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Author Topic: HP Z3100  (Read 49049 times)
kers
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« Reply #20 on: February 04, 2007, 09:02:40 AM »
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Hello mjgakatr and all other readers to this z3100 forum,

I am working out a page on my website that will be dedicated to the z3100.
It will contain data off all papers used . ( ICC profiles and personal comments)

So Please send your data and Icc Profiles tot this email:   z3100@beeld.nu
The page will be online in about a week and the adress will be

 www.beeld.nu/z3100

In this way it will be easier to choose a paper and compare the icc profiles.


regards,

Pieter kers
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« Reply #21 on: February 04, 2007, 09:07:36 PM »
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All - I've written a new review article of the Z3100 which has been published by Rangefinder magazine. Please use the following link:

http://www.bigfolio3.com/print-archives/19...designjet-z3100

David Saffir
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Colorwave
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« Reply #22 on: February 04, 2007, 11:59:11 PM »
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Thanks for the review, David.  Have you, or anybody else on this thread tried this printer with a third party RIP yet?  Asside from additional page output options, think it is necessary for getting quality fine art prints out of this machine?

Thanks,
Ron
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DSaffir
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« Reply #23 on: February 05, 2007, 12:13:26 AM »
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i'm expecting a new version of imageprint for the z3100 soon.

given the built-in color profiling, the z3100 does a darned good job from the printer driver. we shall see what happens when i get the rip....

David
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ricgal
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« Reply #24 on: February 05, 2007, 02:46:27 AM »
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I have ordered the GP upgrade to get higher quality profiles from the built in spectro-  wondering if i would have been better spending the exta money on a full set of carts-  I shall relate when it turns up.
Very useful review-   thanks-  particuarly paper experiences
I am having trouble with HP Universal ID gloss
surface is really glossy with GE but I am getting the odd head strike-  i think it is too light weight and is cockling slightly-  I am trying on thick paper setting to see what happens

the HP pro stin is a fantastic paper-  really high gamut and great feel-  matches the ID Premium Gloss gamut exactly when viewed in Gamutworks
« Last Edit: February 05, 2007, 02:49:18 AM by ricgal » Logged

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chris anderson
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« Reply #25 on: February 05, 2007, 11:17:21 AM »
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Mr Saffir,

Have you had any problems with head strikes?
                  Chris
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DSaffir
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« Reply #26 on: February 05, 2007, 12:39:02 PM »
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only when i fall down

seriously, none at all w/ this printer.

David
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chris anderson
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« Reply #27 on: February 05, 2007, 12:40:31 PM »
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Mr. Saffir,
   How do yu feel it compares to the epson and canon as far as print quality only??
 THANKS!!
 Chris
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Christopher
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« Reply #28 on: February 05, 2007, 02:38:59 PM »
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Mr. Saffir,
   How do yu feel it compares to the epson and canon as far as print quality only??
 THANKS!!
 Chris
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99317\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Now you didn't ask me :-P, but I nevertheless I will comment on it.

I can only compar it to the Eposn R2400 ( Because to the Epson 4000 wouldn't be fair), I think it produces better results. In some area more gamut in other a little less. Details are excellent and on the 1200dpi it is better than the output of my R2400.

Now One great thing is the GE. Glossy prints really make a diffrence ! This said I also prefer the prints on the HM Photo Rag from the Z3100.

Christopher
« Last Edit: February 05, 2007, 02:43:55 PM by Christopher » Logged

chris anderson
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« Reply #29 on: February 05, 2007, 02:45:14 PM »
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Now you didn't ask me :-P, but I nevertheless I will comment on it.

I can only compar it to the Eposn R2400 ( Because to the Epson 4000 wouldn't be fair), I think it produces better results. In some area more gamut in other a little less. Details are excellent and on the 1200dpi it is better than the output of my R2400.

Now One great thing is the GE. Glossy prints really make a diffrence ! This said I also prefer the prints on the HM Photo Rag from the Z3100.

Christopher
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99327\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


sorry! I am asking you now!!
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tbonanno
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« Reply #30 on: February 05, 2007, 06:51:51 PM »
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sorry! I am asking you now!!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99330\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hi Chris, you didn't ask me either, but...

I have the iPF5000, an Epson 3800 in studio and use to have 4000's.  I have also looked at the Z3100 closely hands on and examined a number of prints from the Z2100 and Z3100.

I would strongly suggest you take a look for yourself at a dealer or show where you can seriously examine all three manufacturer's output.

If you print WITHOUT the gloss enhancer, I think you will find the output VERY similar.  The HP has some bronzing and gloss differential just as the Epson and Canon does on luster/glossy papers.  The GE with the Z3100 makes those issues moot of course.  

AS far as other quality parameters, features, and functions, they all have their strengths and weaknesses.. For example, the HP would never work for me as I need to print "quantity" cut sheet and I'm not about to feed the paper one sheet at a time at the back of the Z series.  And I certainly don't have time as a working photog to gang them all on roll paper and cut them out with a paper cutter.. Geesh !  I really need the cassette on the iPF5000.  The Epson 3800 won't work for my large panoramas because it can't take roll paper.  On the other hand, the 3800 is my ideal "small cut sheet" printer as it will take cut sheets down to 4x6, something that NONE of the other 17" printers will do (that's why I have both the iPF5000 and the 3800 in the studio).  

The HP Z series of course are larger format (24" and 44") and I was looking at the Z3100 as a ideal 24" printer, but ideally I want a 24 inch printer that would "replace" the iPF5000, but the klugy cut sheet handling on the Z series eliminated that possibility (I think).

Right now, based on the tests that I've run, I do believe the 12 color inkset (11 + GE in the HP) does make a difference assuming you have custom profiles, a wide gamut colorspace file, and suitable subject matter.  In a not very well controlled test (generic profiles rather than custom), I circulated two 13x19 color prints made from a 16 bit RAW file in ProPhotoRGB, one printed on a new Epson 3800 and one printed on the iPF5000 to 100 photographers in the audience of a program I recently presented.  Both prints were gorgeous.  I labeled them and A & B and asked the audience to make a note as to which they preferred (they didn't know which printer was used).  98 out of 100 preferred the Canon print.  I suspect this was mostly a reflection of the inkset.  I suspect the HP would be similar to the Canon in this type of comparison.


Tony Bonanno
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dkeyes
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« Reply #31 on: February 05, 2007, 08:24:45 PM »
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Mr. Saffir,
  How do yu feel it compares to the epson and canon as far as print quality only??
 THANKS!!
 Chris
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99317\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

You didn't ask me as well but I have done some comparisons with the Epson 9800 and z3100 44".
I've printed two different images on both machines. 9800 with ergosoft rip, 9800 without the rip (ie; Photoshop to printer) and z3100 without a rip (again straight from photoshop). Images were printed on Epson premium glossy. I also printed on HP Premium Instant dry gloss on the z3100 (as well as the Epson paper).

9800 with ergosoft made the best looking prints overall. Smooth shadows, good color gamut, no gloss differential and some bronzing in the blue sky at extreme viewing angles.

9800 (no rip) was similar to above but shadow areas weren't as smooth with black being built out of only one color in places making it stand out.

z3100 (no rip) was similar to 9800 with ergosoft but had no bronzing (printed with full gloss). There is some gloss differential in the highlights (off all places). It's odd, but the highlights seem to have more gloss due to less ink on the glossy substrate. I had the same result on two different images and two different papers. Not sure if a rip would help this. For me this is a big problem that needs to be resolved, as glossy paper tends to get the best dmax.

By the way, I tried Canon Premium photo satin on the z3100 and the gloss differential is gone. This type of substrate (along with many art/rag papers) seems to be where this printer shines. I'll be testing Hahnemuhle Fine Art Pearl and Innova F-type semi-matte here soon.

Doug
« Last Edit: February 05, 2007, 08:57:27 PM by dkeyes » Logged

chris anderson
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« Reply #32 on: February 05, 2007, 09:17:48 PM »
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Sorry for not asking all of you guys!! : )  I had an Epson 9800 and was using the IP rip with it. I have had great results, just always looking for more. Just trying to decide beteween the IPF8000 or the Z3100. I am not worried about speed, or single sheet feed, etc.. I usually print on luster type papers, that is why I am starting to lean towards the Z.  the print head strike, is making me a bit nervous in going with the Z. Any help or guideance you guys might be able to give would be highly appreciated! I am now printerless, and am getting the itch to get one soon.
  Chris
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marty m
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« Reply #33 on: February 07, 2007, 02:29:00 AM »
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I own the Epson 4000.  Am considering using the rebate program to get the Z3100.

Someone said it would be unfair to compare the Z3100 to the 4000.  Why?

In terms of print quality for color, how big a difference?

For black and white?

General useability and features?  (Setting aside the print size)

Thanks very much for any responses.
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Christopher
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« Reply #34 on: February 07, 2007, 07:19:03 AM »
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I own the Epson 4000.  Am considering using the rebate program to get the Z3100.

Someone said it would be unfair to compare the Z3100 to the 4000.  Why?

In terms of print quality for color, how big a difference?

For black and white?

General useability and features?  (Setting aside the print size)

Thanks very much for any responses.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99606\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I had an 4000 before the z3100 and my R2400. Sorry but in my eyes the 4000 is old. It can't really compete anymore. Yes it was a nice printer but both are far better. Especially the HP is fantastic compared to the old 4000. ( Extreme on Glossy but also pretty much on Matt papers)

I compared prints a lot and I think in that term the 4000 is really "old"
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marty m
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« Reply #35 on: February 07, 2007, 09:47:01 AM »
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I had an 4000 before the z3100 and my R2400. Sorry but in my eyes the 4000 is old. It can't really compete anymore. Yes it was a nice printer but both are far better. Especially the HP is fantastic compared to the old 4000. ( Extreme on Glossy but also pretty much on Matt papers)

I compared prints a lot and I think in that term the 4000 is really "old"
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99633\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Christopher -- thanks very much, especially for comment on mat papers, since I primarily print on those cotton papers in color.

How, exactly, do you think the new z3100 is superior to the 4000 in color with mat papers?  Deeper blacks?  Better tones?

Is the difference using photo papers more pronounced, that it is in color?

I apologize for the number of questions below, but any response on any of these points would be greatly appreciated:

(1)  The other thread is discussing lots of problems with the z3100.  Is the consensus that these are isolated to a few individuals, or a common issue among all users?   Would you recommend that someone buy now or wait?  And if it is to wait, how long, since the rebate expires in May

(2)  Anyone know if Canon will provide a software update that will allow us to see the print que on the hard drive, so print jobs can be easily repeated?  That is a significant failure and dumb mistake on the part of HP.  Why spool jobs to the hard drive and then not allow us to access them?

(3)  Apparently the HP GL/2 upgrade does allow the viewing of the print que.  But would it work with jpeg or tiff photo files?  What is the cost of the HP GL/2 -- I can't find it on the web site

(4)  Any opinions on the long term reliability of HP as compared with Epson?  One issue is that HP depends on the hard drive.  Hard drives fail.  But that is clearly not a user replaceable part, and you can't access it to back up the contents.  I assume the drive might run constantly, since HP recommends leaving the printer on all the time.  I wonder what an on-site repair might cost if you don't have a service contract.  (3 years of next day service is $1500)

(5)  Has anyone purchased the Advanced Profiling Solution?  Cost?  I can't find it on the web site.  Usefulness?

(6)  There has been some discussion of USB versus slow ethernet connection.  One way to speed up ethernet is the Jetdirect 625n or 635n gigabit ethernet server to plug in to the printer.  The web site says that the 625n may not be compatible, but both are listed in the manual for the printer.  The 625 has EE or EP (?) which I think is necessary for bidirectional communications, the 635 does not.  Any opinions on either of those?

(7)  There has also been some discussion about problems loading sheets.  But the Epson 4000 is not trouble free in that regard, using 17x22 mat sheets.  Is the HP better or worse in that regard?

(Cool  There are two models -- the Z3100, and a model with a letter following that.  What is the difference?  I wonder who sells both.  B&H only lists the standard model.

(9)  I think someone said that if an ink cartridge runs out in the middle of a print job, you lose the print?  Is that correct?  If so, that is a signficant failure as compared with the Epson 4000.  If you try to change cartridges based on software warnings or even a front panel indicator, you will do so prematurely, at least based on the 4000.  With the 4000 you can run them to the bitter end, the printer will stop half way through a print, and then resume right where it left off when you install a new ink cartridge.  How does the Z3100 compare in that regard?

(10)  Any views on HP versus Canon, and whether it makes sense to wait for the rumored new Canon 24" printer?
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adiallo
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« Reply #36 on: February 07, 2007, 11:23:54 AM »
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(1)  The other thread is discussing lots of problems with the z3100.  Is the consensus that these are isolated to a few individuals, or a common issue among all users?   Would you recommend that someone buy now or wait?  And if it is to wait, how long, since the rebate expires in May
I have the Z3100 44 inch model in my studio for evaluation. The main issue of this board revolves around the zebra print/head strike. I have not experienced that at all and have loaded Hahnemuhle, Innova and of course HP media. Others have had poor results after upgrading firmware. I just updated mine this morning to troubleshoot a separate issue, so we'll see if I'm affected negatively also.
People post to forums more often for help with problems, so take that into account. By no means am I dismmissing the issue users are having here. Their problems are real and need to be addressed. Until an official solution is provided that's what makes web forums so useful. But it's hard to draw conclusions about whether something is widespread based on such a small sample of users. Check out the Apple discussion boards and you'd think they make the most unreliable and disaster-prone computer in the world.
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(2)  Anyone know if Canon will provide a software update that will allow us to see the print que on the hard drive, so print jobs can be easily repeated?  That is a significant failure and dumb mistake on the part of HP.  Why spool jobs to the hard drive and then not allow us to access them?
Just a guess, but pretty sure the print jobs have to be wiped periodically to save disk space. There's also profile generating software in there. So a RIP might be a better option where spooled jobs could be stored on a larger user volume.
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(3)  Apparently the HP GL/2 upgrade does allow the viewing of the print que.  But would it work with jpeg or tiff photo files?  What is the cost of the HP GL/2 -- I can't find it on the web site
(4)  Any opinions on the long term reliability of HP as compared with Epson?  One issue is that HP depends on the hard drive.  Hard drives fail.  But that is clearly not a user replaceable part, and you can't access it to back up the contents.  I assume the drive might run constantly, since HP recommends leaving the printer on all the time.  I wonder what an on-site repair might cost if you don't have a service contract.  (3 years of next day service is $1500)
No one can talk about long term reliability of a printer that has been out for only 2 months. The service contracts offered by HP, I'm happy to say are cheaper than what I'm paying to Epson and you can get up to 4 additional years (plus the included 1 year) warranty AND buy a warranty even after your original 1 year deal expires.
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(5)  Has anyone purchased the Advanced Profiling Solution?  Cost?  I can't find it on the web site.  Usefulness?
A few posters on this forum have it if I remember correctly. From their accounts it seems to be a work in progress. You can only make CMYK profiles with the APS if you're driving the printer with a CMYK RIP. And the better ones come with a profiling option anyway, so I'm not sure about the value of APS unless you want to initiate monitor calibration and profiling through the HP print utility. Don't have the cost handy at the moment.
Quote
(6)  There has been some discussion of USB versus slow ethernet connection.  One way to speed up ethernet is the Jetdirect 625n or 635n gigabit ethernet server to plug in to the printer.  The web site says that the 625n may not be compatible, but both are listed in the manual for the printer.  The 625 has EE or EP (?) which I think is necessary for bidirectional communications, the 635 does not.  Any opinions on either of those?
I'm running via Ethernet and spooling speeds out of PSCS2 are sometimes very slow. But the firmware update, at 300+MB moved very quickly to the printer, so maybe the 100 Ethernet speed is not the bottleneck.
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(7)  There has also been some discussion about problems loading sheets.  But the Epson 4000 is not trouble free in that regard, using 17x22 mat sheets.  Is the HP better or worse in that regard?
Sheet loading is working fine here. Coming from Epson LFs it did take some getting used to but after a couple of days I'm not getting paper skew messages. It is picky though, you definitely have better luck with well cut sheets. I haven't tried any deckled edges yet but I'm guessing those would present a problem. The paper sensor initially, at least, checks for even spacing along the long side of the paper versus slant along the front-fed edge.
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(Cool  There are two models -- the Z3100, and a model with a letter following that.  What is the difference?  I wonder who sells both.  B&H only lists the standard model.
(9)  I think someone said that if an ink cartridge runs out in the middle of a print job, you lose the print?  Is that correct?  If so, that is a signficant failure as compared with the Epson 4000.  If you try to change cartridges based on software warnings or even a front panel indicator, you will do so prematurely, at least based on the 4000.  With the 4000 you can run them to the bitter end, the printer will stop half way through a print, and then resume right where it left off when you install a new ink cartridge.  How does the Z3100 compare in that regard?
Still on my first set of carts (as most users would be) but the manual indicates you replace an empty cart to continue printing. The printing will pause until the cart is replaced.
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(10)  Any views on HP versus Canon, and whether it makes sense to wait for the rumored new Canon 24" printer?
New technology is always sexy and tempting. but if you want to go into a purchase with no doubts hanging over your head, it's always a good idea to wait for us guinea pigs to find all the problems and get them resolved. Of course by then, a new printer may be out and you'll just have to start waiting all over again   The whole bleeding edge thing...
« Last Edit: February 07, 2007, 11:26:33 AM by adiallo » Logged

mcbroomf
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« Reply #37 on: February 07, 2007, 12:53:29 PM »
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Marty,
I'm also coming from an Epson 4000, the main reason so that I can start using pearl/satin finishes with better dmax.  At the moment with the issues I've had I have not been able to make that comparison.  With HP support though it looks like the printer is now ready and I'll give an update from test prints on HM PR 308 when I'm back from a trip in a couple of weeks.

The HM FAP issue looks like it's due to very low humidity (<20%) in conjunction with the normal head setting (which is default if you make the custom profile from the Photo semiglass/satin paper type).  In a conference call with HP in Barcelona today they told me that are going to work on a custom profile for this paper, so I may try it once more while it still cold and dry, then try again when humidity is up to 40 or more.  

In the mean time I'll explore other papers starting with HP Pro Satin that has been highly recommended.  I won't be using it on the Epson though as I don't want to get a custom profile made for it.
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marty m
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« Reply #38 on: February 08, 2007, 01:30:02 AM »
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The service contracts offered by HP, I'm happy to say are cheaper than what I'm paying to Epson and you can get up to 4 additional years (plus the included 1 year) warranty AND buy a warranty even after your original 1 year deal expires.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99664\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The HP 3y NBD Designjet Z3100 HW Supp is $1500.  

The Epson 2 yr (3 yr total) is $1100.  

Are we correct to assume that the HP 3 year starts at the end of the one year warranty for a total of 4?  They don't explicitly say.

Does anyone know whether the HP-GL/2 upgrade works with standard jpeg or tiff photo files?  Specifically, "Job queuing means that all HP-GL/2 jobs sent to the printer are added to a queue that you can view and manage" -- does that work with tiff or psd files that are printed?

GP upgrade -- what is it and the cost?

Thanks for any responses!
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adiallo
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« Reply #39 on: February 08, 2007, 09:21:01 AM »
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The HP 3y NBD Designjet Z3100 HW Supp is $1500. 

The Epson 2 yr (3 yr total) is $1100. 

Are we correct to assume that the HP 3 year starts at the end of the one year warranty for a total of 4?  They don't explicitly say.

Does anyone know whether the HP-GL/2 upgrade works with standard jpeg or tiff photo files?  Specifically, "Job queuing means that all HP-GL/2 jobs sent to the printer are added to a queue that you can view and manage" -- does that work with tiff or psd files that are printed?

GP upgrade -- what is it and the cost?
Epson warranties list additional years of coverage. HP warranties list total years of coverage. On a new printer the Epson 2yr warranty is equivalent to the HP 3yr warranty in terms of the time covered. My bad on the HP being cheaper.For a 9800 Epson list is $1300 compared to HP list of $1500 for 3 total years of coverage. I initially compared it to Epson pricing on an old warranty for a 9500 printer. Epson's prices came down when the x600 printers arrived.

Now, say you don't buy an extended warranty within your inital year of ownership. Epson will not sell you an extended warranty. HP will not sell you a 3,4,or 5 year extended warranty but will sell you 1 year warranties that start on the date you buy them. You can renew these year-to-year post-warranty contracts.

GP is the printer with the APS bundle. You have to call HP for a price.
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