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Author Topic: new- overwhelmed- sleepless nights  (Read 5465 times)
angela
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« on: February 08, 2007, 10:51:20 AM »
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Hello all, I am new to this site as well as large format printing.
I  am an artist and have been selling my paintings for the past six years and have generated a list of galleries that I sell to.
It made more sense for me to buy a printer to make replications of my work.
About twelve years ago, I studied courses in graphic design, but changed my major(fine art)
Needless to say, things have changed!!! I have experience with photoshop cs, etc...
but printing with the large format printers has left me scratching my head.

I bought the z3100 44" printer and work from an imac G5. I always new it would be MORE than plugging my printer in and printing.... so I have stayed up a many late nights reading as much as I can.  (is there a printing 101 large format for dummies book?)


So now my question...

I got my computer set up, inks installed, software installed.
Now, it is really important that my images on my screen match my printing... it's not.

I have calibrated everything and created a profile for the paper I am using.
I have gone in and done things in the color sync, the printers utillity(calibrate your printer, calibrate your display),  the color settings.... I felt I have done a bunch of overlapping.

Can anyone help me please, I feel overwhelmed and am questioning my decision for jumping into this large purchase. (Don't tell my husband!!)

I am a fast learner so I am still hanging on a thread of "I CAN DO IT" attitude!

Thanks,
Angela

Also I have done some reading on the hp advanced profiling solution. Considering if I need it?  
Also, I haven't bought a RIP yet.... still learning about that also.
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Dale_Cotton
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« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2007, 11:06:20 AM »
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Nice post; you also need to detail the exact difference or differences between monitor and print. For example: cyan colour cast in shadow colours or yellows are desaturated.

Assume you're printing from Photoshop and using soft proof to preview.

One suspicion anyone reading a print/monitor mismatch plea will have is that the poster does not yet have the experience to distinguish between a technological limitation of printed output, such as gamut clipping, and a potentially solvable problem, such as a colour cast.
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angela
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« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2007, 11:16:59 AM »
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I do work with photoshop cs and have been softproofing.
When I first started, what was on my screen and when I went to proof colors, the image changed dramatically.

Now that I thought I have everything as should be, when I proof colors, it doesn't change at all on my screen. It  remains the same and the gamut warning doesn't hight light any gray areas.

So I printed it out... the print turned out way dark compared to my screen.
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DarkPenguin
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« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2007, 12:12:14 PM »
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You are not double profiling?  (Photoshop is handling colors and the printer is not?)

You are viewing your prints using an appropriate light?

Some monitors (my Dell) are WAY bright.  I have to light the room like I'm straddling the equator at high noon to offset this.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2007, 12:14:33 PM by DarkPenguin » Logged
Herb
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« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2007, 01:14:04 PM »
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Difficult to know if the monitor or printer (or both?) is at fault? You might consider purchasing a Macbth Color Checker. It's a color standard. View a digital file of the Checker from here:

http://www.drycreekphoto.com/Learn/monitor_calibration.htm

or here:

http://www.brucelindbloom.com/index.html?C...CheckerRGB.html

(These are great sites)

Calibrate your monitor to D65. View Checker (and prints) under Solux 4700K lamp. (Search for lots of info on advantages of these good spectrum lamps).

Checker & monitor should match.

Point about bright monitor is important. Ethan Hansen advises monitor calibration to approx 85 candelas/square metre - good match for reflectance off paper.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2007, 01:14:56 PM by Herb » Logged
Panascape
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« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2007, 01:23:21 PM »
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Angela, I am having problems with dark colours and saturated colours, especially reds. I have a thread going about this.

The printer is also printing a bit darker than my epson and it is printing darker than the colour values in my image.

Can you conform if this is the same problem you are having as we are talking to HP about this at the moment.

Thanks

Robert
« Last Edit: February 08, 2007, 02:07:13 PM by Panascape » Logged
colourperfect
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« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2007, 01:59:49 PM »
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You can always turn down the brightness !
You should then re-calibrate the monitor, assuming that it was calibrated in the first place.

This will be the most critical step, give that the printer can calibrate itself

Ian

http://profiles.colourperfect.co.uk
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Bill J
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« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2007, 11:58:26 PM »
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View Checker (and prints) under Solux 4700K lamp.
Herb,

I have a Solux lamp by my printer, but how bright should it be? What range of lumens is appropriate?

Bill
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borzynd
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« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2007, 11:16:03 AM »
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Also, be sure that Adobe Gamma is turned off.  Adobe gamma will override the monitor profile you created and you'll be back to square one.  I am not sure how to do this with the Macs, so someone else will have to tell you.

Could you go through and list all of the print settings you are using, maybe even include a screen shot or two.  One of the hardest things about getting prints right with PS is not missing a step or setting.  There are a lot of little things that will quickly screw up a print which seem to make sense when you are first setting things up.

Most immediate things that come to mind that I overlook and/or do on a too frequent basis, especially which switching between papers and settings:

- correct paper settings for you paper, and you are printing on the correct side of the paper?

- correct paper profile selected

- Is PS, the computer, the printer, or some combination managing the color?  

- clogged nozzle heads?  This probably won't be the case for a new machine, but it never hurts to ask.
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Paul Sumi
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« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2007, 12:02:30 PM »
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Angela,

From your post it's not clear whether the monitor is actually profiled and calibrated.  Are you using calibration software with a hardware colorimeter?  Sounds like you're just using OS X's Colorsync utility.

Paul
« Last Edit: February 09, 2007, 12:06:32 PM by PaulS » Logged

Herb
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« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2007, 02:09:55 PM »
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Herb,

I have a Solux lamp by my printer, but how bright should it be? What range of lumens is appropriate?

Bill
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Bill,

ISO 3664 specifies 2000 lux. But the practical advice that stuck in my head came from Ethan Hansen: Compare monitor to viewing booth with a light meter. White document in Photoshop, softproof to printer profile with Abs Col rendering. Take reading off monitor from viewing position. Put a blank sheet of your paper in the viewing position. Adjust lighting distance so that meter reading matches monitor.

That was a couple of years ago. Ethan was a giant. There were (are) a lot of great posts on the defunct Rob Galbraith forums - now Pro Photo or something and subscription based. I wont pay money for something created freely by the users - especially people like Ethan, Andrew Rodney, Bruce Fraser etc. Now their advice is charged! I think that's very wrong. Nevertheless, although I find little of interest in current posts, those old posts are probably worth a one-off subscription.

A couple of links:

[a href=\"http://www.babelcolor.com/download/Light_under_control_2005-11-08.pdf]http://www.babelcolor.com/download/Light_u..._2005-11-08.pdf[/url]

http://www.creativepro.com/story/feature/11791.html
http://www.creativepro.com/story/feature/12054-4.html

I'm no expert, but hope this is useful.
Herb
« Last Edit: February 09, 2007, 02:11:06 PM by Herb » Logged
angela
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« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2007, 10:34:12 PM »
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On my os x I went into display and calibrated and profiled my monitor. I don't have calibration software other than colorsync.

 Ya know, right now, I think I have gone in and done this and that and created a big mess. I am learning all this, I mean basic elementry largeformat printing 101. I talked to a guy here from a mac store and where I bought mine,  and they do alot of other things (color management, large format printing, etc.) He's going to come over next week and give me some info.

Have a good weekend everyone!

Angie
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Andrew W
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« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2007, 11:25:43 PM »
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Angela:

It sounds like you did a monitor profile in the OS? This may be a big part of your problem. A profiling device such as, Spider 2 Pro by Colorvision will give you much better results than the one built into your OS.

Here is one avenue: http://www.colorvision.com/

Forgive me if I have misunderstood your post. I hope this helps.
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eronald
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« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2007, 01:12:18 PM »
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On my os x I went into display and calibrated and profiled my monitor. I don't have calibration software other than colorsync.

Angie
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100119\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Time to buy a calibrator. I strongly recommend an Eyeone Display device athough you might get by with a Huey.

That is the first thing you need to do.
Without a calibrated monitor, any attempt at "standard" color management is useless, although you can still get good color by trial and error.

Edmund
« Last Edit: February 11, 2007, 01:13:34 PM by eronald » Logged

Edmund Ronald, Ph.D. 
angela
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« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2007, 08:02:07 PM »
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Ok, yesterday I got the book I ordered by mail.... Mastering Ditigal Printing by harald Johnson.
I just finished it earlier today.  Needless to say, I am very sore from sitting for so long!!!

I feel like I've got a little grasp for things.

So what is the difference between Spyder, eye one display 2 and this new HP Advanced Profiling System that is recommended with the z3100??

Angie
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Peter Bangkok
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« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2007, 05:32:38 AM »
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Angela
Is the book good enough to take one through the 101 of printing, incl the millions of settings that I need to do?

Have struggled for sometime now in getting BWprints done well.
Calibrated, fiddled with settings etc. etc. but they still turn out too dark.

Peter
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madmanchan
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« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2007, 06:19:50 AM »
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Quote
Ok, yesterday I got the book I ordered by mail.... Mastering Ditigal Printing by harald Johnson.
I just finished it earlier today.  Needless to say, I am very sore from sitting for so long!!!

I feel like I've got a little grasp for things.

So what is the difference between Spyder, eye one display 2 and this new HP Advanced Profiling System that is recommended with the z3100??

Angie
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100405\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Angela, the Spyder and Eye One Display 2 are different tools for calibrating your monitor and creating a profile for your monitor. They both do the same thing, but they're different tools. I have the Eye One Display 2 and it's very good.

The HP APS is used to create profiles for your printer, not your display. It differs from the base HP software in that it allows you to use more patches in your printer target and has more options in building the profile. So, the goals of HP APS are very different than the monitor calibration/profiling tools.

But, as noted above in earlier posts, you definitely need to calibrate your screen with a good colorimeter such as an Eye One Display or similar device; otherwise you'll just be guessing when it comes down to doing screen-print matches.

Eric
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angela
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« Reply #17 on: February 12, 2007, 09:46:24 AM »
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The book is good, it goes in depth for the beginning of things.  The author does a good job at describing things in a clear way. There is alot of information that is broken down. Like different file formats, info about image compression, etc...
There is a large section about colormanagement that is very good. It does teach you the basics of ICC, Intent, and monitor matching.  As far as knowing where to plug everything in that you've learned.... I am still working on that one.  I don't know how much experience you have but I am a beginners beginner, and I thought this book was a lot of help. I went through barnes & noble. I think it cost like 29 buck, but go to the used section and I got it sent to me for 9 bucks plus shipping. And it was brand new.


Okay for this color management thing... let me get this straight.

The eye one display 2 is for calibrating your monitor ONLY.
The HP Advanced Profiling solutions.... I thought was to ALSO to calibrate your monitor AND add more profiles to your printer. Does more profiles mean more color choices for your printer. There is this one color in my work, it is actual rust, so it is very brilliant and a vibrant orangish color.  It's always is out of gamut.

Also, when I calibrated my monitor, I went into Hp Printer Utility and choose "Calibrate Display" where it prompted me to another display where I went in and visually matched the apple to the background.
My computer is brand new, so even with a new screen, it is still advisable to buy eye one, even if I supposely callilbrated it correctly with the apple thingy?


Thanks for all the help, I REALLY appreciate it!

Angela
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madmanchan
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« Reply #18 on: February 12, 2007, 10:23:59 AM »
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The eye one display 2 is for calibrating your monitor ONLY.
The HP Advanced Profiling solutions.... I thought was to ALSO to calibrate your monitor AND add more profiles to your printer. Does more profiles mean more color choices for your printer. There is this one color in my work, it is actual rust, so it is very brilliant and a vibrant orangish color. It's always is out of gamut.

The HP APS is for calibrating and profiling your printer, not your display. Remember, the spectro built-in to the Z printer lives inside the printer. It can't help you with your display.

Regarding the bright orange color. More profiles doesn't necessarily mean the orange will become in gamut. There are some colors that are simply outside the gamut of the ink/paper combo that you are using. It is true that a good profile will try to maximize the gamut of colors that can be reproduced, but if a color is way out of gamut then a profile can't help you. If maximum color gamut is what you're after, you'll have to try different papers until you find one that's suitable. Typically, RC-based papers such as glossy or luster papers have the largest gamut.

Quote
Also, when I calibrated my monitor, I went into Hp Printer Utility and choose "Calibrate Display" where it prompted me to another display where I went in and visually matched the apple to the background.
My computer is brand new, so even with a new screen, it is still advisable to buy eye one, even if I supposely callilbrated it correctly with the apple thingy?

A hardware colorimeter is necessary to get good, predictable results from a color managed workflow, even with a brand new display. The visual matching tests are a very rough way to set up the display. A colorimeter (or spectrophotometer) is much more precise.
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angela
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« Reply #19 on: February 12, 2007, 10:27:56 AM »
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Thank you!
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