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Author Topic: HP Z3100 Problems with Colour Gamut  (Read 120158 times)
zirmedien
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« Reply #140 on: February 26, 2007, 01:11:42 PM »
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There is a folder called "test charts" in the APS folder in the programs folder on a pc. The targets are in the printers sub folder.

You print the TIFF and then use the HP Advanced profiling solution software to profiled using the z series printer.
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No chance without APS?
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Panascape
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« Reply #141 on: February 26, 2007, 01:31:08 PM »
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Possibly, but it could be tricky and you would need the charts for the HP to read.
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ricgal
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« Reply #142 on: February 26, 2007, 01:39:35 PM »
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Is it essential to remake profiles with new firmware as i presume it is putting ink down differently

I spoke to the HP people @ Focus on imaging-  the UK Trade Expo-  Sweet Oblivion to any probs-  Fuji and Illford are putting out RIPs which may be interesting,  the Illford seemed quite well priced.  I have a Fuji pro media swatch so if it works well with the RIP it may be good  as they have a 300gsm smooth 'baryte' paper that looks suspiciously similar to FAP as does the rest of the FA range to that well known German paper firm's range.
Interesting to see how the Fuji stuff takes the ink-  i only have swatch so will not find out yet!
I picked up loads of new papers to try,  Harman Matte  FB MP 310,, kentmere Elite Fibre Glossy unglazed, Lumijet Range-
The never ending quest for the nonexistent 'perfect' paper-  that is life with a new printer!
The Trad paper makers are well and truly on the band wagon
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rdonson
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« Reply #143 on: February 26, 2007, 01:57:36 PM »
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Possibly, but it could be tricky and you would need the charts for the HP to read.
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So.... without APS you can't find the charts (TIFFs) used for creating the patches?
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Ron
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« Reply #144 on: February 26, 2007, 02:51:48 PM »
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The Tiffs are the easy part and I suppose you can use the HP colour centre to do the profiling but only the small target that the printer itself uses. The trick is going to be controlling the settings and getting the printer to read pre printed patches.
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abiggs
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« Reply #145 on: March 05, 2007, 11:36:57 AM »
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I am an Epson user lurking on the thread, and am interested in solutions for the HP Z series, as I might buy one at some point. You should look into Studioprint for the Z3100, so you can drive it natively. I know that Ergosoft has been driving CMYK, RGB, and CMYKRGB devices for quite some time, and I know they are going to be at the Canon booth at PMA. I think they will be driving the IPF8000. I will be there later this week and will ask some questions.
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Andy Biggs
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EricWHiss
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« Reply #146 on: March 13, 2007, 12:21:37 PM »
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Hi All,

Julian Mussi of SpectraFlow noticed from my posts that I lived close to their business and was kind enough to suggest that I stop by and take a look at what he was able to get the HP z3100 to print. I took him up on his offer and wanted to report back to the group here my findings.  

They have an Epson 7800 right next to the new HP z3100 so we could compare the output from both printers directly on the same paper using both stock and custom profiles made by Julian, as well as the HP's self generated profiles.

After looking at numerous test prints I can safely say that the z3100 is definitely capable of printing a nice red - Julian has figured out how to coax this out from the machine. Yellow also does not seem to be a problem. So the gamut problems I originally saw were not an ink formulation issue since the current inks can hit all the colors and I don't think HP will need to reformulate inks. Rework mixing algorithm maybe, but reformulate no.  I think when HP gets the last tweaks in the machine and firmware it will be really great.   Also it appears that the newer firmware has allowed for better rendering and transitions in the OOG areas.  

How did the HP compare to the epson?  Well it was amazing to see the same file printed through different profiles to both machines. Pick up any print from either machine and you'd be happy, but when you compare them to each other, you start to notice the subtle differences between the two printers. Only in comparing the two do you realize how many colors are slightly off in both prints.   The HP seems to have the advantage now when the whole print is weighed, and there is hope that either HP will improve their firmware yet again or a third party RIP will release even more of the untapped potential of the machine.   Thanks to Julian, I no longer have doubts about gamut on this machine. Factor in the longer life of the HP prints plus the more economical use of ink and the HP seems like the better choice IMHO.  

I'd like to thank Julian for sharing his time and knowledge. He's a stand up guy and I would not hesitate to recommend him or spectraflow. Disclaimer: I have no affiliation with Spectraflow.
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Charles Gast
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« Reply #147 on: April 13, 2007, 07:46:04 AM »
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As far as "coaxing" better color I assume the coaxing involves using the built-in profiler with the latest firmware?

As far as a third party RIP goes I see ImagePrint RIP for machines for 24inch format is $2400.00! That is close to what I spent on this machine after the rebate and el-freebo paper offer!  I'll have to stick with HP on this one.  RIP for the RIP's at that price..
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Jim Cole
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« Reply #148 on: April 13, 2007, 09:02:48 AM »
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Charles,

I think that the $2400 is for the 44" machine. I think ImagePrint for the 24" is around $1500.

JIm


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As far as a third party RIP goes I see ImagePrint RIP for machines for 24inch format is $2400.00! That is close to what I spent on this machine after the rebate and el-freebo paper offer!  I'll have to stick with HP on this one.  RIP for the RIP's at that price..
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Jim Cole
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marcsitkin
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« Reply #149 on: April 13, 2007, 09:26:28 AM »
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We're running the Z3100 with a Wasatch RIP now. Ergosoft Posterprint can also drive this machine. Both RIPs need a CMYKRGB (Seven color) profile to work properly. The APS does not currently make this type of profile. The APS creates a CMYK profile (4 color). If you are shopping for a RIP, be sure to ask the RIP vendor what the RIP will need to work.

My dealer is trying to get an answer from HP as to the future of the APS software. It can generate a good profile for another CMYK printer, but we'll probably return it if it doesn't do a true seven color profile.
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Marc Sitkin
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Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #150 on: April 13, 2007, 09:58:32 AM »
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We're running the Z3100 with a Wasatch RIP now. Ergosoft Posterprint can also drive this machine. Both RIPs need a CMYKRGB (Seven color) profile to work properly. The APS does not currently make this type of profile. The APS creates a CMYK profile (4 color). If you are shopping for a RIP, be sure to ask the RIP vendor what the RIP will need to work.

My dealer is trying to get an answer from HP as to the future of the APS software. It can generate a good profile for another CMYK printer, but we'll probably return it if it doesn't do a true seven color profile.
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Marc,

Not only should one ask what the RIP needs to work (N-channel profiles = N-channel profile creator) but a friend with a Canon iPF9000 called and he told me that the Scanvec RIP he uses had an iPF9000 driver but it ignores the RGB inks including the linearisation of the RGB inks. Nothing new as the first Epson 9600 driver on that RIP (and he had to wait very long for that one) didn't use the grey ink of the 9600 :-)

I see that the HP Z drivers in the Wasatch SoftRip fall in the optional category (extra price) and the Canon iPF ones are not in that category. They are so special ?  Does that mean a special B&W print mode as well ?  Something I asked them a long time ago when I converted an Epson 9000 to quad inks. Can you tell more about the special features like how the gloss enhancer is used. The use of LG, MG, PK, MK on matte paper. Any user influence on the partioning of the grey inks ?  How did you set the RGB ink substitution: on hue angle or saturation + hue angle ?

Ernst Dinkla

try: [a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/]http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/[/url]
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marcsitkin
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« Reply #151 on: April 13, 2007, 10:45:31 AM »
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Marc,

Not only should one ask what the RIP needs to work (N-channel profiles = N-channel profile creator) but a friend with a Canon iPF9000 called and he told me that the Scanvec RIP he uses had an iPF9000 driver but it ignores the RGB inks including the linearisation of the RGB inks. Nothing new as the first Epson 9600 driver on that RIP (and he had to wait very long for that one) didn't use the grey ink of the 9600 :-)

I see that the HP Z drivers in the Wasatch SoftRip fall in the optional category (extra price) and the Canon iPF ones are not in that category. They are so special ?  Does that mean a special B&W print mode as well ?  Something I asked them a long time ago when I converted an Epson 9000 to quad inks. Can you tell more about the special features like how the gloss enhancer is used. The use of LG, MG, PK, MK on matte paper. Any user influence on the partioning of the grey inks ?  How did you set the RGB ink substitution: on hue angle or saturation + hue angle ?

Ernst Dinkla

try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/
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The Wasatch Z3100 is a standard driver in the softrip package version 6.1. I'm still under service contract so I got the upgrade for free. You could check with Miranda at Wasatch, she handled the process for me, no problems on the upgrade.

Setup is relatively straightforward. After adding the IP address, you choose the printer model on an open channel. Options include 24 or 44" models.  The printer property box gives you access to the initial settings, such as paper types that are similar to those available in the Z3100 itself, pass count and uni-or bi directional, borderless, as well as the gloss enhancer setting.

From that point, using the printer via the RIP is the same as any other printer in Wasatch. They provide 7 color linearization targets, Channel ink limiting sliders, Total Ink limiting, and color work flow hookups.

The first profile we made has GE turned off, because the material, although gloss, is always laminated, so I can't comment on the GE on it with any detail. Let me know if there is a specific test you need, I'll get it done for you next week.

I asked Wasatch about the PhotoK/Matte K switch and they said it was tied to the paper type selected. Not sure what they are doing regarding the LG,MG, inks on Matte. I hope to calibrate and profile some matte stock next week to do some B&W work.

The RGB ink substitution is controlled by the profilng software (Monaco). No special controls needed or available in Wasatch for this.

I did notice that the color separations rules button is dimmed, so that particular set of mysterious controls is not available to me (which is really ok, I'm not loosing sleep over it!)

Most of the time getting the first material linearized and profiled was determining the ink limits. Once these were established, the profiling patches printed clear and dry, and everything went smoothly. I haven't done a direct comparison between the RIP prints and the HP direct prints. My need for the RIP was to handle tiling for multiple panel tradeshow displays. Not sure if this is all needed for anyone doing fine art work. I do plan on checking out some APS profiles and comparing them to the no-APS profiles for work being printed out of PhotoShop.

Hope some of this helps.
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Marc Sitkin
www.digitalmomentum.com
Charles Gast
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« Reply #152 on: April 13, 2007, 02:37:25 PM »
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I see that the $2400 was for the 44" printer, not the 24" I have.  For a pro shop the templates and similar functions are very useful, but I dont need that. The reason I had IP for the 4800 was for black and white, and also to eliminate the pk - mk cart swap ink wasting. I did not notice an improvement in color on the 4800.
 
If IP has a built in utility to allow me to use 1700 chip targets on 11x17 sheets and includes a very noticable increase in gamut coverage I could see taking a serious look at it. I am still in the earliest testing stages with this printer anyway. Maybe HP takes care of what I want without APS or a RIP. This is what is happening in my dreams at least
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