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Author Topic: Hy6 vs H3D - Buyer's eval process  (Read 67623 times)
marc gerritsen
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« Reply #180 on: March 05, 2007, 06:14:23 PM »
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Marc,  Dumb question.  What is DAC?  Thx
Marc

to not know is not being dumb

DAC
The DAC tool corrects inherent errors introduced by the lens. Not only chromatic aberration is corrected as before but now distortion imperfections are removed as well. Corrections can be carried out on images shot with H-lenses on an H3D, H2D or an H2 in combination with a Hasselblad CF/CFH back. The function works by processing the specific lens, aperture and focusing distance data that are stored in the files.

http://www.hasselblad.se/promotions/newsle...distortion.aspx
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Graham Mitchell
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« Reply #181 on: March 05, 2007, 06:16:20 PM »
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I have been on the sinar forum and asked a few questions, but I was most surprised at the low volume of questions being asked, an indication of dwindling interest in the camera?

Speaking for myself, I asked a lot of questions late last year and feel that I know what to expect pretty well now. There have been several major magazine articles on the Hy6 as well as information on various web sources, Photokina, etc. I think a lot of people are just waiting to hear that the first Hy6 has hit the shop shelf, and the price.
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Graham Mitchell - www.graham-mitchell.com
James Russell
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« Reply #182 on: March 05, 2007, 06:47:27 PM »
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Speaking for myself, I asked a lot of questions late last year and feel that I know what to expect pretty well now. There have been several major magazine articles on the Hy6 as well as information on various web sources, Photokina, etc. I think a lot of people are just waiting to hear that the first Hy6 has hit the shop shelf, and the price.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104898\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


If your happy with Sinar or Leaf and are exactly 100% sure that Sinar is the "film" you want to shoot your entire career then the HY6 will probably work for you.

Me, I've seen all of these companies go back and forth.  First Phase, then Leaf, now Phase etc., and each one is just one bad batch of sensors, or one wrong software decision away from being passed.

Personally I want the option to put any film I want on any camera without cords, adapters and workarounds and I want a variety of lenses beyond the given 35, 45, 80, 140, 210.

You see it on this forum all the time the number of photogrpahers that continue to use or try to use RZ's, Contax, Hasselblad V's, even fuji 680's because they like the camera and want what that system gives them.

Also, you have a lot more faith in these cameras than I do.  Out of the 14 professional digital cameras I have owned which covers 5 brands only two have come out of the box working as advertised so I must assume that any new camera and back combination that hits the market brand new, must have a few glitches that have to be "beta tested" out of them before they are ready for large pressured production.

Given all of this, if the Sinar/Leaf HY6 is going to have a chance it better have a lot of product in the pipeline and a lot of support.

Today I was at Calumet New York and they had that big Sinar camera that looks like a huge 35mm.  It was on the shelf with no back and nobody really knew the price, the back that worked with it or what lenses were available and how or if the complete system could be purchased today.

No photographer I know will risk there career on a system that is only half on the shelf, especially one that doesn't offer any backup from rental.

Knowing this if Sinar's HY6 is going to be fully adopted they must do a better job of getting the product out there.

I hope the HY6 is successful and I hope it makes other manufacturer's step up and make more cameras with more options, but until I can walk across the hall of a rental studio and pick up an extra lens it's not there yet.

JR
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pss
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« Reply #183 on: March 05, 2007, 07:13:39 PM »
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Today I was at Calumet New York and they had that big Sinar camera that looks like a huge 35mm.  It was on the shelf with no back and nobody really knew the price, the back that worked with it or what lenses were available and how or if the complete system could be purchased today.

JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104907\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

checking out the sinar M james? as far as i know it only takes sinar backs, the price is something like 15000 for body, prism, one lens.....and each additional lens is somewhere between 6000 and 12000....but i think it takes 35mm nikon lenses...makes a lot of sense with that large sensor....oh and it syncs at 1/100th....i guess no leaf shutters....now there is a system that is really well thought out....
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thsinar
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« Reply #184 on: March 05, 2007, 07:36:03 PM »
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Dear Paul,

I would like to correct some little mistakes and incorrections about the Sinar m:

- The Sinaron Digital AF lenses are priced between US$ 3'280.- and 6'300.- (not 6'000.- to 12'000.-!)
- Yes, it takes 35mm Nikon lenses: the Sinar m was out (and sold) at the time of the 6 & 11 MPx sensors, and made a lot of sense for some.
- Sinar has not "thought" this camera to hit the fashion/portrait/location photography market, never.

- The camera is in fact a system which integrates the Sinar m in the p2/p3 studio system: it is used mainly in big car photography studios (e.g. Toyota Studios in Nagoya = 8 large studios of each 2'500 SQM with each 4 working places), in Museums and Libraries and other large in-house reproduction places: and it sells well in this market (and it happens that I just got an order for 2 systems on p3 for China 1 hour ago).

- We never claimed that the Sinar m is a system thought out for the market we speak about on this tread, nor in the rental studios or rental places.

Thanks for your understanding and best regards,
Thierry

Quote
checking out the sinar M james? as far as i know it only takes sinar backs, the price is something like 15000 for body, prism, one lens.....and each additional lens is somewhere between 6000 and 12000....but i think it takes 35mm nikon lenses...makes a lot of sense with that large sensor....oh and it syncs at 1/100th....i guess no leaf shutters....now there is a system that is really well thought out....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104913\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
« Last Edit: March 05, 2007, 08:00:01 PM by thsinar » Logged

Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #185 on: March 05, 2007, 09:14:59 PM »
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Dear Paul,

I would like to correct some little mistakes and incorrections about the Sinar m:

-
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104918\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Theiry,

I'm not dissing the Sinar M, heck I'm not dissing Calumet, but it has to be doing neither of you any good to have a very expesnive camera sitting on the shelf of a New York dealer, without any support service, information, or accessories, much less a digital back.

Think about it this way.  A photographer migrating from film to digital walks into Calumet and picks up this hand held camera, the M. First asks about price, lenses, digital backs, availability, software, rentals, backup, service and upgrade policies.

Let's say he gets his answers and is told well, the Camera and a few lenses and a back are around 45 thousand.  Then he picks up a 1ds2 and asks about the same, with a price of uh,  . . . $7,000.

Which direction do you think the photographer is going to go and better yet when it comes time to step up to a different platform what impression did the Sinar give the photographer?

I wonder why Calumet or Sinar even has this camera on a store shelf.

JR
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thsinar
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« Reply #186 on: March 05, 2007, 09:24:41 PM »
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Dear James,

No harm at all.

I totally agree with you on this, and am asking myself what this camera is doing there, respectively why one cannot give reliable information on it. Unfortunately we do and cannot have control on all this in the market, and rely on information from guys like you to try to change it. I bet such things also happen with other brands in some other places, which isn't an excuse at all, I admit.

I shall forward to the person in charge.

Thank you for your advice.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
Theiry,

I'm not dissing the Sinar M, heck I'm not dissing Calumet, but it has to be doing neither of you any good to have a very expesnive camera sitting on the shelf of a New York dealer, without any support service, information, or accessories, much less a digital back.

Think about it this way. A photographer migrating from film to digital walks into Calumet and picks up this hand held camera, the M. First asks about price, lenses, digital backs, availability, software, rentals, backup, service and upgrade policies.

Let's say he gets his answers and is told well, the Camera and a few lenses and a back are around 45 thousand. Then he picks up a 1ds2 and asks about the same, with a price of uh, . . . $7,000.

Which direction do you think the photographer is going to go and better yet when it comes time to step up to a different platform what impression did the Sinar give the photographer?

I wonder why Calumet or Sinar even has this camera on a store shelf.

JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104930\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
« Last Edit: March 05, 2007, 09:25:16 PM by thsinar » Logged

Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #187 on: March 05, 2007, 11:32:05 PM »
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« Last Edit: March 05, 2007, 11:42:45 PM by BJNY » Logged

Guillermo
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« Reply #188 on: March 06, 2007, 07:44:19 AM »
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If your happy with Sinar or Leaf and are exactly 100% sure that Sinar is the "film" you want to shoot your entire career then the HY6 will probably work for you.

Me, I've seen all of these companies go back and forth.  First Phase, then Leaf, now Phase etc., and each one is just one bad batch of sensors, or one wrong software decision away from being passed.

Personally I want the option to put any film I want on any camera without cords, adapters and workarounds and I want a variety of lenses beyond the given 35, 45, 80, 140, 210.

You see it on this forum all the time the number of photogrpahers that continue to use or try to use RZ's, Contax, Hasselblad V's, even fuji 680's because they like the camera and want what that system gives them.

Also, you have a lot more faith in these cameras than I do.  Out of the 14 professional digital cameras I have owned which covers 5 brands only two have come out of the box working as advertised so I must assume that any new camera and back combination that hits the market brand new, must have a few glitches that have to be "beta tested" out of them before they are ready for large pressured production.

Given all of this, if the Sinar/Leaf HY6 is going to have a chance it better have a lot of product in the pipeline and a lot of support.

Today I was at Calumet New York and they had that big Sinar camera that looks like a huge 35mm.  It was on the shelf with no back and nobody really knew the price, the back that worked with it or what lenses were available and how or if the complete system could be purchased today.

No photographer I know will risk there career on a system that is only half on the shelf, especially one that doesn't offer any backup from rental.

Knowing this if Sinar's HY6 is going to be fully adopted they must do a better job of getting the product out there.

I hope the HY6 is successful and I hope it makes other manufacturer's step up and make more cameras with more options, but until I can walk across the hall of a rental studio and pick up an extra lens it's not there yet.

JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104907\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

James,

Just curious...which 2 cameras came out of the box working as advertised?

DC
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James Russell
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« Reply #189 on: March 06, 2007, 08:38:56 AM »
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James,

Just curious...which 2 cameras came out of the box working as advertised?

DC
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104988\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Canon 1ds (original) and Phase P-30.

Both I consider the standard that all others should be judged.

JR
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Caracalla
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« Reply #190 on: March 06, 2007, 09:05:07 AM »
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Canon 1ds (original) and Phase P-30.

Both I consider the standard that all others should be judged.

JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104992\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I highly agree.

Regards
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pss
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« Reply #191 on: March 06, 2007, 12:11:48 PM »
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Dear Paul,

I would like to correct some little mistakes and incorrections about the Sinar m:

- The Sinaron Digital AF lenses are priced between US$ 3'280.- and 6'300.- (not 6'000.- to 12'000.-!)
- Yes, it takes 35mm Nikon lenses: the Sinar m was out (and sold) at the time of the 6 & 11 MPx sensors, and made a lot of sense for some.
- Sinar has not "thought" this camera to hit the fashion/portrait/location photography market, never.

- The camera is in fact a system which integrates the Sinar m in the p2/p3 studio system: it is used mainly in big car photography studios (e.g. Toyota Studios in Nagoya = 8 large studios of each 2'500 SQM with each 4 working places), in Museums and Libraries and other large in-house reproduction places: and it sells well in this market (and it happens that I just got an order for 2 systems on p3 for China 1 hour ago).

- We never claimed that the Sinar m is a system thought out for the market we speak about on this tread, nor in the rental studios or rental places.

Thanks for your understanding and best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104918\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
thierry...that is great news about the prices.....now somebody has to inform B&H about them, because that is where i got them....btw: the only price info i could find....
last time i checked the prices were even higher....i also looked at the camera when i looked at the emotin back, got a demo on from the local sinar dealer...at that point the 80mm retailed for more then 8000$.....
i understand that the camera plays well with the P system...great...i just don't understand why anyone would build a MF camera body with a built in shutter stuck at 1/100 sync, ESPECIALLY if it meant to be an addition with the P system, where you probably already have in lens shutters....
but i am happy it sells well....
i understand that integration like this is a great hting...look at my htreads, one of the reasons i think the rollei6000/Hy6 is so great is the complete integration with the Xact system....everything interchangeable....of course at a fraction of the price of a sinarM&P system and 1/1000 sync.....
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thsinar
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« Reply #192 on: March 06, 2007, 06:03:15 PM »
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Dear Paul,

Alright, thanks for the info: I shall forward to the responsible about your price indications.

As for the Sinar m and 1/100 sync speed: most (if not all) are using the "m" with digital lenses mount on CAB/CMV lenses (full or semi-automatic controlled).

Thanks for your thoughts about the Rollei 600x/Hy6: I have read it.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
thierry...that is great news about the prices.....now somebody has to inform B&H about them, because that is where i got them....btw: the only price info i could find....
last time i checked the prices were even higher....i also looked at the camera when i looked at the emotin back, got a demo on from the local sinar dealer...at that point the 80mm retailed for more then 8000$.....
i understand that the camera plays well with the P system...great...i just don't understand why anyone would build a MF camera body with a built in shutter stuck at 1/100 sync, ESPECIALLY if it meant to be an addition with the P system, where you probably already have in lens shutters....
but i am happy it sells well....
i understand that integration like this is a great hting...look at my htreads, one of the reasons i think the rollei6000/Hy6 is so great is the complete integration with the Xact system....everything interchangeable....of course at a fraction of the price of a sinarM&P system and 1/1000 sync.....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105033\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #193 on: March 06, 2007, 06:20:26 PM »
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As for the Sinar m and 1/100 sync speed: most (if not all) are using the "m" with digital lenses mount on CAB/CMV lenses
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105107\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Which means what ?? Full synch ??

If this is the case you Sinar guys are craaazy not to make this very clear because I for one just wrote of that system as soon as I saw the dreaded word
" 100s "

What about with HASS V lenses ??

SMM
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Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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« Reply #194 on: March 06, 2007, 07:35:22 PM »
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Which means what ?? Full synch ??

If this is the case you Sinar guys are craaazy not to make this very clear because I for one just wrote of that system as soon as I saw the dreaded word
" 100s "

What about with HASS V lenses ??

SMM
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105110\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

i am a little confused now as well.....the 1/100 sync is with all lenses made for the M and of course for the nikon lenses as well.....i guess if you attach it to the back of a P and use the front shutter you get faster sync? what is the advantage of putting it on the P compared to simply using the P? as long as i use the M body i use the rear shutter which syncs at 1/100.....can i use view camera lenses directly on the M? i seriously doubt that....i just don't understand the advantage of a handheld system that relies on a rear shutter if handheld and why make it handheld if the prominent use is in studio and again especially there, why put in a rear shutter?
i actually was superexcited when that thing was announced...seemed like the ultimate open system, use all kind of lenses, totally modular....turns out it only takes  sinar backs, the costs are from a different planet and the 1/100......i actually got a demo on it..handles very well....i mean it is very big, but not too bad.....if it would take phase backs and the lenses had built in shutters.....definitely interesting....
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mattlap2
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« Reply #195 on: March 06, 2007, 08:56:26 PM »
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i am a little confused now as well.....the 1/100 sync is with all lenses made for the M and of course for the nikon lenses as well.....i guess if you attach it to the back of a P and use the front shutter you get faster sync? what is the advantage of putting it on the P compared to simply using the P? as long as i use the M body i use the rear shutter which syncs at 1/100.....can i use view camera lenses directly on the M? i seriously doubt that....i just don't understand the advantage of a handheld system that relies on a rear shutter if handheld and why make it handheld if the prominent use is in studio and again especially there, why put in a rear shutter?
i actually was superexcited when that thing was announced...seemed like the ultimate open system, use all kind of lenses, totally modular....turns out it only takes  sinar backs, the costs are from a different planet and the 1/100......i actually got a demo on it..handles very well....i mean it is very big, but not too bad.....if it would take phase backs and the lenses had built in shutters.....definitely interesting....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105123\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Well first let me make one statement.   It is my understanding that the M camera was offered as a platform to more than one digital back company other than Sinar.    They declined to make backs for the platform.    So it isn't Sinar that was making a closed system, but it works out that way because nobody else wanted to make a back for it.   All of the digital back companies had other priorities.

The M camera system does some very specialized things very well.    On the P3 it served as a high speed shutter and allows functions such as auto-bracketing and total remote control from the computer.

As a stand alone camera with the nikon or hasselblad module it allows a small compact camera used for catalog work without movements.   It still gives you live video and other camera functions.

With the autofocus Zeiss lenses it serves as a hand holdable camera or can be put into areas that you could not put a Human being.  With the zeiss lenses you can focus remotely from the computer via the firewire connection.   I have at least 2 customers that are using it specifically for that reason.    Both use it in lab situations where it is dangerous for a human photographer to be.   They have a motorized pan tilt head and can focus wherever they need to.  

I realize the system is not for everyone and it never really was designed to be.  It is part of the modular thinking that Sinar has been known for for many decades.    Just more tools to be put into the photographers hands to be used to create ....

Matt LaPointe
Sinar Bron Imaging
National Sales Support Specialist
(219) 670-9905
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thsinar
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« Reply #196 on: March 06, 2007, 10:22:24 PM »
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Thanks Matt, for the precisions!

I was on the way to write more details about the Sinar m system, and explain, since some seem to criticize it as a camera (however, critic is welcome and constructive).

But you have explained it well and perfectly, what the system can do: it is not only a camera or a shutter.

In addition to your info I would like to add:

- vibration free shutter (for multishot)
- focus trap
- automatic WB, Default Profiles , Kelvin Adjustable in 50K increments
- single / automatically controled multishot (vibration free)
- most other functions available as they are on any MF camera
- availability battery pack with 10 hours and/or 5000 images capacity
- powered by battery grip, external 12V battery or external 12V PS

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
The M camera system does some very specialized things very well.

I realize the system is not for everyone and it never really was designed to be. It is part of the modular thinking that Sinar has been known for for many decades. Just more tools to be put into the photographers hands to be used to create ....

Matt LaPointe
Sinar Bron Imaging
National Sales Support Specialist
(219) 670-9905
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105131\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
« Last Edit: March 06, 2007, 10:25:01 PM by thsinar » Logged

Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #197 on: March 07, 2007, 12:37:03 AM »
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Thanks Matt, for the precisions!

I was on the way to write more details about the Sinar m system, and explain, since some seem to criticize it as a camera (however, critic is welcome and constructive).

But you have explained it well and perfectly, what the system can do: it is not only a camera or a shutter.


[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105145\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

So the synch speed is 100s with all lenses ??[/color]

the quote

"As for the Sinar m and 1/100 sync speed: most (if not all) are using the "m" with digital lenses mount on CAB/CMV lenses (full or semi-automatic controlled)"

Makes it look like that may not be the case - I dont understand - this quote seems to imply that maybe it sysnchs fater with these lenses

YES or NO will do !

----

I am not trying to criticise your system I am just trying to gather information - I was very exited too

This product could appeal to me if that were the case (decent flash on some lenses) even though it is costly

Because I have a P2 a sinar back and nikkors from 14 trhough to 600 and Nikon dont make a FF back

Even though it is expensive it could stack up after disposal of my D200, SLRn H1 HC lenses etc

And it hints at using the full area of Nikkor lenses which I know to be way larger than 35mm chip size although not covering 22mp

Trouble is I need some decent synch somewhere in my gear portfolio

SMM
« Last Edit: March 07, 2007, 01:04:09 AM by Morgan_Moore » Logged

Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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« Reply #198 on: March 07, 2007, 12:53:24 AM »
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- We never claimed that the Sinar m is a system thought out for the market we speak about on this trhead, nor in the rental studios or rental places.


[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Quote
I realize the system is not for everyone and it never really was designed to be.  It is part of the modular thinking that Sinar has been known for for many decades.    Just more tools to be put into the photographers hands to be used to create ....


[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105131\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

These quotes do seem a little bit of a turnaround compared to to this Sinar press release at the time of launch

=================

Objective ..provide the photographer with maximum flexibility.

It is designed to make possible.. every assignment simply.

That makes it .. effective in every situation.

(The) system is .. the right product for all professional photographers in every .. situation

=================

[a href=\"http://www.eyelike.de/cms_documentdir/051124release_Sinar_m_english.pdf]http://www.eyelike.de/cms_documentdir/0511...r_m_english.pdf[/url]

That doesnt seem to be saying  this is our new system for musems and car photographers and those working in dangerous factories !
« Last Edit: March 07, 2007, 01:00:53 AM by Morgan_Moore » Logged

Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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« Reply #199 on: March 07, 2007, 01:18:19 AM »
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thierry...that is great news about the prices.....now somebody has to inform B&H about them, because that is where i got them....btw: the only price info i could find....
last time i checked the prices were even higher....i also looked at the camera when i looked at the emotin back, got a demo on from the local sinar dealer...at that point the 80mm retailed for more then 8000$.....
i understand that the camera plays well with the P system...great...i just don't understand why anyone would build a MF camera body with a built in shutter stuck at 1/100 sync, ESPECIALLY if it meant to be an addition with the P system, where you probably already have in lens shutters....
but i am happy it sells well....
i understand that integration like this is a great hting...look at my htreads, one of the reasons i think the rollei6000/Hy6 is so great is the complete integration with the Xact system....everything interchangeable....of course at a fraction of the price of a sinarM&P system and 1/1000 sync.....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105033\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

This is one place where I would not trust B&H to price this.    B&H is not a Sinar Digital Dealer.   They are Sinar Conventional, but have never had the ability to order or sell Sinar digital products.  

You can look at our dealer listing at www.sinarbron.com.
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