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Author Topic: HP Z3100 Problems with Colour Gamut  (Read 115467 times)
kers
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« Reply #120 on: February 21, 2007, 03:44:15 AM »
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The first thing I realized is that the media mode that you select is crucial. My initial test was done using the HP photo matte option. This target's chroma looked weak compared to a target from the epson. I reprinted it using the "Litho" and "Super HW coated" media types and found these to be much better. I built a profile and made a print.

At last a breakthrough- very nice, I thought that in the initial calibration the z3100 finds out how much ink the paper can take- But not so indeed, it is done earlier in the choice of paper.
Leaves the question wich paperchoice fits best.

I have reprofiled Epson Archival Matte paper in this way. I used to calibraste it as a "photo matte paper" and know I called it a "super heavyweight coated paper" the result is that now the z3100 uses much more ink on the paper.

This results in a very different gamut- see picture. The transparent is the "epson archival matte" called a HWC paper; in the solid part it is called a " Photo Matte paper "
[attachment=1901:attachment]
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Pieter Kers
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jpgentry
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« Reply #121 on: February 21, 2007, 09:47:06 PM »
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Looks better.  Do you have total volume figures as a number?  Still looks pretty small at the bottom though.  


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At last a breakthrough- very nice, I thought that in the initial calibration the z3100 finds out how much ink the paper can take- But not so indeed, it is done earlier in the choice of paper.
Leaves the question wich paperchoice fits best.

I have reprofiled Epson Archival Matte paper in this way. I used to calibraste it as a "photo matte paper" and know I called it a "super heavyweight coated paper" the result is that now the z3100 uses much more ink on the paper.

This results in a very different gamut- see picture. The transparent is the "epson archival matte" called a HWC paper; in the solid part it is called a " Photo Matte paper "
[attachment=1901:attachment]
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=102119\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
« Last Edit: February 21, 2007, 09:51:36 PM by jpgentry » Logged
marty m
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« Reply #122 on: February 21, 2007, 11:35:37 PM »
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Any news from anyone on the new firmware and whether it solves these problems?

Are we closer to a professional $4100 printer (for the 24" inch version) or still an amateur work in progress?

Has anyone received any updates on when the 24" Z3100 will ship?  

Not that I am in any hurry -- if HP is smart they have halted all shipments until they fix these issues in firmware and/or software.

Otherwise HP will go down the road of Canon, with entire web sites devoted to fixing all the problems.
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jpgentry
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« Reply #123 on: February 22, 2007, 12:09:14 AM »
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http://www.camerahobby.com/Digital_ColorMa...tComparison.htm

I just read a review of 3 profiling packages.  One was the gretag.  In the review this was stated:

"The two expensive suites produced profiles that were nearly identical in quality and while the Eye One Photo was a tiny bit better in shadow detail, it faltered in producing a red thatís really red, as opposed to deep, dark orange."

So in comparison to the Pulse and Print Fix Pro package the Gretag redition of red is a deep orange.  Just curious if anyone has ruled the profiling package out of the mix?

-Jonathan
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marty m
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« Reply #124 on: February 22, 2007, 12:22:51 AM »
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http://www.camerahobby.com/Digital_ColorMa...tComparison.htm

I just read a review of 3 profiling packages.  One was the gretag.  In the review this was stated:

"The two expensive suites produced profiles that were nearly identical in quality and while the Eye One Photo was a tiny bit better in shadow detail, it faltered in producing a red thatís really red, as opposed to deep, dark orange."

So in comparison to the Pulse and Print Fix Pro package the Gretag redition of red is a deep orange.  Just curious if anyone has ruled the profiling package out of the mix?

-Jonathan
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=102283\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I believe, but am not certain, that some of those who have the printer did try to profile it with outside packages and got the same results as on the Z3100 itself.  That's why the issue of profiles was ruled out, and the focus is on ink mixing and firmware.

But you'd have to read through the previous six pages to verify my statements.  I am responding from memory based on reading this thread in the last week!
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Panascape
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« Reply #125 on: February 22, 2007, 05:30:58 AM »
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I have used I1match and colorvision, Christopher has used Profilemaker. The problem is not with the profile and can be seen clearly on the unprofiled charts.

The fact is that currently the HPz3100 in many cases, for what ever reason (we have many suspicions ranging from colour mixing to problem with the ink set) cannot produce enough saturation in the primaries to facilitate the creation a successful full gamut profile.

Do not take my word on this but print uncelebrated, unprofiled targets from an Epson and the hp and compare the red primaries. The difference in saturation is extremely visible and that is a saturated as your reds are ever going to be using that chart to create a profile.

I find myself in the difficult position where I must echo Martyís sentiments that people should wait and see where this goes before ordering or taking delivery of z3100's
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BlasR
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« Reply #126 on: February 22, 2007, 05:39:46 AM »
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Before I got my Z3100 last week, a friend who got his two weeks earlier was complaining that his printer has a very narrow red gamut. This was in the back of my mind but my initial prints from my Z3100 seemed to be fine until today.

I got a job today from a client with very deep maroon coloured reds that fade to black. I printed it on my Epson 4000 which I know is properly calibrated and it looked great. Then I printed it on the Z3100 and the result was shocking, all the red was washed out and all the images were flat. (I canít post the images here due to the client not allowing it as it has not be run publicly yet)

I remember seeing this same problem last week when I tried using Epson Enhanced Matt in the z3100 but I just put this down to a paper incompatibility.

If I Softproof the image in CS2 (monitor calibrated with OPTIX XR pro) using absolute colormetric for the rendering intent,  the image with the Epson profile has about 4% of the image that is out of gamut, but with the z3100 profiles about 80% of the image is out of gamut.

This got me suspicious so I tried with other device profiles and got similar results with the z3100 always being by far the worst.

Next I printed out non colour managed IT8 charts on the 4000 and the z3100. The first noticeable difference is that the patches that should be closest to Red, Green and Blue are very washed out and desaturated on the z3100 with the red being more orangey yellow than red.

My assumption was that if the desaturated red was causing a problem then the green and blue should also. I took a variety of images with dark blues and greens and in every case there were substantial areas that were out of gamut for the z3100.

To check to see there were no head problems I printed a diagnostic print and I am confused as to why the red ink prints a light peachy colour, the blue ink prints purple and the green ink prints a lime green while the remaining inks print correctly.

This is really worrying me as I am the second person to come across this. My supplier has alerted HP but I was wondering if anyone else has seen this?

Thanks

Robert
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Robert, how are you doing with your problem in the red color? do you resolved the problem?. ,, I have been follow all the problems the people have ,,but I can't find out if you resolved your problems.
 I just got my z3100 44" but I'm looking for some space in my little office to install it, the printer is a monster.

Thank You

BlasR
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Panascape
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« Reply #127 on: February 22, 2007, 05:43:31 AM »
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Hi, the red problem is still and I have spoke to HP about it and will hopefully work with them to resolve it. I do think however unfortunately think it will take some time to get this issue sorted out.
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BlasR
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« Reply #128 on: February 22, 2007, 09:27:46 AM »
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Robert, please keep Us update

Thank You

BlasR
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Mussi_Spectraflow
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« Reply #129 on: February 22, 2007, 12:09:18 PM »
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Robert,

    When you are printing the non colormanaged charts what media settings are you using. I used the Litho Paper setting on enhanced matte and compared it to a chart I had printed from the 7800, and they look very very close. In fact in some areas the reds on the HP look like they have more chroma. The blues on the epson are what surprised me, they look a little stronger than the HP.
    On another topic, I DO think the profiling software has a lot to do with the quality of the finished print. There are noticable differences between Profiler and ProfileMaker. I've noticed differences in how transitions are handled, how blue is rendered, and a host of other minor differences. What I think matters much less is the device the color is measured with. The on boad spectro is very good, however the easy color profile creator is not as robust as the Pro color packages. That said the measurements from the HP can be imported into any program. I'm hoping for the possibility of using color port to create custom targets and then import the measurement into one of the profile creation packages we use.

Julian Mussi
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Julian Mussi

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madmanchan
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« Reply #130 on: February 22, 2007, 12:41:01 PM »
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Hi Julian, you can see what Bill Atkinson did with his color targets here:

http://homepage.mac.com/billatkinson/FileSharing2.html

See his targets FAQ.

The only problem with ColorPort is that you're limited to using a specific set of patches, as I recall. With MeasureTool (free) you can be more flexible, then export the results as LAB for import into profile making software (like PMPro or M Profiler)
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Panascape
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« Reply #131 on: February 22, 2007, 01:15:35 PM »
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Julian I agree that paper setting makes a difference as the different media settings put down ink differently. Unfortunately so far the unprofiled targets tell the same story, Epsonís saturation of the primaries is visibly better across all the media I have tested.

The limits I see on the target red patches, corresponds with the limits I see on the prints and when softproofing as the profile cannot produce more saturation than a media setting is giving it to work with. I agree that some packages may produce smoother profiles but at this stage i am only looking at 3 colours, primary red, green and blue.

 I have been using HM smooth fine art as my paper setting as suggested by HP. Christopher and I have suggested to HP that we conduct a controlled testing program using 4 papers with settings and conditions specified by HP and with the z3100 going up against an Epson 4000 and R2400. I will let you know what Hp comes back with.

To eliminate the profiling as a problem, I profiled the Epson4000 and the z3100 today, firstly using a colorvision printfix and then using the APS system with the HPís built in spectro.

Yes you can use the APS and the z3100 to profile prints from other devicesÖ

The profiles and the measurement files have been sent to HP for evaluation but in both cases the Epson produced far better reds than the HP. The greens and blues are also a problem but I am only focusing on the reds for now as they are the biggest problem.

I will be happy to mail you the profile sets and measurement files.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2007, 01:22:04 PM by Panascape » Logged
Mussi_Spectraflow
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« Reply #132 on: February 22, 2007, 01:23:25 PM »
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Hi Julian, you can see what Bill Atkinson did with his color targets here:

http://homepage.mac.com/billatkinson/FileSharing2.html

See his targets FAQ.

The only problem with ColorPort is that you're limited to using a specific set of patches, as I recall. With MeasureTool (free) you can be more flexible, then export the results as LAB for import into profile making software (like PMPro or M Profiler)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=102402\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

You can make custom patches with color port you just import the data from a text file, it creates the patch. Then you can print and measure.....what I think would be neat is if color port supported the HPZ's onboard spectro then you could use the printer lke a very large dtp70.
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Julian Mussi

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Panascape
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« Reply #133 on: February 22, 2007, 01:28:48 PM »
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Julian, i just compared HP's Litho realistic profile to the Epson profile I made today with the z3100's spectro and while the hp profile is better than some of the other paper settings it still has a long way to go to compete with the Epson even though the Epson was printing on what HP admts is not the best paper to test on.

This is the first time I have been able to test one of my Epson's profiles against HP's canned profiles without the profiling system being a consideration.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2007, 01:32:16 PM by Panascape » Logged
Mussi_Spectraflow
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« Reply #134 on: February 23, 2007, 02:16:18 PM »
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Julian, i just compared HP's Litho realistic profile to the Epson profile I made today with the z3100's spectro and while the hp profile is better than some of the other paper settings it still has a long way to go to compete with the Epson even though the Epson was printing on what HP admts is not the best paper to test on.

This is the first time I have been able to test one of my Epson's profiles against HP's canned profiles without the profiling system being a consideration.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=102418\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Robert,

    Could you send me the Epson and HP profiles you are using, and what paper you are printing on. That way I can see what your seeing and I can compare my profile to yours.

Julian@spectraflow.com

Thanks
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Julian Mussi

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marty m
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« Reply #135 on: February 23, 2007, 09:12:19 PM »
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One more week has passed since HP told some of you they would provide new firmware.  

Where are we?  Any progress?

Any comments or reports from HP to any of you?

I know that some of you already sold your Epsons and are waiting for shipments of the 44" or 24" Z3100.  Any news on the HP schedule for that?
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« Reply #136 on: February 23, 2007, 09:17:41 PM »
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One more week has passed since HP told some of you they would provide new firmware. 

Where are we?  Any progress?

Any comments or reports from HP to any of you?

I know that some of you already sold your Epsons and are waiting for shipments of the 44" or 24" Z3100.  Any news on the HP schedule for that?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=102739\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Marty,
    Still no firmware, on my end anyhow. Drop me a line and I can tell you how long it would take for us to get you one.

Thanks,

Julian Mussi
www.spectraflow.com
julian@spectraflow.com
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Julian Mussi

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« Reply #137 on: February 26, 2007, 02:05:25 AM »
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Kind of quiet on the HP Gamut z3100 gamut thread.....are you all printing happily with the new beta firmware? (btw - I have access to the beta firmware but don't have a printer - send me a pm if you have a printer and didn't get the beta access code).


What baffles me is that some people seem happy and others are not - like there are two different sets of ink out there for this or something weird going on in software.  
Wow would I love this printer to work out....Marty is right, I've sold my other printers and need to buy something soon.  A whole lot of that HP looks good to me but I don't want a nice machine that can't make red.  I guess I'll wait through PMA and hope that HP figures out either a new ink mixing deal or some other soluting for this printer.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2007, 02:07:08 AM by EricWHiss » Logged

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« Reply #138 on: February 26, 2007, 12:53:11 PM »
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Julian, i just compared HP's Litho realistic profile to the Epson profile I made today with the z3100's spectro...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=102418\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hello!
How did you print the HP-Testchart on the Epson? I would be very happy if i could use the HP Z2100 to profile my Epson-Printers.

Greetings
Martin
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Panascape
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« Reply #139 on: February 26, 2007, 01:00:59 PM »
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There is a folder called "test charts" in the APS folder in the programs folder on a pc. The targets are in the printers sub folder.

You print the TIFF and then use the HP Advanced profiling solution software to profiled using the z series printer.
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