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Author Topic: Hy6 vs H3D - Buyer's eval process  (Read 64520 times)
heinrichvoelkel
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« Reply #20 on: February 06, 2007, 07:59:22 PM »
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Was this a 6x6 film back? Or....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99497\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Or what? I don't get it.

In all the pictures up to now you see the 645 film back, but there will be a 6x6 film back later...

Okay, now, you where thinking 6x6 digital, hahahaha. They would have never told me that....


Regrds
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Ethan Schoonover
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« Reply #21 on: February 06, 2007, 10:58:05 PM »
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first: the Hy6 is a very logical step up from the 6008Af, it takes the lenses some backs and some accessories....as far as i know the  H3 still has the freeze problem with the battery....the Hy6 V1 will probably be a more mature product then the h1 was....and i am sure there will some glitches with the Hy6

but that is not the point....
this is your first step into DMF? have you handled any MF camera before? there are several other systems out there, all of them handle very differently and MF handles VERY differently from SLR!!!

this is one of these posts that just leaves me scratching my head....an in-depth analysis of a system i haven't tried compared to a system that does not exist yet....great...a lot to learn from that...a great philosophical discussion? go out and play with a mamiya...take some pics...

how can any base their decision only on "what michael says"?
image quality is a tie? have you ever seen the quality? do you know how the schneider or zeiss lenses compare to the hass lenses? how the backs compare?
HOW THE SOFTWARE COMPARES? WORKFLOW?

there is no one system that is better then the others...number don't mean anything....there are only personal preferences and how willing someone is to put up with the shortcomings of the chosen system...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99488\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Well, I definitely appreciate the concern you're showing, but not to worry. I have shot MF and have used MF digital previously. I have processed MF digital for other photogs as part of larger shoots and myself for smaller test runs.

And although I'm very confident in my own experience to date and my own adaptability, no matter how prepared or unprepared I am, things will always be different once I integrate a Sinar/Leaf/H3D into my daily production. There is always a learning curve that I'll have to climb, whether it's new hardware, new software, etc.

Regarding Michael, I'm certainly not basing this entire decision on his article, but it was without a doubt the post that woke me up to the issues of a closed system. That's one of the reasons I love reading LL, both the articles and this forum. Like any journalism or editorial publication, it's not there to outsource my own critical reasoning, but it does open my eyes to possibilities, information and opinion. I applaud Michael for what he's done with the site. It's an excellent resource.

Again, thanks for the concern and I hope this reassures you I'm not a complete loon.
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Graham Mitchell
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« Reply #22 on: February 06, 2007, 11:40:27 PM »
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I talked to Franke&Heidecke today on the phone. first about some service stuff for my 6008, then I asked about a true 6x6 back for the camera. They guy told me, they are working on one.

If this is true, the concept of the hy6 gets even better for me...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99494\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I believe they announced a few months ago that the Hy6 would have a 6x6 film back and a 645 fim back (rotatable) with the motors in the film backs, to save on camera size and weight when being used for digital.
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« Reply #23 on: February 07, 2007, 12:11:35 AM »
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I believe they announced a few months ago that the Hy6 would have a 6x6 film back and a 645 fim back (rotatable) with the motors in the film backs, to save on camera size and weight when being used for digital.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99577\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Absolutely true, Graham, thanks!

Thierry
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #24 on: February 07, 2007, 12:26:07 AM »
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35mm  There is no time table

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99528\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Surely the system is held back incredibly by a lack of 35mm if I understand clearly

Anyone considering this system should think about that unnanounced timescale big time

Think about making this lens..

This will be a problemo to make surely having to be retro focal enough to clear a 66 mirror - this is not a geometry that anyone has done before EVER

Blad only managed 35 with 645

Blad can only do a 28 for 645 times 0.9 (and one assume it is pretty wonky before correction)

Mamiya have been trying for YEARS to do 645 28

So what chance a 66 coverage 28 being in the pipeline that can clear a 66 mirror and has little enough distortion to be able to be used on film - very little I would imagine

And rollie cant do a  'DX' version becuse they still have to clear that catflap mirror and rely on the full coverage to provide both orientations

It becomes clear that blad may have been incredibly shrewd designing around the size of existant chips (bet the H4d has a smaller mirror and leads to an even wider lens)

Evaluatiing a 28mm system vs a 40mm system I know which system I would go for

And UK robertwhite lists the MF 40 at £2,485 ($5000?) so what will a 35 or even a 28 cost...

For people who need a decent wide surely may be trouble ahead on the HY6 front

Pure speculation I know but it has just become apparent to me that this system may be a bit useless as a general system until big chips hit home relying on switching to alpa for wide will marginalise the system IMO and a marginal system wont get the market share, rental stock and second hand rigs to buy from bankrupt wedding photographers - this wide thing could kill it right off - why didnt Jenoptic rise contax from the dead instead

Clearing that mirror is an extra 15mm of stress for thier designers that will surely make them lose many races

The solution could of coure be in a mirror up lense as was the case with super wide nikkors like the 8mm fish and a funky viewfinder on the flashmount


SMM

Shame the blad goons locked my out of the 28 - it wont make me buy thier back but it does lose them the revenue of selling me one
« Last Edit: February 07, 2007, 01:00:03 AM by Morgan_Moore » Logged

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« Reply #25 on: February 07, 2007, 12:57:11 AM »
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Surely the system is held back incredibly by a lack of 35mm if I understand clearly

Anyone considering this system should think about that unnanounced timescale big time

Think about making this lens..

This will be a problemo to make surely having to be retro focal enough to clear a 66 mirror - this is not a geometry that anyone has done before EVER

Blad only managed 35 with 645

Blad can only do a 28 for 645 times 0.9 (and one assume it is pretty wonky before correction)

Mamiya have been trying for YEARS to do 645 28

So what chance a 66 coverage 28 being in the pipeline that can clear a 66 mirror and has little enough distortion to be able to be used on film - very little I would imagine

And rollie cant do a  'DX' version becuse they still have to clear that catflap mirror and rely on the full coverage to provide both orientations

It becomes clear that blad may have been incredibly shrewd designing around the size of existant chips (bet the H4d has a smaller mirror and leads to an even wider lens)

Evaluatiing a 28mm system vs a 40mm system I know which system I would go for

And UK robertwhite lists the MF 40 at £2,485 ($5000?) so what will a 35 or even a 28 cost...

For people who need a decent wide surely may be trouble ahead on the HY6 front

Pure speculation I know but it has just become apparent to me that this system may be a bit useless as a general system until big chips hit home relying on switching to alpa for wide will marginalise the system IMO

Clearing that mirror is an extra 15mm of stress for thier designers that will surely make them lose many races

The solution could of coure be in a mirror up lense as was the case with super wide nikkors like the 8mm fish and a funky viewfinder on the flashmount
SMM

Shame the blad goons locked my out of the 28 - it wont make me buy thier back but it does lose them the revenue of selling me one
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99583\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Dear Morgan,

I am not a lens specialist and cannot speak here, and you are probably right with the difficulty of such a task, to build a new 35mm covering 6x6.

However, I would like to remind that the Hy6 project, with all the planed new lenses and accessories has not just started during the last Photokina, when we annouced it: it is a project having matured since years.

Although there is no precise timetable for the release of such a 35mm AFD, I have total trust in our product manager, when he tells me that it will be shortly released after the release of all the other lenses mentioned, whatever shortly means.

However, one can never predict the problems in advance. And I also hope that you won't put me at the point of your gun in the future!  

Best regards,
Thierry
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« Reply #26 on: February 07, 2007, 01:25:09 AM »
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Although there is no precise timetable for the release of such a 35mm AFD
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99584\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

But blad will sell you a 28 TODAY and you guys dont even list it at a futre possiblilty

My concern (for you guys) is that many buyers particularly in the middle ground who wont consider a second solution for wide will just go blad and make the system ubiqutos (sp?)

Those middle ground guys (wedding portrait etc)  are the ones who buy a LOT of kit

They are the same guys who provide me with second hand gear as they change every week

Its like canon V nikon  - I wouldnt touch Nikon now without FF even though nikon are good for 95% real life situations -  95% is not good enough

( I am heavily invested in nikon and constantly frustated by thier tinky litlte chip that has ruined my lenses)

The Sinar M was suited for 90% of my uses but the 60th flash synch made it no go for 10% of them

Hassy hits home 100% then and 100% now

Wide lense decent flash synch and passable AF - the only things that matter?

even though I dont like my blad  (for some reason - maybe the colour!) it is still the business tool for me and will remain that way

Sinars 'system' seems a right mess- you have a pile of different lens systems and two nearly ran MF bodies

The P3 should run seamlessly into the HY6 and you should be able to use HY6 lenses on the P3 - they have the image circle for movements on a 645 (x .9) chip at least they must do they cover 66 thats 15mm of unsued rise

I could accept a lack of wide on the mirror bit of the system if it were a system

I would jump to a system that offered super wide and movements (like the P3) and leaf flash synch and for longer lenses offered the convieniece of 'mirror' shooting - did you get the rights to the Xact too .. will HY6 lenses work with that

SMM
« Last Edit: February 07, 2007, 01:37:57 AM by Morgan_Moore » Logged

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« Reply #27 on: February 07, 2007, 01:31:29 AM »
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And UK robertwhite lists the MF 40 at £2,485 ($5000?) so what will a 35 or even a 28 cost...

It's a stunning lens, btw.

Quote
For people who need a decent wide surely may be trouble ahead on the HY6 front

Yes and no. Your point regarding the technical difficulties can't be faulted, but if you need really wide angles there is a simple solution.

The digital back can be put on one of many view cameras and used in conjunction with 24mm, 28mm or 35mm lenses.

Advantages:

- the image quality of these Rodenstock/Schneider Digitar lenses is superb
- you can go WIDER than any MF lens
- you also have tilt/shift possibilities, which is more useful to any architectural photographers anyway
- this solution is already on the shelf

Result: no-one will be 'stuck'. This is what I plan to do to cover the ultra-wide end. Since when did any camera "do it all" anyway?
« Last Edit: February 07, 2007, 01:34:27 AM by foto-z » Logged

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« Reply #28 on: February 07, 2007, 01:31:48 AM »
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But blad will sell you a 28 TODAY and you guys dont even list it at a futre possiblilty

My concern (for you guys) is that many buyers particularly in the middle ground who wont consider a second solution for wide will just go blad and make the system ubiqutos (sp?)

Those middle ground guys (wedding portrait etc)  are the ones who buy a LOT of kit

They are the same guys who provide me with second hand gear as they change every week

Its like canon V nikon  - I wouldnt touch Nikon now without FF even though nikon are good for 95% real life situations -  95% is not good enough

( I am heavily invested in nikon and constantly frustated by thier tinky litlte chip that has ruined my lenses)

The Sinar M was suited for 90% of my uses but the 60th flash synch made it no go for 10% of them

Hassy hits home 100% then and 100% now

Wide lense decent flash synch and passable AF - the only things that matter?

even though I dont like my blad  (for some reason - maybe the colour!) it is still the business tool for me and will remain that way

Sinars 'system' seems a right mess- you have a pile of different lens systems and two nearly ran MF bodies

The P3 should run seamlessly into the HY6 and you should be able to use HY6 lenses on the P3 - they have the image circle for movements on a 645 (x .9) chip at least they must do they cover 66 thats 15mm of unsued rise

I could accept a lack of wide on the mirror bit of the system if it were a system

SMM
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99591\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

hi again, Morgan (or Sam?),

Right, we don't have all now and don't pretend to have it all: we have 2 hands, like any others, and doing our best to satisfy as many photographers as possible.

Our P3 does not integrate the Hy 6 lenses: it is a good idea, and nobody has said that it won't be the case in the future. But again, we have 2 hands! We never start 2 or 3 projects at the same time, rather one after the other, to avoid the mess you are speaking about.

Now, the future will certainly tell, but be assured that we are commited to our product(s) and always pushing our limits to reach the best possible for our customers.

Best regards,
Thierry
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« Reply #29 on: February 07, 2007, 01:33:26 AM »
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Sam,
the Rollei X-Act2 has the facility to use the Rollei lens range.
Regards,
Willem.
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« Reply #30 on: February 07, 2007, 01:42:30 AM »
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Hassy hits home 100% then and 100% now

Well no camera ever hits 100%. Hass has a more limited range of lenses, which are slower then Rollie and have slower flash sync. For a long time they had no viewfinder options (is the WLF available yet?). The 28mm is the one ace up their sleeve, but not everyone needs a 28mm. Their bodies still lock up, and the 50-110mm lenses fall apart.

Definitely not a 100% camera. If it were, why would anyone buy anything else?
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« Reply #31 on: February 07, 2007, 01:51:01 AM »
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It's a stunning lens, btw.
Yes and no. Your point regarding the technical difficulties can't be faulted, but if you need really wide angles there is a simple solution.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99593\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Doing a group shot at a wedding a bellows camera is not a simple solution

Shooting rowers rowing thier boat a bellows camera is not a simple solution

Quote
- the image quality of these Rodenstock/Schneider Digitar lenses is superb
- you can go WIDER than any MF lens
- you also have tilt/shift possibilities, which is more useful to any architectural photographers anyway
- this solution is already on the shelf

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99593\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I know all about these lenses but there is no walkaround body that makes them useable - I just dont believe the junk ALPA spread about being able to guess focus (hand held close and at f4)

and cocking the shutter a bit 1880s too and all tha cables of electronic shutters is a bit 1990s

The HY6 would be highly attactive offered in conjunction with a rise fall mamia 7 style wide solution - but there isnt one


Quote
Since when did any camera "do it all" anyway?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99593\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Canon eos1 and film 14 2.8  -> 600 f4
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« Reply #32 on: February 07, 2007, 01:56:38 AM »
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Doing a group shot at a wedding a bellows camera is not a simple solution

Does this look hard to handle? Each to their own I suppose

 No camera has it all.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2007, 01:57:24 AM by foto-z » Logged

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« Reply #33 on: February 07, 2007, 01:59:07 AM »
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I don't think the Hy6 came about to copy the H1 series.

From what I've been told,the Hy6 is going to be a camera made in Germany  with
a modern German auto-focus lens system,however staying with the traditional 6x6 format.

The idea of a digiback that can rotate sounds great to me.
At I don't have to put the camera on it's side.

A lot of photographers don't like having to hold a camera (Mamiya, H1) on it's side.

Also there are a lot of shooters that still might like to use film,couple with the latest technology
and lenses.

Myself,I went the eMotion-75 route with the Gottschalt Ds-30 and Rodenstock HR lenses(28,35,60+100 HR)

When the Hy6 comes out I'll be getting a 50,80 and 150 lens selection for that.

It's an expensive time for some of us.

Cheers,
Willem.
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« Reply #34 on: February 07, 2007, 02:00:53 AM »
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Definitely not a 100% camera. If it were, why would anyone buy anything else?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99598\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I am not sure that persons starting from scratch will buy anything else !

Just like if I were starting from scratch in 35mm I would nt buy anything but canon

You are right the blad is severely limited particularly in the rise fall stakes and lense speed range cost look

And the 28 and future lenses wont work with my back (or yours) - hense my interest in a route 'out' of blad

I think that until a decent leica or mamiya7 type camera comes available to sort wide issues the blad will however remain the king system of leaf lenses with decent flash synch

SMM
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« Reply #35 on: February 07, 2007, 02:08:05 AM »
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Does this look hard to handle? Each to their own I suppose
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99602\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yes for the attached image it looks very hard to handle !

Quote
(canon) Not great resolution or colour. Slowish flash sync. Only a few good lenses. [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99602\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I within the limits of 35 canon film (less wide issues) did have it all


--------------------

And a further thought : the need for a system that does 'everything' is far stronger now in the digital age

considering the costs I used to happily run 35mm and 645 systems and for only a few hundered $ could have gone 45 too

What I cant afford is two backs
« Last Edit: February 07, 2007, 02:25:38 AM by Morgan_Moore » Logged

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« Reply #36 on: February 07, 2007, 02:38:06 AM »
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Myself,I went the eMotion-75 route with the Gottschalt Ds-30 and Rodenstock HR lenses(28,35,60+100 HR)

When the Hy6 comes out I'll be getting a 50,80 and 150 lens selection for that.

It's an expensive time for some of us.

Cheers,
Willem.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99603\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

And doesnt that make you angry ??

Knowing

you will have spent $000s on nearly duplicate focal lenght glass


That you own glass with a big enough image circle for rise and fall that you cant use on you view cam

I wouldnt own that duplication of glass on principal almost !

Your mate at gottchalt could save the day - get hy6 lenses working on his view camera

If your buddy with a CNC machine in his garage can do it why not the global might of jenoptic and sinar

The reason 'cos they dont talk to enough photographers. At least Thiery is here now - a start

It just saddens me all the R+D in the M and does anyone use it ??

All the time wasted on R+D, TTL flash and metering,  useless centerpoint AF and countless other rubbish bits of electronics  - havent these people heard of a histogram and looking at the screen or even through a nice bright viewfinder

All a camera is a a box to hold the lens in the right place in relation to the recording medium - preaferably with a mirror to see eactly what you are getting

We need one box with a mirror for 40 + lenses

And another box without a mirror for wides and rise fall but another realistic way of focusing and composing

Our lenses need to fit both boxes

The second box is missing

Until Sinar bring us the second box I think the blad will be the best single box to own and most important I think 1000s of others will agree

IMO There is space in the market for

canon : cheap one box

hassy : quality one box

sinar : qualiy two box solution with ultra wide, and rise capablilty

SMM
« Last Edit: February 07, 2007, 02:54:13 AM by Morgan_Moore » Logged

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« Reply #37 on: February 07, 2007, 02:48:27 AM »
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Morgan, have you looked at the Rollei X-ACT? It takes 6000 series lenses and puts them on a view camera. Seems to be what you are wishing for?
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« Reply #38 on: February 07, 2007, 02:58:38 AM »
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Morgan, have you looked at the Rollei X-ACT? It takes 6000 series lenses and puts them on a view camera. Seems to be what you are wishing for?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99608\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I think it a good solution for some

who makes owns it ??

spares distributors service??

Trouble is I want hand held

I want to be able to focus fast and accurate

I want phisical robustness that I can throw in my bag or have on my other shoulder if I could ever afford a second back

And inceidentally I already own a sinar view camera and sinar back and sinar have been trupeting about compatability since 1938 or whatever and they seem to have three sets of lenses on the go all at mega bucks and I need to buy a view camera from someone else - crazy

SMM
« Last Edit: February 07, 2007, 03:09:08 AM by Morgan_Moore » Logged

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« Reply #39 on: February 07, 2007, 03:09:05 AM »
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Blad only managed 35 with 645

Blad can only do a 28 for 645 times 0.9 (and one assume it is pretty wonky before correction)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99583\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The verdict on other forums are that the blad 28 is wonky before and ok/great after correction. My question now is, if blad needs DxO style software (DAC 1 & 2 in flexcolor) to correct this piece of glass... will sinar/leaf/rollei need this type of software to correct a 35 for a 6x6 mirror? And if so, how far have they come on the "software side of optics."

Quote
Hass has a more limited range of lenses, which are slower then Rollie and have slower flash sync.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99598\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
You can use V-series lenses on the H-sys. albeit it does turn the electronic wündercam into a cludgy mechanical thing of the past... And yes, they are slower on both speed and sync  

Quote
For a long time they had no viewfinder options (is the WLF available yet?).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99598\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
They started delivery last week here in Norway, my dealer recieved five, and Im number 6 on the list   (got my ImageBank though! Cool to be able to shoot untethered with the Linhof, but I havent got around to testing it thoroughly yet.)

Quote
The 28mm is the one ace up their sleeve, but not everyone needs a 28mm. Their bodies still lock up, and the 50-110mm lenses fall apart.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99598\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The rumoured shift/tilt lens from blad could be a killer if they get the DAC function in FlexColor to function with it. Two main dealers I have spoken to confirm it as being around the corner, but Hasselblad is as always silent on future releases. This piece of glass could also be an ace up their sleeve, if they get it right that is....

-axel
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