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Author Topic: Vista Ripoff  (Read 15100 times)
gbunton
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« Reply #40 on: February 07, 2007, 08:00:31 PM »
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don't you guys have anything better to do like take some photographs? This whole mac vs windows operating systems is senseless. My brother in law has been an apple engineer for ten years and dosn't own a mac computer. I have owned macs since the early 90's so what. I have used every operating system known, it's almost like the argument about which cameras you choose. The answer is it doesn't matter. The only thing  that matters is that whatever you use does the job for you. G
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plugsnpixels
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« Reply #41 on: February 07, 2007, 08:34:48 PM »
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True, but the computer and software are an integral part of the imaging workflow lately ;-).

So, what's the deal with your brother-in-law? Does he not use the software he creates?
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LoisWakeman
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« Reply #42 on: February 08, 2007, 05:48:56 AM »
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And the rapidly maturing open source movement is nipping at the heels of them all (Linux, GIMP, Paint.net, OpenOffice, Audacity, etc.). Those dependent on Microsoft products (OS and apps) especially should be looking elsewhere for their software needs
As someone who's just implemented a Joomla! web site for a client, I had to snort with laughter over that one.
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plugsnpixels
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« Reply #43 on: February 08, 2007, 03:31:14 PM »
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As someone who's just implemented a Joomla! web site for a client, I had to snort with laughter over that one.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99819\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I have no experience with the open-source Joomla, but you seem to have been using it professionally despite your amusement at the concept. So how did the project go?
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LoisWakeman
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« Reply #44 on: February 09, 2007, 08:12:28 AM »
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I have no experience with the open-source Joomla, but you seem to have been using it professionally despite your amusement at the concept. So how did the project go?[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99929\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
A bit of a nightmare (especially integrating the VirtueMart shopping cart): the documentation is terrible (I'm also a tech author!), lots of the functionality is entirely unintuitive, and it is entirely a matter of luck whether you can find the answer to your problem in the support forums.

The client wanted a "free" solution, but ended up paying far more for my time than if she'd just bought Actinic and done it herself.

OS is a fine concept - like communism. And like communism, not so good in the real world.  

Joomla!/VM is great if your time is free and unlimited, but not a very realistic proposition in a commercial setting for SMEs unless you are prepared to put in large amounts of time for nothing learning by trial and error, and then documenting and maintaining tens of little fixes that all have to be redone at every new release.

Written by people who enjoy a technical challenge but often seem to have little experience of the practical needs of the business world.

That is my experience of this one product - but of course YMMV.
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plugsnpixels
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« Reply #45 on: February 09, 2007, 01:27:09 PM »
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Thanks Lois. I was thinking more in terms of desktop applications, especially image editing apps.

I know open-source is beginning to hurt at least one major well-known company, ACD Systems (makers of ACDSee). If you dredge up their financial reports from their website, they speak of competition from free image browsers, etc. as contributing to their steep decline in sales.

I'm a Mac user who enjoys the occasional open source app (Audacity for audio editing and various free imaging apps), but I think their attractiveness is mainly for those wishing to escape Microsoft's clutches in regards to the OS and productivity apps.

My web host is using Linux, FWIW. I've played with Ubuntu Linux and am impressed with the effort, though as an OS-X user I'm spoiled by the abundance of my software toys and would consider that direction a step backwards. But for those building a box from scratch, it's a very cool thing to have the option without the investment.
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John Camp
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« Reply #46 on: February 10, 2007, 05:53:11 PM »
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I won't get in the Microsoft/Mac argument -- I went to Macs basically because they're more like using a toaster. I don't have to think about what I'm doing (I have little interest in computers per se), and it works because I only use a few programs, like Word and Photoshop and Lightroom. I know from my long experience with Windows, though, that there is a heck of a lot more software out there for Windows -- try to find a really good road-map progam for Mac...

But I'm more interested in Bernard's observation: it's Adobe that really acts like a monopoly, with rapacious pricing and rules. A full Photoshop now costs $700 or so, and several hundred dollars every eighteen months if you want to keep up with the upgrades. And they limit how long you can go without upgrading, before your eligibility to upgrade expires. And what really winds my clock is that they only allow you to run it on two machines at a time, without jumping through your ass to turn off one while you're turning on another, etc. The fact is, many pro photographers and I suspect quite a few serious amateur photographers take two laptops (or more) with them on a shoot, in case one goes down; and they run a Photoshop on a big machine back at the studio. The two iteration limitation sucks; they say it's to keep down piracy, but in fact, they're using their monopoly power to troll for more sales even as it hurts their customer base.

I use Lightroom, and if I had an inclination to say bedtime prayers, I'd get down on my knees every night and pray that Apple keeps upgrading Aperture; I'd like to see Aperture become the most-kick-ass photo program out there, just so Adobe would be forced to keep improving Lightroom. In fact, I wouldn't mind seeing Apple buy some fairly-well-developed PS-like program, just to scare the crap out of Adobe, and do something about their ridiculous prices.

Sorry about the spit on your computer screens; I tend to rant about Adobe, even as I buy their products.

JC
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Raw shooter
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« Reply #47 on: February 10, 2007, 07:13:14 PM »
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I won't get in the Microsoft/Mac argument -- I went to Macs basically because they're more like using a toaster. I don't have to think about what I'm doing (I have little interest in computers per se), and it works because I only use a few programs, like Word and Photoshop and Lightroom. I know from my long experience with Windows, though, that there is a heck of a lot more software out there for Windows -- try to find a really good road-map progam for Mac...

But I'm more interested in Bernard's observation: it's Adobe that really acts like a monopoly, with rapacious pricing and rules. A full Photoshop now costs $700 or so, and several hundred dollars every eighteen months if you want to keep up with the upgrades. And they limit how long you can go without upgrading, before your eligibility to upgrade expires. And what really winds my clock is that they only allow you to run it on two machines at a time, without jumping through your ass to turn off one while you're turning on another, etc. The fact is, many pro photographers and I suspect quite a few serious amateur photographers take two laptops (or more) with them on a shoot, in case one goes down; and they run a Photoshop on a big machine back at the studio. The two iteration limitation sucks; they say it's to keep down piracy, but in fact, they're using their monopoly power to troll for more sales even as it hurts their customer base.  We all win!

I use Lightroom, and if I had an inclination to say bedtime prayers, I'd get down on my knees every night and pray that Apple keeps upgrading Aperture; I'd like to see Aperture become the most-kick-ass photo program out there, just so Adobe would be forced to keep improving Lightroom. In fact, I wouldn't mind seeing Apple buy some fairly-well-developed PS-like program, just to scare the crap out of Adobe, and do something about their ridiculous prices.

Sorry about the spit on your computer screens; I tend to rant about Adobe, even as I buy their products.

JC
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100244\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

John, That was beautiful - lets all hope pitiful Apple can keep their company together long enough (this time) to scare Adobe.  Clearly they don't scare Microsoft - which this thread was about.
Vista may scare both Apple and Adobe this time. Windows Color System may have legs, but either way, competition helps everybody equally.  Lets all hope 3 strong players in our field all stay healthy - prices will fall and the quality will rise.
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plugsnpixels
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« Reply #48 on: February 11, 2007, 02:49:29 AM »
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Vista may scare both Apple and Adobe this time.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100249\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

How so? It's basically XP with an Aqua face (yes, I used RC1...) and is Microsoft playing catch-up.

As for scaring Adobe, somebody besides Microsoft should have bought Creature House's Expression and kept that vector technology away from them.
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61Dynamic
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« Reply #49 on: February 11, 2007, 11:48:34 AM »
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How so? It's basically XP with an Aqua face (yes, I used RC1...) and is Microsoft playing catch-up.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Vista is certainly nothing revolutionary. It does similar functions that OSX has had for a couple years or more but doesn't do them nearly as well. It is certainly allot better than XP in many regards, but an OSX challenger? Not by a long shot but in reality, and despite snips taken at each other, they aren't really competing products.

In two and half years MS plans on releasing Vienna. [a href=\"http://feeds.engadget.com/~r/weblogsinc/engadget/~3/89174243/]Their next operating system[/url] with a "radical new user interface." Maybe they will have something solid then?
« Last Edit: February 11, 2007, 11:49:46 AM by 61Dynamic » Logged
plugsnpixels
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« Reply #50 on: February 11, 2007, 12:28:27 PM »
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Thanks for the Vienna info; I had not heard that. They'll soon have Apple's Leopard to copy, so maybe that's the cause for their confidence in the next version of Windows ;-).
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pss
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« Reply #51 on: February 11, 2007, 05:34:43 PM »
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Bill,

I understand your frustration with the pricing for Vista, et al. But honestly, all the various iterations of Mac OS X are basically small tweaks and small feature addition to the original. And for that, Apple charges for almost each and every minor upgrade, justifying their changes by calling it something -- Leopard, Panther, Tiger etc. -- and charging the consumer. Additionally, many times software patches are need to make your existing programs work with these OS X tweaks.

Microsoft -- good or bad, doesn't matter -- does one major OS revision every few years (in this case, over five!), and doesn't charge you for the patches and corrections.

This isn't a battle of the OS, it's the difference in the business model. My wife works on a Mac (graphic designer). She's laid out over $500 in recent years for her OS upgrades. In that time, I've laid out $0 for my WinXP Pro. The way I see it, I'm further ahead. And with what I spend every year in software upgrades, Windows is the least expensive on my list.

Nemo
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what software did she pay for? apple charges for each new OS...just like MS does...apple just comes out with one version (not pro, light,....) and charges 149.- for it....that ususally includes i life which now means iDVD, iMovie, Itunes, iPhoto, iWeb, iCal,....none of which are included with windows (at least not in similar quality)....
vista is at best on mac 10.4 level...in a couple of months 10.5 comes out which simply is year ahead of vista....
since the intel switch there really is no reason to buy a pc anymore...even PC magazines are starting to agree....and with bootcamp you can even run games on macs now......
i remember how my brother (who, like everybody else works on pc in his company) bought a mac for at home and saw how much better MS office is on the mac....
as far as i know software prices are the same for mac or windows....either way it does not matter now anyway...just run bootcamp...
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JBillings
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« Reply #52 on: February 12, 2007, 11:00:17 AM »
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what software did she pay for? apple charges for each new OS...just like MS does...apple just comes out with one version (not pro, light,....) and charges 149.- for it....that ususally includes i life which now means iDVD, iMovie, Itunes, iPhoto, iWeb, iCal,....none of which are included with windows (at least not in similar quality)....
vista is at best on mac 10.4 level...in a couple of months 10.5 comes out which simply is year ahead of vista....
since the intel switch there really is no reason to buy a pc anymore...even PC magazines are starting to agree....and with bootcamp you can even run games on macs now......
i remember how my brother (who, like everybody else works on pc in his company) bought a mac for at home and saw how much better MS office is on the mac....
as far as i know software prices are the same for mac or windows....either way it does not matter now anyway...just run bootcamp...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100386\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Just got to get my $0.02 worth in here.

First, Apple charges $129 for OS X upgrades (not $149).

Second, Apple does not upgrade OS X software every year.  They are on an 18 month upgrade cycle.  And all the 10.X.x upgrades for that 18 month period are free.

I agree Vista is about in line with Tiger, but missing a few features

When Tiger (10.4) was announced, approximately 2 years ago, the banner read... "Redmond, start your copy machines!"  Bill G's comment about Apple copying MSFT search technology was bull.... they didn't show Longhorn until 2 months later!

I feel better with that off my chest
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« Reply #53 on: February 12, 2007, 08:48:02 PM »
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Apple nick ideas from other people or buy the companies that have good ideas, just like Microsoft does. The only real difference between them is market share.
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gryffyn
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« Reply #54 on: February 13, 2007, 05:00:14 PM »
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I won't touch Vista for a long time, and with any luck, never.  Until SP1 is released, you get what you deserve if you upgrade. It is likely to be unstable, incompatible and insecure for some time and offers basically no additional value.

Who cares what OS you use?  It's only the applications that matter.

I'm still on Win2K for my main desktops.  But regardless that Microsoft continues to support Win2K, and it's perfectly adequate for my needs, Adobe's newest Photoshop CS3 requires XP.  Ugh!  Like I want to give Microsoft $400-500 bucks on top of Adobe's upgrade fees just for the pleasure of running CS3?  Frankly, that sucks.

And if I can get CS2 (and eventually CS3) running on Ubuntu Linux, then I would drop this windows crap in a heartbeat.  I hear there is a solution for running CS2 natively on Linux (using WINE).  Have to investigate that further. Then again, CS3 may not have enough value to make it worth upgrading.  Have to see.

And as the installation instructions said:

"Install Windows 2000 or better".....so I installed Linux! ;-)
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John.Murray
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« Reply #55 on: February 13, 2007, 11:08:38 PM »
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Now that Vista  and OS/X are essentally running on the same hardware - direct comparisond are inevitable - this series is balanced and informative:

http://blogs.zdnet.com/topic/Vista-Mac+Showdown.html


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I won't touch Vista for a long time, and with any luck, never. Until SP1 is released, you get what you deserve if you upgrade. It is likely to be unstable, incompatible and insecure for some time and offers basically no additional value.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100718\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Actually, I'm well impressed with Vista to date!  After seeing the first "patch tuesday" go by after the official release I show:

4 Updates to Vista, none Critical - the most serious being a user notification issue regarding reporting of application errors to Microsoft.

All the rest of the updates are a/v/spyware defs and tools - the snapshot below shows all updates to my home system installed on Novemember 17th - when Vista was released to developers.

It is important to note that Vista's codebase is Windows Server 2003, *not* Windows XP.  Server 2003 has had an excellent security track record to date

Finally - that updated Dell 2407WP ICM file definition results in the display *still* being to damn bright :/

Regards - John
« Last Edit: February 13, 2007, 11:24:22 PM by Joh.Murray » Logged

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