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Author Topic: HP Z3100 Problems with Colour Gamut  (Read 119247 times)
adiallo
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« Reply #20 on: February 09, 2007, 08:15:40 PM »
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Just want to emphasize Julian's point about the color of the RGB inks and put this issue to rest for good. THe newer printers from Canon and HP have reds and blues that are more accurately described as orange and violet, respectively. StudioPrint RIP even lists them in ink channels as Orange/Red and Violet/Blue. Attached is a linearization from the Canon 5000. You have CMYK followed by RGB. The additional inks are designed to augment the basic 4 color set. For reasons that only color scientists fully understand it makes more sense to have orange and purple for mixing with the primaries.
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Panascape
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« Reply #21 on: February 12, 2007, 12:14:00 PM »
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Hi Amadou

Looking at the test chart, especially patch E20, this is what I would be happy to get as base Red, however the best my machine can do at the moment for an uncalibated chart would be E13.

The same would apply for A20 and F20 with the best my z3100 getting being around A14 and F17. If I create an uncalibrated chart with CMYK ramps and RGB ramps the CMYK prints correctly while the 100% RGB patches print Orange, purple and light bright green. This already says to me there is a problem with the colour mixing.

I have attached a sample of how the two printers will print the same chart. On the left is the Z3100 on super heavy weight matte and on the right, the epson 4000 on enhanced matte.

[attachment=1821:attachment]
« Last Edit: February 12, 2007, 02:27:13 PM by Panascape » Logged
John Hollenberg
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« Reply #22 on: February 12, 2007, 12:29:47 PM »
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The newer printers from Canon and HP have reds and blues that are more accurately described as orange and violet, respectively. StudioPrint RIP even lists them in ink channels as Orange/Red and Violet/Blue. Attached is a linearization from the Canon 5000.

Don't want to get too far off topic here, but how is Studioprint with the IPF5000?  Several posters on the IPF5000 Wiki are asking about RIPs for the 5000.  Is the gamut any better than using the drivers or plugin, or is there some other advantage to Studioprint for the 5000?

Feel free to stop by the Wiki:

http://www.canonipf5000.wikispaces.com

if that would be a more appropriate place to discuss this (side) topic.

--John
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jpgentry
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« Reply #23 on: February 13, 2007, 12:01:06 AM »
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I softproofed the canned profiles for the 3100 and my ipf8000 quite awhile ago and reported the limitations of the new printers on matte paper.  I had posted this on the Epson group and the Canon Wiki.  The 9600/7600/4000 reproduces darker reds and many darker tones in general when compared to almost any other inkset including the x800 and certainly better than the IPF and Z series.  The Z series seems to be the most limited in bottom end gamut when printing on matte papers and attempting to reproduce dark tones.  If you are printing matte this is very likely not the printer you would want to buy.  I print large canvases and use the ipf8000.  I took a hit on gamut when I switched from my 9600.

-Jonathan

You will notice in my post here I complain of flat reds and browns on my IPF8000 (on matte paper) as compared to the old 9600 I had:

http://canonipf5000.wikispaces.com/message/view/FAQ/195556
« Last Edit: February 13, 2007, 12:03:23 AM by jpgentry » Logged
Panascape
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« Reply #24 on: February 13, 2007, 01:58:10 AM »
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Thanks Johnothan

Problem is that HP sold the printer as being able to produce vibrant prints with an increased gamut on all media and I was assured that the matte papers would be no exception. All of my work is on matte paper and canvas.

I have done extensive testing and I am convinced the problem lies with HP's colour mixing strategy rather than a problem with the device or inks as the z2100 produces vastly better results.

Robert
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Christopher
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« Reply #25 on: February 13, 2007, 07:44:19 AM »
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Thanks Johnothan

Problem is that HP sold the printer as being able to produce vibrant prints with an increased gamut on all media and I was assured that the matte papers would be no exception. All of my work is on matte paper and canvas.

I have done extensive testing and I am convinced the problem lies with HP's colour mixing strategy rather than a problem with the device or inks as the z2100 produces vastly better results.

Robert
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100615\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Ok let's get clear because I'm getting a little pissed. ( @ HP ) What they deliver here is a total disaster. I mean gamut is horrible. Yes I still believe that can be fixed in firmware by changing the colour mixing. Here ar two example which speak for themselfs:
Both times HM Photo Rag. AND NO It doesn't get much better on glossy media. ( Only a little bit )
[attachment=1827:attachment]
[attachment=1828:attachment]


Now I really starting to ask myself how some testers could have missed that flaw ... ? Perhaps because it only started with the newst firmware version ? Or why ? i mean these things are not small they are BIG...
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Panascape
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« Reply #26 on: February 13, 2007, 07:54:11 AM »
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I too questioned the possibility of the problem being related to firmware but the canned profiles which were created with the original firmware also show the gamut problem.

Apart from HP missing this problem, how did all those who tested the printer a gave it glowing reviews also miss it? I picked it up on the first print.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2007, 08:02:53 AM by Panascape » Logged
chris anderson
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« Reply #27 on: February 13, 2007, 09:43:22 AM »
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I was about to pull the trigger on a Z3100, think I better wait......... I should have listened to my wife and not sold my 9800.......................
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A. Andrew Gonzalez
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« Reply #28 on: February 13, 2007, 12:16:09 PM »
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Wow, this a real disappointment. I was ready to buy the z3100 44 inch today. I have a buyer for my 9600 waiting. I print mostly subtle monochromatic neutrals on matte paper and canvas.
The reviews really fooled me. How could they miss this? How is it that another smaller printer using the same inks? produce better a color gamut? I really hope it can be fixed with a new firmware.

Andrew Gonzalez

http://www.sublimatrix.com
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A. Andrew Gonzalez
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Christopher
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« Reply #29 on: February 13, 2007, 12:24:12 PM »
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Wow, this a real disappointment. I was ready to buy the z3100 44 inch today. I have a buyer for my 9600 waiting. I print mostly subtle monochromatic neutrals on matte paper and canvas.
The reviews really fooled me. How could they miss this? How is it that another smaller printer using the same inks? produce better a color gamut? I really hope it can be fixed with a new firmware.

Andrew Gonzalez

http://www.sublimatrix.com
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100671\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I REALLY WOULD SUGGEST ALL TO WAIT UNTIL we have a clear statement from HP.

This is a disaster and if HP comes up with nothing better than that's the best we can do, than this printer is on ebay in a second. Sorry nice try, but the result so far is a disaster.

I will post as soon as I hear news from HP.


Another thing... Is this problem being fixed by RIPs like ImagePrint ? I mean do they change something in the colour mixing and so on or is it sitting to deep in the firmeware of the printer ?
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Christopher
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« Reply #30 on: February 13, 2007, 12:26:42 PM »
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Apart from HP missing this problem, how did all those who tested the printer a gave it glowing reviews also miss it? I picked it up on the first print.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100636\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I still think it is not so easy to identify. I have around 15 prints here which look fantastic. BUT they all are not printed on Matt and they all don't have any sat. red in them.

If you print BW it's fantastic, if you print not "too" special photos you probably wouldn't notice a Problem for some time.
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Panascape
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« Reply #31 on: February 13, 2007, 01:37:02 PM »
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I can understand possibly not seeing the problem straight away in a normal environment but when someone reviews a printer, I expect that they will really put it through its paces with regards to trying to see where its limitations lie.

This is not a difficult problem to pick up as we have both seen.

In this case of this problem, I know HP has been aware of it for a while but I am guessing they have done what most companies would do and kept quiet while they tried to fix it in the hope that they could patch it before it became too widely publicised.

As an owner of this printer and someone who is being really inconvenienced by it, I am not ready yet to contemplate getting rid of the machine as all of my past experience from the commercial print arena says that they can fix this but I do feel that an official comment is now due from HP, if for no other reason than to reassure the owners who have encountered this problem.

It would seem that a valuable lesson has come from this with regards to how the printer was tested in beta phase and by reviewers and this I feel this is an area that maybe needs to be looked at closely by potential buyers before we make decisions based on these reviews in the future.
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Christopher
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« Reply #32 on: February 13, 2007, 01:41:38 PM »
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I also WILL keep the thin as long as I know what HP will be doing or Epson is dowing something new at PMA... So HP should hurry at least with a statement so that we know what we are up to.
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adiallo
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« Reply #33 on: February 13, 2007, 03:06:38 PM »
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John,
I'm still in testing phase right now so I can't make any informed comments about SP and the Canon. I can say that from an RGB profiling stanpoint Printfix Pro2.0 is yielding very impressive results with the 5000 for both color and monochrome prints. By the end of the month I should have a beter feel for StudioPrint with both the Canon and the HP. I'll make sure to pass along the info.

And thanks for devoting so much of your time to the wiki by the way. It is geatly appreciated! If only you were an employee of Canon. We'd probably have real documentation and better online support by now
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adiallo
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« Reply #34 on: February 13, 2007, 03:20:17 PM »
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I'd be careful about inferring too much from raw data send to a CMYK printer through an RGB driver. In theory of course, the driver, in a color managed scenario would make any necessary adjustments to what you're seeing to hit the required hues.

I'm not disputing that you have a color issue. One thing I ran into here was inconsistent color output, literally from print to print. Specifically a magenta cast or alternately dark, slightly washed out colors. After much troubleshooting it seems my problem is computer specific. I have run the same test prints from a second computer that all come out as expected, with saturated reds, deep blues, etc. I'm going to reinstall the driver on the problem computer. Do you have access to another machine with the driver loaded?

I will say that for RGB profiling I'm getting better results right now from PrintFix Pro. I know, this defeats the whole purpose of having a built-in spectro. Still have more testing to do to make a definitive statement. Have you tried creating a profile with something other than the on-board software?

Quote
Hi Amadou

Looking at the test chart, especially patch E20, this is what I would be happy to get as base Red, however the best my machine can do at the moment for an uncalibated chart would be E13.

The same would apply for A20 and F20 with the best my z3100 getting being around A14 and F17. If I create an uncalibrated chart with CMYK ramps and RGB ramps the CMYK prints correctly while the 100% RGB patches print Orange, purple and light bright green. This already says to me there is a problem with the colour mixing.

I have attached a sample of how the two printers will print the same chart. On the left is the Z3100 on super heavy weight matte and on the right, the epson 4000 on enhanced matte.

[attachment=1821:attachment]
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100500\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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andyheb
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« Reply #35 on: February 13, 2007, 03:33:24 PM »
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Robert,
Have you had any contact with HP support?

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99882\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I'm also very curious and like to hear what HP Support told you.
Did you call them?
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Jim Cole
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« Reply #36 on: February 13, 2007, 03:57:04 PM »
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My main question right now is if these printers with the gamut issues are only from the South Africa area?

Has anyone within the US taken delivery of a Z3100 with the same issues?

If not, the problem may be localized to a specific production plant and wouldn't affect those of us who are ready to take delivery of one of these printers.

Jim Cole
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Jim Cole
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Christopher
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« Reply #37 on: February 13, 2007, 04:10:30 PM »
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My main question right now is if these printers with the gamut issues are only from the South Africa area?

Has anyone within the US taken delivery of a Z3100 with the same issues?

If not, the problem may be localized to a specific production plant and wouldn't affect those of us who are ready to take delivery of one of these printers.

Jim Cole
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100708\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I have the same problem here. UK printer is from Germany.


Now I do final test to rule every own mistake out.

I recalibrate everything, make a head cleaning.

After that I will produce a new custom profile based on 5000 patches. After that I know 100% whether the printer is able to produce any good results with the firmware right now.

No nothing against PrintFix pro, but I think I know what I'm doing and that my custom profiles are some of the best. ( Ok had to be said, I mean I sell them ^^)

So I will post again when everything finished.
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #38 on: February 13, 2007, 04:42:53 PM »
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Just want to emphasize Julian's point about the color of the RGB inks and put this issue to rest for good. THe newer printers from Canon and HP have reds and blues that are more accurately described as orange and violet, respectively. StudioPrint RIP even lists them in ink channels as Orange/Red and Violet/Blue. Attached is a linearization from the Canon 5000. You have CMYK followed by RGB. The additional inks are designed to augment the basic 4 color set. For reasons that only color scientists fully understand it makes more sense to have orange and purple for mixing with the primaries.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100108\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Panascape's post only had one chart reproduced so one cannot see the comparative effect. But Amadou, I'm wondering whether you have put the issue to rest for good. While it may be correct that the inks are orange and violet, what really matters is whether the numbers in the image file that define for example red come out of the printer as that red should come out, etc. From what I'm reading here it seems the complaint is more about this than about the hue of the inks themselves.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
Christopher
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« Reply #39 on: February 13, 2007, 04:58:09 PM »
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Panascape's post only had one chart reproduced so one cannot see the comparative effect. But Amadou, I'm wondering whether you have put the issue to rest for good. While it may be correct that the inks are orange and violet, what really matters is whether the numbers in the image file that define for example red come out of the printer as that red should come out, etc. From what I'm reading here it seems the complaint is more about this than about the hue of the inks themselves.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100715\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


YES I really don't care how the inks look like. I care how they are getting used and that's a disaster...
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