rep befriended the Assistants and chatted us up as he could not go near the shooting or the set and Annie was busy with the celebrities and clients.  So he was looking for somene to geek out with.

It doesn't matter what I say because no one else will catch up with Canon.

Unless Nikon throws some kind of Hail Marry and make it.  They will still be second.

Annie likes the speed of the Canon and quality of the file.

As for her shows.  I don't think any Print from the shows or her books are digital.  This is all old film i.e. RZ, Mamiya 6, 7, Fuji 670 &  690.

And Yes,  I do admire her work and the work of many other shooters for the ney sayers.  That is why I got into this business.  For anyone ragging on me and living outside of NYC.  Come to NYC, LA, Paris, London, or Milan and try to make it and pay the bills.  Ahh, there is a rude awakening.  Enjoy the weddings, kid portraits, family portraits, pet portraits, Online dating portraits with your $1,000 rent for 3,000 sq ft.

Come try to compete in a major market.  Then let's see what you do.

Yes, I assist to pay the bills and I have been trying to leave it and have done so and able to survive.  I still get pick up work after the holidays and when i need cash.

Yes, it is an abbreviation name on my post.  I am not sure if Annie would be happy or not.  But I did this because of all the GEEKS out here and dreamers that want a bit of information on what to expect.  EXECUSE THE F*&K out of me.  YOUR WELCOME!

So I hope the IDIOTS who ragged on me go out and buy the New bestest greatest glass Canon has right now.  Then come November Canon scews you all and announces their newest bestest glass WITH A NEW MOUNT.  Take that.

So go spend your hard earned dollars and then take it in the @$$ when you have to sell it at a loss because it won't work with the new body that you want. (sorry Michael, one of the guys annoyed me)

I said I would give up my H1 because I don't like the speed or the lock of 100 asa.  If I need to let her rip, I want that ability.  If I want to comfortably shoot 400, I want that ability.

I would love the ability to have a small system to carry around that can do it all.  Canon Speed and flexibility, MF & Leica quality.  WHO DOESN'T?  If you don't, then go get your self an 8x10 and be my guest.

I just want to shoot and have that the easiest way possible. That use to mean a 645, a few lenses with NPH or NPZ and drop it at the lab.

Now it is computers, hard drives, processing software, freezes, etc..., etc..., etc...  

You're Welcome!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=97966\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
« Last Edit: January 28, 2007, 05:29:16 PM by savagegibson » Logged
Robin Casady
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« Reply #37 on: January 28, 2007, 05:34:24 PM »
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To all the people ragging.  Well, i guess you need to let it out somewhere.
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What kind of a response did you expect?

You make your first post in a medium format digital forum with rumors about a Canon DSLR. Besides being off topic, that is a classic thing for a troll to do. Perhaps you aren't familiar with forums and trolls, but telling people that their $30,000+ investments in MDF is (or soon will be) superfluous wont make you a lot of new friends.

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It doesn't matter what I say because no one else will catch up with Canon.
You think one kind of camera fits the needs and preferences of all photographers? I don't find Canons appealing at all. Because of the poor corner quality with wide lenses, and the ergonomics I prefer a Nikon D2x to the Canon EOS-1Ds Mark II, but that's just my preference. A portrait or fashion photographer may not care about the corners and my not use using wide lenses much.

You need to look at the context of your posts if you are surprised by the response you get. Would you go onto a Ferrari forum, and in your first post, tell them that a new Porsche will be better than any Ferrari?

Regards,
Robin Casady
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« Reply #38 on: January 28, 2007, 05:42:17 PM »
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To all the people ragging.  Well, i guess you need to let it out somewhere.

You called it a demo body and it clearly isn't a demo. A prototype at best. If you get your facts wrong, people will get annoyed.

Quote
To the few that didn't mind my news. Thank you

It isn't news that Canon was working on a 22MP body. It's been discussed for the past year.

Quote
Is the viewfinder bigger in MF? SURE!  But only in the 33+ MP backs.

Wrong! For start the backs have no viewfinder. If you mean the cropped area of the viewfinder corresponding to the image area of the sensor, then you are still wrong. 16MP, 18MP, 22MP, 31MP, 33MP and 39MP sensors are all bigger than 35mm full frame. The exact size of the view will depend on the camera's optics' magnification factor.

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But a cropped MFDB on a MF and the image becomes darker and smaller.  But they are also so much slower!

Do you mean 'put'? What's a cropped MFDB? Do you mean a MFDB of less than 645 sensor dimensions? What becomes darker? What is slower? This is one seriously confused post.

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It doesn't matter what I say because no one else will catch up with Canon.

Catch up in what race? The Leica DMR even has the Canon flagship licked when it comes to 35mm DSLR IQ. All modern MFDBs beat Canon by a significant margin in IQ. Several cameras beat Canon's flash sync speed. Canon has some catching up to do of it's own. Even Pentax's K10D outperforms Canon's cameras in the same class. Be more specific. Canon only holds a lead in some specific conditions.

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Annie likes the speed of the Canon and quality of the file.

But still uses other cameras by choice. What a non-comment.

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You're Welcome!

After that outburst and bad language, please don't come back.
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Graham Mitchell - www.graham-mitchell.com
alexjones
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« Reply #39 on: January 28, 2007, 05:47:56 PM »
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Wheater or not the camera exists is up for grabs and Canon is not saying.  I am shocked at the lack of professionalism by an assistant who works on a shoot with possibly some ground breaking camera with any photographer and then talks about it.  I would never hire nor recommend someone who does that.  What happens on the shoot stays on the shoot, period!

a
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