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Author Topic: z3100 gloss differential  (Read 4050 times)
dkeyes
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« on: January 29, 2007, 12:31:45 AM »
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Are the Vivera inks semi-gloss? They don't seem to match the gloss of the papers I have used. I've tried all three combinations of gloss, no gloss, "econo gloss" modes on both Epson Premium Gloss and HP Premium Gloss papers. I keep seeing glossy highlights (glossier than rest of print). This is due to the fact that less ink is in this area and the paper is affecting that area more. Compared to my Epson 9800 prints (using same image) which have no gloss differential in same areas (as long as there is ink).

I thought this was one of the benefits of this printer, not drawbacks as I'm experiencing.

Anyone have similar problems?

By the way, I've profiled each paper and calibrated printer before each profile and print.
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dkeyes
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« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2007, 03:10:58 AM »
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UPDATE:
So I've been working on ways to get my prints to have the same gloss as the paper. The z3100 gloss is somewhat satin/semi-gloss in appearance. So it makes pearl/satin papers look glossier and glossy papers look more satin. (HP tried to split the difference I guess) This makes the gloss differential non-existent for the most part on pearl/satin papers but still leaves some gloss differential on my glossy prints (HP and Epson premium gloss papers). Here is what I've done to get rid of this:

I load my print (already printed with full gloss mode) in the printer. I create a new Photoshop file with the same paper size set-up and fill the page with 255, 255, 254. In essence this applies no ink (that I can perceive) but allows me to do a full gloss coat over an existing print. Yes, a double hit of gloss ink.

Here are the results on different papers using the standard test file (strawberries, color charts, etc), with latest firmware update using standard HP driver:

Hahnemuele Fine Art Pearl- Makes the print much glossier and smooths out all the ink coverage. Adds depth to blacks and shadows and also makes colors richer. Looks great if you don't mind the extra gloss. Best gamut I've ever seen on this sheet.

Epson Premium Gloss- Enhanced some midtones/shadows and actually added some gloss differential in different areas. Other areas absorbed the gloss unevenly. Bottom line, didn't help overall print and might have made it worse.

HP Premium ID Gloss- Enhanced all shadows/midtones and added gloss in those areas. The overall image matches the gloss of the paper exactly. Colors look richer and blacks darker. No gloss differential. First print I've made that actually looks better than my Epson 9800 prints done with Ergosoft rip (printed by Tyler Boley). Tyler is a great printer by the way if you ever need printing.

Until a new rip comes out or the driver/firmware fixes this, I will probably make this my working method. It's an extra step but the prints look great.

- Doug
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2007, 03:24:48 AM »
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Hi Doug,

Thanks for the report, it seems interesting.

One question though, aren't you concerned by the potential impact on the life expectancy of your prints? I mean, my understanding was that the gloss enhancer was designed to be layed on paper, and not on top of other inks, right?

Regards,
Bernard
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kers
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« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2007, 04:07:26 AM »
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I load my print (already printed with full gloss mode) in the printer. I create a new Photoshop file with the same paper size set-up and fill the page with 255, 255, 254. In essence this applies no ink (that I can perceive) but allows me to do a full gloss coat over an existing print. Yes, a double hit of gloss ink.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=106742\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Hello Doug, I agree with you that the 'gloss differential' is only limited on some papers - ( HP premium  ID satin as best)

Your method is the one I also used for some papers ( ilford smooth pearl) but I got rollermarks. You don't have this problem?

When adding the extra gloss layer I noticed you have tot add it immediately after the first print, otherwise the effect does not occur. But as a side effect the rollermarks appeared.

Pieter
« Last Edit: March 16, 2007, 04:08:05 AM by kers » Logged

Pieter Kers
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dkeyes
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« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2007, 01:22:11 PM »
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Hello Doug, I agree with you that the 'gloss differential' is only limited on some papers - ( HP premium  ID satin as best)

Your method is the one I also used for some papers ( ilford smooth pearl) but I got rollermarks. You don't have this problem?

When adding the extra gloss layer I noticed you have tot add it immediately after the first print, otherwise the effect does not occur. But as a side effect the rollermarks appeared.

Pieter
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Pieter,
I tried both prints I had just completed that day and prints I had done two weeks ago. Same result and no roller marks. I haven't tried a large print yet, these were 13x19 and 20x24" approx. I've never had roller marks on any paper except Hahnemuele Fine Art Pearl. And that was only one time.

Don't know the affect this process would have on longevity. I assume the first pass when I print with gloss, is integrated into the ink and not put on before or after the ink is layed down. So, the second pass is definitely on top of the ink. I can't imagine it would make the ink less stable. If anything it might help since it may keep environmental conditions from affecting the print surface (much like lamination does).

I have yet to find a glossy paper that doesn't show signs of gloss differential without doing this process. (I've only tried the HP Prem. ID gloss and Epson Prem. Gloss)

Any luck with other gloss papers?
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neil snape
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« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2007, 03:58:31 AM »
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I think you've tried all the possibilities and correctly noted your findings.

The Gloss Enhance is not as shiny as the surface such as Pictorico. It does slightly dull the surface of glossy. And yes the Vivera pigments are not a "shiny" as Epson K3.
You should however have less gloss differential in highlights than Epson on glossy media.
I have said before, there is still some bronzing in shadows, however it is really very slight. It is in fact the lGrey that causes this but the algorithm for GE is very well done and reduces this problem to a bare minimum, and does things like reduce bronzing throughout all ranges.

The GE is a transparent polymer that has the same characteristics as the pigments themselves so no problems with durability that I'm aware of.

I don't think that the algorithms would be hand done by any third parties, as they are extremely complex, and I seriously doubt that they could be improved on.
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TylerB
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« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2007, 04:26:29 PM »
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Hi Doug, thanks for your comments, and congratulations on the new printer. I've seen a lot of output now and am impressed with the HPs. During a gathering at PMA, my friend Amadou Diallo managed to connect the top level people from both HP and Ergosoft, so perhaps there will be some kind of mutual effort there soon.
More to the point- while testing the new (and VERY impressive, and expensive) photo papers from Innova, and working on some files from a mutual friend of ours, I came up against differential problems yet again. These papers looked problem free until these files. Turns out there are certain ink combinations that are problematic, certain colors, light inks, dot sizes, GCR, etc..
Needless to say I've nearly gone broke through paper and ink trying to nail this down and it's gotten very interesting.
I think I've nearly got it solved in the shadows, and deep colors to K transitions. This is for Ultrachrome K3s of course, that's what I have to work with.
Highlights to paper base transitions are another thing, I think it's a paper issue myself. Anyway, this has been very interesting, and maddening of course, but I've been amazed to find there are ways to make things better.
Tyler
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dkeyes
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« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2007, 05:19:45 PM »
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Hi Doug, thanks for your comments, and congratulations on the new printer. I've seen a lot of output now and am impressed with the HPs. During a gathering at PMA, my friend Amadou Diallo managed to connect the top level people from both HP and Ergosoft, so perhaps there will be some kind of mutual effort there soon.
More to the point- while testing the new (and VERY impressive, and expensive) photo papers from Innova, and working on some files from a mutual friend of ours, I came up against differential problems yet again. These papers looked problem free until these files. Turns out there are certain ink combinations that are problematic, certain colors, light inks, dot sizes, GCR, etc..
Needless to say I've nearly gone broke through paper and ink trying to nail this down and it's gotten very interesting.
I think I've nearly got it solved in the shadows, and deep colors to K transitions. This is for Ultrachrome K3s of course, that's what I have to work with.
Highlights to paper base transitions are another thing, I think it's a paper issue myself. Anyway, this has been very interesting, and maddening of course, but I've been amazed to find there are ways to make things better.
Tyler
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Tyler, I'm amazed that the mature/old technology from Epson k3 inks in combination with a great printer such as yourself and the right paper/rip combination is hard to beat. It will be interesting to see how the rips improve on the HP printers. Of course all the issues we are talking about are unnoticeable to the untrained eye. I've been selling prints from both Epson and HP printers and never had a client/museum/gallery owner have an issue with the quality of the images. We are just trying to get that last 5% out of these machines.
-Doug
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TylerB
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« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2007, 03:43:30 PM »
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Tyler, I'm amazed that the mature/old technology from Epson k3 inks in combination with a great printer such as yourself and the right paper/rip combination is hard to beat. It will be interesting to see how the rips improve on the HP printers. Of course all the issues we are talking about are unnoticeable to the untrained eye. I've been selling prints from both Epson and HP printers and never had a client/museum/gallery owner have an issue with the quality of the images. We are just trying to get that last 5% out of these machines.
-Doug
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It's that last 5% that matters though, as you know. Then of course the next new "last" 5% rears it's head.
Spoke too soon, haven't got it nailed down yet, illusive. May have to seek government funding...
Anyway, mature technology can get stuck, and it's hard for big business to abandon commitments. I'm happy to see the intense activity HP is putting into all of this, it can only help all of us. They seem to be interacting with a lot of artists for feedback.
By the way, that printer of yours makes dandy quads on PhotoRag, right out of the box.
I saw some laminating experiments from friends at K3Press from Austin at the PMA gathering. It was the nicest "photo" surface I've yet seen, but of course we'd all prefer our prints to emerge from the printer ready to go.
Tyler
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