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Author Topic: Designjet 130 and Printfix Pro  (Read 22869 times)
digitaldog
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« Reply #40 on: March 23, 2007, 11:08:11 AM »
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I don't know what to say about this.

I'm not here to fight with anyone. I saw a few posts, said a few simple things, and I'm not the one who's using words or making statements like:

Why would anyone like me (who develops color management software) want to come into a forum like this and be greeted by this kind of response?

Andrew, I worked for several years at Integrated Color Solutions as one of the primary developers on all of their basICColor software product line and also on portions of their Remote Director ...[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=108263\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Great then maybe you can answer the questions addressed to Jack in the series of posts "Losing sleep over monitor calibration" as well as those I posted above.

I'm not here to fight but I am here to ask for clarity on what appears to be mainly marketing speak. If its not and you have technical answers to dismiss this, I'm all ears.

If the questions are nonsense, you may want to explain why to those lurking here (and me). I'm not asking you to explain the origins of life or debating religion. The questions IMHO are valid and remain unanswered.

What's raw data mean in the context of what these devices are producing? Are you capturing spectral data and if not, what's the rational behind the naming of your device? What matrix did you use to express the idea that users don't need the capabilities of captured spectral data.  What's an accurate profile mean etc.

What about the question Enrst asked?
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Andrew Rodney
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Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #41 on: March 23, 2007, 11:42:34 AM »
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If anyone would like to have a reasonable discourse about any of this, then I'd be willing to continue, but with all due respect, this is a bunch of nonsense and I'm not going to get into a war of words with you over it.
David Miller
Senior Software Developer, Digital Color Solutions
ColorVision
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Well the issues I raised (earlier and later in this thread) were phrased reasonably but have not been answered and you seemed the one to have the answers on that. However typing: - Datacolor narrow band LEDs - in Google brought me to a thread on DPreview:
[a href=\"http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1003&message=21501325]http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp...essage=21501325[/url]
that gave me my answers and they didn't come from you there either.

Ernst Dinkla

try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/
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BCRider
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« Reply #42 on: March 23, 2007, 12:32:09 PM »
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...If anyone would like to have a reasonable discourse about any of this, then I'd be willing to continue...
David Miller
Senior Software Developer, Digital Color Solutions
ColorVision
Well I'm not interested in name calling...just the facts honestly reported...please continue in that vein.

It seems to me people are most concerned about your hardware device being able to provide accurate values to the profiling software.  You assert it is as good as a real spectro...I can find accuracy specs for the spectros but none for your device.  Do you have an accuracy spec?  If so, what is it?
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digitaldog
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« Reply #43 on: March 23, 2007, 01:17:58 PM »
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However typing: - Datacolor narrow band LEDs - in Google brought me to a thread on DPreview:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp...essage=21501325
that gave me my answers and they didn't come from you there either.

Yup, an interesting series of posts where once again, we hear claims of 'accuracy' which reared its ugly head on the recent posts about display calibration. That term is really overused and never properly defined.

In the DP post we see this:

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> The comparison charts for the products show that the values coming
> from the spectrocolorimeter are just as applicable for building
> high quality profiles as the values coming from the
> spectrophotometer.

No, it doesn't. I've already explained the issue of accuracy to you.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp...essage=21426454

So its nice to see Joe make the call (again) to a color management vendor to define what they are talking about (and once again, to see this go unanswered).

Is this an example of 'cut and run' I read about?
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Andrew Rodney
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Greg_E
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« Reply #44 on: March 23, 2007, 02:49:42 PM »
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http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp...essage=21426454

Ernst, maybe this helps too?
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Greg_E
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« Reply #45 on: March 23, 2007, 02:57:57 PM »
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http://www.aviantechnologies.com/products/...eflect.html#FTS

Almost getting down into the realm where mere mortals might tread.

Might be nice to have a set of these once in a while when this type of discussion comes up:
http://www.aviantechnologies.com/products/...lect.html#ceram

Anyone want to donate to the effort?
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dmiller
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« Reply #46 on: March 24, 2007, 07:54:04 AM »
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Yup, an interesting series of posts where once again, we hear claims of 'accuracy' which reared its ugly head on the recent posts about display calibration. That term is really overused and never properly defined.

In the DP post we see this:
So its nice to see Joe make the call (again) to a color management vendor to define what they are talking about (and once again, to see this go unanswered).

Is this an example of 'cut and run' I read about?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=108314\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

"reared ugly head"? "Cut and run"?

Maybe it hasn't occurred to you that I'm actually doing development work on a product and that I didn't have a chance to get back in here to look for the continuing thread, until this morning.

If you really think this is the appropriate way to write or discuss color management, in what's supposed to be a friendly forum, then there's no place for me here, and I certainly don't feel welcome to comment on any of this, in the areas where it would be appropriate for me to comment.

Sorry to have intruded. I'm not cutting and running; but I am leaving.


David Miller
Senior Software Developer, Digital Color Solutions
ColorVision
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dmiller
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« Reply #47 on: March 24, 2007, 07:57:26 AM »
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Well the issues I raised (earlier and later in this thread) were phrased reasonably but have not been answered and you seemed the one to have the answers on that. However typing: - Datacolor narrow band LEDs - in Google brought me to a thread on DPreview:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp...essage=21501325
that gave me my answers and they didn't come from you there either.

Ernst Dinkla

try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=108276\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Ernst,

I wouldn't have been the right person to answer hardware specific questions about the spectro. I work solely on the software/profiling end of things, not in any areas that are related to the internals of the spectro itself (this is the Datacolor 1005 spectrocolorimeter I'm talking about, of course).

Best regards,

David Miller
Senior Software Developer, Digital Color Solutions
ColorVision
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dmiller
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« Reply #48 on: March 24, 2007, 08:12:02 AM »
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Well I'm not interested in name calling...just the facts honestly reported...please continue in that vein.

It seems to me people are most concerned about your hardware device being able to provide accurate values to the profiling software.  You assert it is as good as a real spectro...I can find accuracy specs for the spectros but none for your device.  Do you have an accuracy spec?  If so, what is it?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=108286\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thanks, I'd like to, but there's such a negative sentiment here from other quarters that it makes it impossible to continue.

The only spec I'm aware of is the one that's been previously published and referred to, and which is at the bottom of the Northlight Images review and which is probably also somewhere on the ColorVision web site.

If the Datacolor 1005 spectrocolorimeter wasn't providing suitably accurate Lab values for building printer profiles, then the PrintFIX PRO package wouldn't have finished in the top 3 of the profilers, whether some people like that; or not. The results are there; if someone would like to do more extensive testing and comparisons with other test images, great!  

If anyone has any additional questions about PrintFIX PRO, please direct them to me at davem@colorvision.com and I'll do my best to answer them privately via email.

Best regards,

David Miller
Senior Software Developer, Digital Color Solutions
ColorVision
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digitaldog
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« Reply #49 on: March 24, 2007, 10:11:50 AM »
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Thanks, I'd like to, but there's such a negative sentiment here from other quarters that it makes it impossible to continue.

Impossible? Interesting. We didn't get the answers over on DP Review, I guess I shouldn't have expected it here.

The question Ernst asked was perfectly appropriate and polite but you're going to ignore it?

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If the Datacolor 1005 spectrocolorimeter wasn't providing suitably accurate Lab values for building printer profiles, then the PrintFIX PRO package wouldn't have finished in the top 3 of the profilers, whether some people like that; or not. The results are there; if someone would like to do more extensive testing and comparisons with other test images, great! 

I don't recall anyone claiming they were not 'accurate' although in the context here, it's meaningless since we can't get any real data from you. But what about the other questions from Ernst and me (do you capture spectral data? Why is Spectro used in the name if not?).

Sorry if you think we are (I am) personally picking on you but you came here to discuss the review and you're the representative from the company. Its not fair for us to ask you for specific, pertinent technical questions and expect answers or we should just let them pass by as we've seen elsewhere and just gloat about the article? Set the record straight and answer the questions. Now you really are cutting and running.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2007, 10:12:34 AM by digitaldog » Logged

Andrew Rodney
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« Reply #50 on: March 24, 2007, 11:02:43 AM »
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In the spirit of goodwill in these trying times, cut David some slack . He did state he's a software developer, you guys are asking mostly hardware related stuff. We can always fast-forward through the marketing speak, but we may get some other useful info too.

Also I tend to agree with him about the target audience not being that interested in raw data. I think a lot of people don't want to get to that level of sophistication, me included. I want to get a nice profile as painlessly as possible, and quite frankly I found the software well designed in this aspect. Remember, he doesn't define the product, the marketing people do. It's mostly out of his hands. Plus every additional level of functionality can add significantly to the development, testing and production costs, and Colorvision like most corporations is out there to make money for the stockholders, although hopefully providing a useful product to ensure this.

Also remember he's here as a representative of his company, which places constraints on what he says and how, and the fact he'd like to keep his job. Frankly I admired his courage for even participating in the discussion, especially after seeing the shall we say tough audience he's facing .

Just another perspective ...

Having said that, I'm having a hard time getting a proper profile using PFP 2.0 for my iPF5000 through the standard Windows driver (not through Photoshop) and maybe he can help me out . I guess I should start another appropriately named thread ...
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« Reply #51 on: March 24, 2007, 12:15:26 PM »
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In the spirit of goodwill in these trying times, cut David some slack . He did state he's a software developer, you guys are asking mostly hardware related stuff. We can always fast-forward through the marketing speak, but we may get some other useful info too.

OK maybe he can get some info about the hardware then although I suspect many of the questions asked (does it capture spectral data) would be known to someone who's handling the software.

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Also I tend to agree with him about the target audience not being that interested in raw data.

I have no idea what he's speaking about when he says raw data. I asked for clarification but that's not happened.

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Also remember he's here as a representative of his company, which places constraints on what he says and how, and the fact he'd like to keep his job.


If we're asking anything that is limited by an NDA or is proprietary info, he just has to say so. We know the device ends up providing LAB values, he's said so. What's it measuring to get that? Is it or isn't it a Spectrophotometer or to put it another way, is it gathering spectral data? The name, perhaps the marketing folks have used for the instrument kind of, sort of, gives that impression but no one at CV that I know of have said so one way or the other.
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Andrew Rodney
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« Reply #52 on: March 24, 2007, 02:40:31 PM »
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...He did state he's a software developer, you guys are asking mostly hardware related stuff.

I asked my question because David said the hardware provided input data to the software that was comparable to a real spectro in accuracy.   I'm trying to understand what he means by that, although it seems it is really just marketing speak in the end.

The white paper from the original designer demonstrated an 8 band device and managed about 5 dE accuracy.   The current Colorvision hardware is a 6 band device which increases the error.   Is 5 dE accuracy (and it may be worse) good enough?  Probably for most people it is OK...especially if the software is well written in terms of producing profiles that avoid "bad behaviour" whilst perhaps not being able to produce the "best behaviour".  However these error levels probably aren't good enough for critical use.

The absence of accuracy specs (while including other specs) is telling.  Understandable however since the hardware *is* more limited and can't compete in that area with a real spectro.   But in that regard I think the concerns over its name and the fact it doesn't produce real spectral data is a bit overdone.  It is clearly inbetween a scanner and a real spectro so having an inbetween name isn't so bad.  And lacking real spectro data only matters if the competition is making better profiles with their spectral data...and that hasn't been shown one way or the other as far as I can see.

In the end, I think it is an interesting package and would like to try it.  Who knows, it might be good enough for me.  I also never liked the way EyeOne upsells their software just to get full functionality inkjet profiling.  But alas, the local stores simply won't allow returns.  So it remains a theoretical exercise.

PS.  At the risk of writing a book...someone who has both PFP and a real spectro should scan some targets and post the dE differences in the resulting Lab values.  That way we can actually add some further facts to this discussion rather than churning through the same old tired ones.
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digitaldog
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« Reply #53 on: March 24, 2007, 02:55:25 PM »
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I asked my question because David said the hardware provided input data to the software that was comparable to a real spectro in accuracy.   I'm trying to understand what he means by that, although it seems it is really just marketing speak in the end.

Exactly. He brought up the subject.

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The absence of accuracy specs (while including other specs) is telling.  Understandable however since the hardware *is* more limited and can't compete in that area with a real spectro.   But in that regard I think the concerns over its name and the fact it doesn't produce real spectral data is a bit overdone.  It is clearly inbetween a scanner and a real spectro so having an inbetween name isn't so bad.  And lacking real spectro data only matters if the competition is making better profiles with their spectral data...and that hasn't been shown one way or the other as far as I can see.

I'd agree, its a bit overdone (on my part). But some clarity from the manufacturer would go a long way in putting this to rest.

As for the competition, they (GretagMacbeth) does use spectral data for among other functionally, handling optical brighteners and providing compensation as the profile is built along with custom illuminant support in building the profiles.

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In the end, I think it is an interesting package and would like to try it.  Who knows, it might be good enough for me.  I also never liked the way EyeOne upsells their software just to get full functionality inkjet profiling.


Way, way too many flavors and options that's confusing to just about anyone looking at their solutions. There should be one flavor of Match and then you move up into ProfileMaker Pro. End users and potential customers need to hammer this home and maybe X-Rite will do something about it.

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PS.  At the risk of writing a book...someone who has both PFP and a real spectro should scan some targets and post the dE differences in the resulting Lab values.  That way we can actually add some further facts to this discussion rather than churning through the same old tired ones.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=108475\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

That would be useful. I'm afraid I can't assist, I don't have the hardware either.
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Andrew Rodney
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« Reply #54 on: March 25, 2007, 10:49:31 PM »
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If I had the datacolor 1005 a comparison between it and one of my spectros would have been the first thing that I did. But I don't, and probably never will.
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