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Author Topic: Sinar - Sinar Hy6 - Jenoptik - F&H, etc ....  (Read 19622 times)
thsinar
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« Reply #20 on: January 31, 2007, 03:54:42 AM »
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Thanks Thierry,

I was being thick ! 


Pete
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=98476\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

You are welcome and I wouldn't dare to say that you've been thick!
Far from me this idea
 

Thierry,
Sinar AG Switzerland
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #21 on: January 31, 2007, 05:00:56 AM »
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In summary, at the moment, it looks like you can buy(..) Mamiya/Phase if you want an MF camera that is in production. The days of match and mix are fading. 

Where has Leaf said that they will not support Mamiya once the AFi goes into production? I doubt that Leaf are about to drop a large installed base of Mamiya users. I suspect that the same would go for the eMotion backs as well.  
 
No doubt dropping the Mamiya platform might increase sales of AFi's, but it might knock other sales. I guess that could change over time if the AFi really delivers on its potential.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2007, 05:01:46 AM by free1000 » Logged

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samuel_js
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« Reply #22 on: January 31, 2007, 06:50:38 AM »
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Pete,
There will be a Rolleiflex branded camera in Japan , China and Russia, sold by F&H. In ALL other countries it will be sold by Sinar with the name Sinar Hy6.
Best regards,
thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=98473\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

That's the answer to my question. Thank's.
Can you explain why this decision? I hope it's not asking too much...
« Last Edit: January 31, 2007, 01:08:07 PM by samuel_js » Logged
cogden
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« Reply #23 on: March 07, 2007, 12:47:59 PM »
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Thierry- thanks for your help on this forum. I will be purchasing either the H3 or the Hy6 (after a series of bad pre-sales experiences with Phase One in Antarctica).

Just a heads up that both the links you posted are broken (one a 404 error, the other a database error).
Quote
for more information go to following link:

http://www.jenoptik-los.com/cms.php?pageid=60?=1

- It has been announced and pupblished officially (Press Release dated December 13th 2006) that the Jenoptik AG - Leica AG sale/purchase agreement of Sinar AG had been canceled:

---> http://www.jenoptik.com/cps/rde/xchg/SID-2...l/3725_4723.htm

Also, searching for "Hy6" on the jenoptik site returns no hits...
Quote
Unfortunately, our search machine has failed to come up with any matching results. Please type in a similar or new keyword and try again. Thank you.

As well, trying to explore CaptureShop throws an error:
Quote

Unfortunately, to echo some of the other sentiments on this board, such difficulties with getting clear product information present a hurdle to buyers (even motivated buyers such as myself).

Also, trying to find pricing on an Hy6 kit, has been even more challenging, even after following the links from sinarbron dealers (eg, http://www.fotocare.com/html/SearchResult....uct=&submit=Go)  
"Your query is empty, please try again."

Perhaps worst of all, after filling out the detailed contact form to request info on the Hy6, it generates an error
Quote
An error occurred while sending mail.
(http://www.sinarbron.com/literature-ty.php). Sinare is making it pretty hard to have faith in after sales support when presales is so difficult.

We are lucky to have you to keep the information coming...
-c
« Last Edit: March 07, 2007, 01:09:48 PM by cogden » Logged
Caracalla
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« Reply #24 on: March 07, 2007, 01:49:41 PM »
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I will be purchasing either the H3 or the Hy6 (after a series of bad pre-sales experiences with Phase One in Antarctica).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105299\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Not many people can say that for sure, do you care to share some more details what happened?

What makes you believe Hy6 will satisfy you pre-sales experiences, sugar coated words? because anything else apart from that is not available anywhere in the world.

But if you don't like it then you don't like it, but it's OK to know a little more about your
bad pre-sales experiences no?

Regards
« Last Edit: March 07, 2007, 01:50:35 PM by Caracalla » Logged
mattlap2
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« Reply #25 on: March 07, 2007, 02:36:42 PM »
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Thierry- thanks for your help on this forum. I will be purchasing either the H3 or the Hy6 (after a series of bad pre-sales experiences with Phase One in Antarctica).

Just a heads up that both the links you posted are broken (one a 404 error, the other a database error).
Also, searching for "Hy6" on the jenoptik site returns no hits...
As well, trying to explore CaptureShop throws an error:

Unfortunately, to echo some of the other sentiments on this board, such difficulties with getting clear product information present a hurdle to buyers (even motivated buyers such as myself).

Also, trying to find pricing on an Hy6 kit, has been even more challenging, even after following the links from sinarbron dealers (eg, http://www.fotocare.com/html/SearchResult....uct=&submit=Go) 
"Your query is empty, please try again."

Perhaps worst of all, after filling out the detailed contact form to request info on the Hy6, it generates an error  (http://www.sinarbron.com/literature-ty.php). Sinare is making it pretty hard to have faith in after sales support when presales is so difficult.

We are lucky to have you to keep the information coming...
-c
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105299\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

If you can email me your contact info either myself or the local rep will get in touch with you.   I will let the powers that be at the office know about the link for Hy6 Information.   The truth is pricing has not been established yet for the Hy6 so there is no pricing to give yet.   That will be more forthcoming when we get an exact date of delivery.

But again please contact me at mlapointe@sinarbron.com with your name, address and phone number and I will be in touch with you for any questions you may have.

Sincerely,

Matt LaPointe
Sinar Bron Imaging
National Sales Support Manager
(219) 670-9905
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cogden
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« Reply #26 on: March 07, 2007, 05:21:56 PM »
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Not many people can say that for sure, do you care to share some more details what happened?

What makes you believe Hy6 will satisfy you pre-sales experiences, sugar coated words? because anything else apart from that is not available anywhere in the world.

But if you don't like it then you don't like it, but it's OK to know a little more about your
bad pre-sales experiences no?

As with most evaluations of electronic technology, especially of those at the "top" and/or cutting edge, there are seldom 100% clear cut choices.

Unfortunately, I'm in the midst of two such "grey" (ie, not B&W/clearcut) techno-eval struggles.

One is around choosing the best large format printer for our "traditional" color landscape photos which are displayed framed, under non-glare glaze  (ie, not doing fine art reproduction in open frames). No one will be touching the paper, so the "feel"  of art papers becomes less important. Also, to date we print almost exclusively on glossy photo papers which we find nicely offsets the snap/sharpness/detail lost by the nonglare glass/acrylic. Excellent prices, color management, gamut (esp. lower L and blacks), and turn-around time from competitors in the "traditional" lightjet/chromira space reduce (perhaps nullify) the advantages of inkjet as we understand them. But I'm exploring the inkjet options to be "sure"(if one can be). That exploration has certainly shown some real drama (ie, just read the threads on the pros/cons/woes/confusion surrounding capabilities of HP Z3100 vs. Canon IPF6000 vs. Epson 7800). While it looked like the Z3100 would be the clear choice, now, not so much.

The other evaluation involves the subject of this forum topic: investing in my new, primary shooting camera. Frankly, it's unfortunate for me that it does not appear that Canon will be releasing an upgrade for the 1DS II anytime soon (ie, min. 9 months plus), which depending upon the actual advances they achieve could allow me to avoid the expense and challenges of digital MF all together. It could make my choice relatively easy (in the context of what/how I shoot).  However, given Canon's delays, it appears that I'll "have to" invest in a new digital medium format kit. Of the mainstream MF options (again for what I need), I was able to pretty quickly narrow my list down to P45, H3, and Hy6.

While I don't want to stir up unnecessary drama on this issue, to answer your direct question about why I eliminated PhaseOne, I was with a prominent PhaseOne rep for over three weeks last month which I had hoped would be a perfect opportunity to be sold on the past/present/future of their backs. Frustratingly, despite my numerous efforts/requests to be educated on PhaseOne by him both proactively before and during the trip (whether via extemporaneous discussions, marketing materials/powerpoint decks, trying out a demo model, etc.,), he but ignored me on the trip. Even after I announced in front of him that "I guess I'm going to have to buy the H3 then", amazingly he said/did nothing. As a result, I lost confidence in PhaseOne's customer service and crossed them off my list.

In terms of H3 vs. Hy6, I know several people with H2's who are happy with the company and products and who are lusting after the 28mm. As such, it makes the proven, third generation H3 a compelling front runner (and I can get it for an excellent price from B&H). As well, the "chatter" about the Hy6 consortium-built camera and unclear branding/config/pricing/support makes it feel uneasily like the way the Mamiya ZD evolved (or not - it's still not avail in the US). However, there has been enough background noise against the H3 and in praise of the Hy6, that I'm going to invest the effort to seriously evaluate it (with the help of the great people on these and other forums).

All in all, even if relative prices are not considered, such complex purchases involve trade-offs which make any decision a "best-fit" rather than an "ideal." One of the key questions to me, even before whether the features/functions meet my needs best, is whether there is support and continuing development to make my investment of time/mindshare/maintenance (which over the long run eclipses the initial capital cost) viable.

I don't know if I've added much with my comments, but I hope I at least answered some of your questions.

Thanks to all in these forums who form a community that materially helps us all!
-c
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cogden
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« Reply #27 on: March 07, 2007, 05:34:01 PM »
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If you can email me your contact info either myself or the local rep will get in touch with you. 

That would be great! I've sent the info to you as requested.
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digitalguy
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« Reply #28 on: March 07, 2007, 06:43:03 PM »
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Sorry for your experience with the Phase rep. In most recent years I have found thier staff to be more than helpful. The phase is a great system. I would suggest that you contact your local rep (found on thier website) and i am sure they will be more than happy to assist you.
Sometimes people's personalities do not mesh, but that is why there are a number of indviduals that make up the whole team. It may be short sighted to take them off your list. If I stopped using products or services where I may not have liked where I was treated, well then I would never buy an Apple,Cannon or Hasselbald.
What I am trying to say is do not cut off your nose to spite your face and put all the equipment through a proper evaluaiton now that you are back here in the states.

dg
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thsinar
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« Reply #29 on: March 07, 2007, 06:45:26 PM »
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Dear cogden,

sorry about the links. I have found the current right place.

And sorry for the "error" messages you've got for each of your trials: be sure that this is not intentional. We shall try to sort this out. Be sure that I shall be here to inform about whatever information is available and answer questions

1. Try following for News about Jenoptik/Sinar:

http://www.jenoptik-los.com/cms.php?NEWSID...pageid=67&lang1

Addendum: somehow this link does also not lead to the right place, and you need to go through the press releases.
However, and for more convenience I have copied and added the text of Jenoptik's take-over of Sinar at the end of this post

2. Hy6

The Hy6 is not yet advertised as an available product and you won't find it at Jenoptik's page.
Also, definitive prices are not yet out: this shall be the case shortly before the official release
Go to Sinar's homepage ----> "Downloads" ---> "Brochures" ---> "200 - Sinar Hy6 - Brochure (pdf/808.40KB)"

3. Captureshop

if you wish to have an Installer of the latest CS version please let me know (PM) and I shall send you the installer via my FTP.

Or I guess Matt from SBI will be willing to help you here as well.

Let me know if I can be of further help.

Best regards,
Thierry
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Press Release Jenoptik AG - 29.09.2005

09/29/05 - Sinar has a new majority shareholder in Jenoptik

   
The Jenoptik subsidiary JENOPTIK Laser, Optik, Systeme GmbH has acquired a 51 percent stake in Sinar AG (Switzerland). The remaining 49 percent of the shares remain with Sinar Holding. The parties agreed not to disclose the purchase price. The share acquisition still requires the consent of the German Monopolies and Mergers Commission.

By taking this step JENOPTIK Laser, Optik, Systeme GmbH, Sinar’s most important partner, is making a direct investment in the medium-sized, family-owned company. In Jenoptik as the majority shareholder, Sinar is gaining a partner engaged in the field of digital imaging, with strong technological expertise and finances who will ensure that in the future it can continue to develop leading technology products for professional digital photography. In Autumn last year Jenoptik and Sinar combined their areas of expertise in the field of professional digital photography within a partnership agreement.

“The heart of today’s professional Sinar cameras are digital camera backs which have been developed over recent years together with JENOPTIK Laser, Optik, Systeme. The integration of sophisticated high-tech components increasingly requires partners with expertise to join forces. With Jenoptik, the technology group, Sinar will be able to continue to expand its leading position in the field of professional digital photography in the global market” said Hans-Carl Koch, Chairman of the Board of Sinar Holding.

The acquisition of a majority holding in the Sinar global brand will enable JENOPTIK Laser, Optik, Systeme GmbH to strengthen its existing successful cooperation with the Swiss camera systems manufacturer.
“In Sinar cameras we have the optimum platform for our digital camera backs” says Hans Szymanski, Managing Director of the Jenoptik subsidiary. Jenoptik will become the preferred partner for the professional user in digital professional photography.
The company offers complete solutions comprising a full line of products – from the lens to the capturing software and a unique digital know-how.

Feuerthalen/Jena, September 29, 2005


Company portrait of Sinar AG (www.sinarcameras.com)

The firm of Sinar was founded in 1948 by Carl Koch. The family-owned company develops, manufactures and distributes camera systems for the professional photography market. Since 1992 Sinar has been offering digital photography systems in the high-end range. The logical modular system comprises digital backs, digital lenses, capturing software and camera components. These enable the user to put together an ideally coordinated camera system in order to efficiently produce sophisticated photographs of the highest quality.


Company portrait of
JENOPTIK Laser, Optik, Systeme GmbH

JENOPTIK Laser, Optik, Systeme GmbH was founded in 1995 and is a 100-percent owned subsidiary of the technology group JENOPTIK AG, Jena (ISIN DE 0006229107). In the fields of laser technology, optics and sensor systems the company develops, manufactures and distributes laser beam sources, optical components, modules and system solutions as well as technologies for the precision measurement, reproduction, structuring and analysis of various materials. The company’s success is founded on state-of-the-art technologies and client-specific applications.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote
Thierry- thanks for your help on this forum. I will be purchasing either the H3 or the Hy6 (after a series of bad pre-sales experiences with Phase One in Antarctica).

Just a heads up that both the links you posted are broken (one a 404 error, the other a database error).
Also, searching for "Hy6" on the jenoptik site returns no hits...
As well, trying to explore CaptureShop throws an error:

Unfortunately, to echo some of the other sentiments on this board, such difficulties with getting clear product information present a hurdle to buyers (even motivated buyers such as myself).

Also, trying to find pricing on an Hy6 kit, has been even more challenging, even after following the links from sinarbron dealers (eg, http://www.fotocare.com/html/SearchResult....uct=&submit=Go) 
"Your query is empty, please try again."

Perhaps worst of all, after filling out the detailed contact form to request info on the Hy6, it generates an error  (http://www.sinarbron.com/literature-ty.php). Sinare is making it pretty hard to have faith in after sales support when presales is so difficult.

We are lucky to have you to keep the information coming...
-c
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105299\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
« Last Edit: March 08, 2007, 02:19:59 AM by thsinar » Logged

Thierry Hagenauer
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Caracalla
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« Reply #30 on: March 08, 2007, 07:50:00 AM »
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As with most evaluations of electronic technology, especially of those at the "top" and/or cutting edge, there are seldom 100% clear cut choices.

Unfortunately, I'm in the midst of two such "grey" (ie, not B&W/clearcut) techno-eval struggles.

One is around choosing the best large format printer for our "traditional" color landscape photos which are displayed framed, under non-glare glaze  (ie, not doing fine art reproduction in open frames). No one will be touching the paper, so the "feel"  of art papers becomes less important. Also, to date we print almost exclusively on glossy photo papers which we find nicely offsets the snap/sharpness/detail lost by the nonglare glass/acrylic. Excellent prices, color management, gamut (esp. lower L and blacks), and turn-around time from competitors in the "traditional" lightjet/chromira space reduce (perhaps nullify) the advantages of inkjet as we understand them. But I'm exploring the inkjet options to be "sure"(if one can be). That exploration has certainly shown some real drama (ie, just read the threads on the pros/cons/woes/confusion surrounding capabilities of HP Z3100 vs. Canon IPF6000 vs. Epson 7800). While it looked like the Z3100 would be the clear choice, now, not so much.

The other evaluation involves the subject of this forum topic: investing in my new, primary shooting camera. Frankly, it's unfortunate for me that it does not appear that Canon will be releasing an upgrade for the 1DS II anytime soon (ie, min. 9 months plus), which depending upon the actual advances they achieve could allow me to avoid the expense and challenges of digital MF all together. It could make my choice relatively easy (in the context of what/how I shoot).  However, given Canon's delays, it appears that I'll "have to" invest in a new digital medium format kit. Of the mainstream MF options (again for what I need), I was able to pretty quickly narrow my list down to P45, H3, and Hy6.

While I don't want to stir up unnecessary drama on this issue, to answer your direct question about why I eliminated PhaseOne, I was with a prominent PhaseOne rep for over three weeks last month which I had hoped would be a perfect opportunity to be sold on the past/present/future of their backs. Frustratingly, despite my numerous efforts/requests to be educated on PhaseOne by him both proactively before and during the trip (whether via extemporaneous discussions, marketing materials/powerpoint decks, trying out a demo model, etc.,), he but ignored me on the trip. Even after I announced in front of him that "I guess I'm going to have to buy the H3 then", amazingly he said/did nothing. As a result, I lost confidence in PhaseOne's customer service and crossed them off my list.

In terms of H3 vs. Hy6, I know several people with H2's who are happy with the company and products and who are lusting after the 28mm. As such, it makes the proven, third generation H3 a compelling front runner (and I can get it for an excellent price from B&H). As well, the "chatter" about the Hy6 consortium-built camera and unclear branding/config/pricing/support makes it feel uneasily like the way the Mamiya ZD evolved (or not - it's still not avail in the US). However, there has been enough background noise against the H3 and in praise of the Hy6, that I'm going to invest the effort to seriously evaluate it (with the help of the great people on these and other forums).

All in all, even if relative prices are not considered, such complex purchases involve trade-offs which make any decision a "best-fit" rather than an "ideal." One of the key questions to me, even before whether the features/functions meet my needs best, is whether there is support and continuing development to make my investment of time/mindshare/maintenance (which over the long run eclipses the initial capital cost) viable.

I don't know if I've added much with my comments, but I hope I at least answered some of your questions.

Thanks to all in these forums who form a community that materially helps us all!
-c
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105359\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
It sounds like you having problems with Phase one guy and his personality/ego issues not the Digital Back. I wouldn't expect full attention in Antartica from any representative anyway but that is not good excuse also.

BTW was he hospitable with everybody else?

I understand your first impression is very important like with everything else in life.

Good Luck with your favorite system
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phila
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« Reply #31 on: March 09, 2007, 04:07:09 AM »
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Well as far as pricing goes the following info from the Oz importer of Rollei/Leaf/Sinar arrived in a brochure this week. All in AUD$. This may or may not be a guide to other parts of the world. Our GST is 10%.

1. Rolleiflex 6008AF/WL Finder with 80mm Schneider f2.8 and FREE upgrade to a Hy6: $10,750 (inc GST).

2. Sinar eMotion 75 and Rollei 6008 AF Kit (inc. Sinar digital back Rollei camera body, WL Finder and eMotion 75 adapter): $43,000 (inc GST)

Upgade Paths:

upgrade to a Sinar Hy6: $5,500.00 (inc GST)

or

Buy the new Hy6 and keep the 6008AF as well: $3,500.00 (inc GST)

3. Sinar eMotion 75 plus adapter: $36,500.00 (inc GST)

The Leaf AFi got a page but no prices mentioned.
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Fahsi
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« Reply #32 on: March 09, 2007, 04:55:03 AM »
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Well as far as pricing goes the following info from the Oz importer of Rollei/Leaf/Sinar arrived in a brochure this week. All in AUD$. This may or may not be a guide to other parts of the world. Our GST is 10%.

1. Rolleiflex 6008AF/WL Finder with 80mm Schneider f2.8 and FREE upgrade to a Hy6: $10,750 (inc GST).

2. Sinar eMotion 75 and Rollei 6008 AF Kit (inc. Sinar digital back Rollei camera body, WL Finder and eMotion 75 adapter): $43,000 (inc GST)

Upgade Paths:

upgrade to a Sinar Hy6: $5,500.00 (inc GST)

or

Buy the new Hy6 and keep the 6008AF as well: $3,500.00 (inc GST)

3. Sinar eMotion 75 plus adapter: $36,500.00 (inc GST)

The Leaf AFi got a page but no prices mentioned.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105609\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


in € convertet this is quite cheap  
didn't thought that a swiss brand is cheaper than hassy  
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Graham Mitchell
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« Reply #33 on: March 09, 2007, 07:43:42 AM »
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Upgade Paths:

upgrade to a Sinar Hy6: $5,500.00 (inc GST)

or

Buy the new Hy6 and keep the 6008AF as well: $3,500.00 (inc GST)

Are you sure you didn't get these the wrong way around?
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Graham Mitchell - www.graham-mitchell.com
thsinar
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« Reply #34 on: March 09, 2007, 07:54:22 AM »
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Precisions:

- Those prices are valid in Australia: don't take them as valid for everywhere.

- the upgrade price to Hy6 indicated is valid for those having purchased and eMotion 75 Kit with 6008 A, as a very special price.

- those who want to keep the 6008 AF have to pay an additional price as indicated.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
Are you sure you didn't get these the wrong way around?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105628\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #35 on: March 09, 2007, 08:59:14 AM »
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Upgade Paths:

upgrade to a Sinar Hy6: $5,500.00 (inc GST)

or

Buy the new Hy6 and keep the 6008AF as well: $3,500.00 (inc GST)

3. Sinar eMotion 75 plus adapter: $36,500.00 (inc GST)

The Leaf AFi got a page but no prices mentioned.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105609\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Not bad for a good start I think later lenses are going to blow the roof not camera, but the quality will be there for sure.

Good Luck
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