Ad
Ad
Ad
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 15 »   Bottom of Page
Print
Author Topic: Backs for architecture/commercial photography  (Read 80750 times)
rueyloon
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 187


WWW
« on: February 10, 2007, 12:04:20 AM »
ReplyReply

I'm at the point where I'm considering gunning for the next stage of my career and trying to leap over to the bigger players. I have a kodak pro back, but it is too limiting and I do corporate work which includes much "standard" photography such as architecture, landscape, buildings, cars, people etc etc.. but I do want to  move into architecture photography in a bigger way.

I feel when I'm doing an architecture shoot, it mirrors alot of my personal work as it involves alot of walking around, looking and waiting for the right light.

My current plan is to sell the proback and get either a p21 or aptus 17, and use it on a truwide with nikkor lenses. I do have an arca swiss 69, but I can't afford going for the digitar lenses.

I've read that there are some backs which are unsuitable for use with shifting lenses, which are these ? I know the p30 is one of them.

The local currency is about 1.5x that of the USD hence everything to me is about 50% more than what you guys experience.

I'm now using a canon/5D and a Mamiya/proback system.
If cost is going to be a big factor, I might sell the whole mamiya set just to get a digital back for architecture and let the 5D take care of the rest.

I have another section in my company which deals with weddings photography, hence I'll still be keeping the 5D for that.

I hope you guys will share your views and advice on this.

thanks

cheers
rgs
rueyloon

http://www.rueyloon.com
http://www.36frames.com
Logged
Dustbak
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2370


« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2007, 02:45:22 AM »
ReplyReply

When you want to use the 85PC, do not get the Aptus17. All 85's give hotspots and lightrings at least they do on my Aptus17. My Valeo11 did not have this problem so apparently not all Leaf backs have this problem.

I have now tested several 85's (loaned them from Nikon). All of them showed this phenomena (some more than others). According to Nikon this has to do with the coating on the sensor. Apparently the D2x suffers of this as well but in a way lesser form.

You could make custom gain files for all different shifts and tilts to address this problem in post but it will be another step in your workflow.

A friend of mine used the truewide with an Imacon 132 and he did not have this problem.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2007, 02:46:19 AM by Dustbak » Logged
rueyloon
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 187


WWW
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2007, 10:07:14 AM »
ReplyReply

the lenses I'll get  will be the 28mm nikkor and the 35mm nikkor PC lenses.

as I've read, leaf is the one with the center fold issue, and phase one is the one with the color cast issue. Anything else I need to know ?

I read on the kapturegroup website that the truewide might not function properly at shutter speed highter than 1/30s, any real experience with this issue ?

cheers
« Last Edit: February 10, 2007, 10:08:44 AM by rueyloon » Logged
Dustbak
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2370


« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2007, 10:33:52 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote
the lenses I'll get  will be the 28mm nikkor and the 35mm nikkor PC lenses.

as I've read, leaf is the one with the center fold issue, and phase one is the one with the color cast issue. Anything else I need to know ?

I read on the kapturegroup website that the truewide might not function properly at shutter speed highter than 1/30s, any real experience with this issue ?

cheers
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100186\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


They have it on their site but I have never experienced this problem. I have used the thing both in the studio as well as in the 'field'. Not once has this occurred with shutter speeds above 1/30.

I would definitely recommend the Zeiss ZF lenses with the truewide. Totally awesome, no movements though. None of my Hasselblad lenses even comes close to the quality of the ZF's (these include the 100/3.5 as well as the 120Macro).

The Leaf centerfold issue has been reported in the 75 most of the time, I have rarely heard it with the 17, 22 or the 65.

The coating of the 17 apparently gives the light ring phenomena. I am not sure whether this is also the case with the 65. I would be happy to find out if I could borrow a 65 somewhere.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2007, 10:40:30 AM by Dustbak » Logged
thsinar
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2066


WWW
« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2007, 10:37:05 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote
the lenses I'll get  will be the 28mm nikkor and the 35mm nikkor PC lenses.

as I've read, leaf is the one with the center fold issue, and phase one is the one with the color cast issue. Anything else I need to know ?

I read on the kapturegroup website that the truewide might not function properly at shutter speed highter than 1/30s, any real experience with this issue ?

cheers
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100186\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I cannot speak about centrefold issues with other backs. All I can say is that the eMotion 22 or 75 don't have this particular problem. As for color casts, this is an issue with different causes, one of them beeing the sensor. Here the dalsa sensors are ways better, but not completely free of it, depending on the situation. However, it can be corrected with so-called "White References" during the shoot and corrected in the software: that's what can be done with the eMotions when using Captureshop or then the Brumbaer tools from Stefan Hess. It not only corrects color casts by applying automatically the right "White Reference", but also recovers highlights (between 1 and 2 f-stops) and writes dng files which can be then processed in any dng soft.

All the best,
Thierry
Logged

Thierry Hagenauer
thasia_cn@yahoo.com
benedmonson
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 125


WWW
« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2007, 11:17:06 AM »
ReplyReply

I can also add since I just went thru this that the P21 has micro lense like the P30 and doesn't do well with shift lens. On the other hand being able to use C1 Pro alone was a huge reason for me choosing the P30. I would suggest if you're thinking serious architecture the only real solution for a reasonable amount of money is a used Phase One P25. It has a 1.1 crop factor so your wides are still wides and takes shift lens with no or alot less problems. I've seen them go for as little as $12,500.00 USD used. They are a great back just don't use them above ISO 200.
Hope this helps in your hunt.

Regards,

Ben Edmonson
www.benedmonson.com
Logged
rainer_v
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1130


WWW
« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2007, 11:32:03 AM »
ReplyReply

with the p25 you have also to know that you have to use the lcc method from c1. this means more or less the same than you should do with the newer dalsa sensors as well, its to shoot some opalglass before every new image if you change the shift position, at least with wideangles. as far i know the lense casts have little or nothing to do with microlenses, but with the specific sensor design from kodak. so all kodak sensors starting with the kodak 16mp back, their 35mm 14n and slr cameras, the phase backs, imacon backs and sinar backs as long they used kodak sensors suffer from more or less strong casts with wideangles,- but not only than.

not a great deal if you know to handle it. better for shift lenses are in any case the dalsa sensors,
at least till 22mp resolution. they are nearly free of every casts even with shiftlenses.

the newer 33mp sensors ( used by sinar in the e75 and leaf in the a75+65 ) are more sensitive to this issue, so better to shoot white references than thierry suggest.
there is also a known issue with many leaf a75 ( + some a65 ) backs,the famous centerfold issue. there was a looooooong disussion here about that and its backgrounds ....:
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....0&hl=centerfold
Logged

rainer viertlböck
architecture photographer
munich / germany

www.tangential.de
rueyloon
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 187


WWW
« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2007, 11:47:08 AM »
ReplyReply

How does the backs with micro lenses (p21 p30) effect the image ? Or is it just a misconception as described by rehnniar.

Then does the leaf backs fare better in this case ?
Logged
marcwilson
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 411


WWW
« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2007, 11:52:04 AM »
ReplyReply

Just a thought here but if you are looking for a solution strictly for architectural work, as you say you have your 5D for other work, is it imperative that you find a digital solution right now?

Any digital solution for architectural phootgraphy requires quite specialsed cameras / lenses / backs and so if this is something you are getting into, may it not make more sense to start with a film based large format system.
This will give you much more flexibility in terms of lenses, cameras, movements, etc for a much smaller outlay than on a digital system.

Of course if financially it make sense to put togteher a digital architectural system then great but I think it is imperative to put together the right system and not a cobbled together one due to financial reasons.

Marc
Logged

marcwilson
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 411


WWW
« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2007, 12:02:09 PM »
ReplyReply

Sorry I should also say, is the truwide the best solution of that type as it requires shift lenses.

cameras from silvestrti for example allow you to mount nikon lenses but the back moves meaning you get shift with all lenses and so do not need specific shift lenses.



http://www.silvestricamera.it/eng/prodotti...NK/Bicam_NK.htm
« Last Edit: February 10, 2007, 12:08:54 PM by marcwilson » Logged

Dustbak
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2370


« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2007, 12:16:33 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote
Sorry I should also say, is the truwide the best solution of that type as it requires shift lenses.

cameras from silvestrti for example allow you to mount nikon lenses but the back moves meaning you get shift with all lenses and so do not need specific shift lenses.
http://www.silvestricamera.it/eng/prodotti...NK/Bicam_NK.htm
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100214\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]



I would love to buy a Silvestri, now if they would only answer my emails.
Logged
marcwilson
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 411


WWW
« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2007, 12:23:24 PM »
ReplyReply

Dustbak..not sure where you are but in the U.K. contact either morco or linhofstudio.

Both carry the full silvestri systems, are really helpfull and positively help you to go to them and try out the silvestris.

Marc
Logged

Dustbak
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2370


« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2007, 12:31:55 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote
Dustbak..not sure where you are but in the U.K. contact either morco or linhofstudio.

Both carry the full silvestri systems, are really helpfull and positively help you to go to them and try out the silvestris.

Marc
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100216\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Marc,

See PM.

Thx!
Logged
Morgan_Moore
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2217


WWW
« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2007, 01:07:12 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote
Sorry I should also say, is the truwide the best solution of that type as it requires shift lenses.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100214\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I dont see why the true wide requires shift lenses

It just requres shift lenses to get shift !

If you see the difference

Morco faded away when I was considering a Silvetstri

My question was compatability with copal 3 for mazimum coverage


SMM
Logged

Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
www.sammorganmoore.com -photography
thsinar
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2066


WWW
« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2007, 01:41:23 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote
with the p25 you have also to know that you have to use the lcc method from c1

. as far i know the lense casts have little or nothing to do with microlenses, but with the specific sensor design from kodak. so all kodak sensors starting with the kodak 16mp back, their 35mm 14n and slr cameras, the phase backs, imacon backs and sinar backs as long they used kodak sensors suffer from more or less strong casts with wideangles,- but not only than.

as said in my previous post, color casts have different origins and causes. Summarized, one can explain it like this:

- the microlenses sensors is one reason: this makes them not suitable for use on view cameras at all, and I would really no recommend it at all, if shift, tilts & swings are needed.

- a second reason are shifts with the light falling at a different angle on different areas of the sensor: this can be corrected with a white reference for the corresponding shift. Obviously this happens with all types of sensors.

- a third reason is the linear response of the sensor (or non-linear) to the light, from shadows to highlights: this is again sensor related, and in this Kodak sensors have a less linear response than Dalsa sensors, starting efectively with the 16 MPx models. This can also be correted by white references for EACH shot, when it happens.

Thierry
Logged

Thierry Hagenauer
thasia_cn@yahoo.com
Danijela D. Karic
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 221


« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2007, 08:51:54 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote
as said in my previous post, color casts have different origins and causes. Summarized, one can explain it like this:

- the microlenses sensors is one reason: this makes them not suitable for use on view cameras at all, and I would really no recommend it at all, if shift, tilts & swings are needed.

- a second reason are shifts with the light falling at a different angle on different areas of the sensor: this can be corrected with a white reference for the corresponding shift. Obviously this happens with all types of sensors.

- a third reason is the linear response of the sensor (or non-linear) to the light, from shadows to highlights: this is again sensor related, and in this Kodak sensors have a less linear response than Dalsa sensors, starting efectively with the 16 MPx models. This can also be correted by white references for EACH shot, when it happens.

Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100225\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hi Thierry,

 I am new here and would like to ask you if the color cast is visible in B&W, and if the desired end result is in fact black and white, does it really matter at all?

If the question sounds a little boorish to anyone, pardon my impatience.

I am considering ALPA 12SWA with one of the DBs » __e75__HD3__P45+ and few lenses to start:

                                   Schneider Apo-Digitar 5.6/47mm XL decentered
                                   Schneider Apo-Digitar 5.6/24mm XL ____ or ____ Rodenstock Apo-Sironar 4.5/28mm

I was told that Leaf goes nicely with ALPA Cameras, mostly 70 to 80% of ALPA users purchased Leaf Back. However, considering the downfall of the Leaf system shortcomings I am avoiding it even though their representatives are more than happy to assist at any given time.

So my choices are H3D which I really like I have to admit that, and P45 which I can't say
much since I have not tried it and further more not many people are complaining.

One DB that I found publicly silent until the announcement of Hy6 is Sinar Models,
so the Sinar Hy6 concept better be good or else???. Reading through the threads of few customers I am happy to see that e75 supports all platforms with the appropriate adapter of course. However, I have failed to find one ALPA customer with one of the models, perhaps e75 which is the one I would consider.

Apparently all models with the exception of Leaf Aptus require more than one cable, how many? not sure.

Any info would be highly appreciated, perhaps one of your customers would be of great help. PLEASE, `NO SALESMANS`

On the account of the lenses;
                                   Schneider Apo-Digitar 5.6/24mm XL ____ or ____ Rodenstock Apo-Sironar 4.5/28mm

I was told that  Schneider Apo-Digitar 5.6/24mm XL is more designed for Landscapes & has a bigger Image Circle, and Rodenstock Apo-Sironar 4.5/28mm is designed more for table top, so which one?. The price difference is enough for me to go for Apo-Digitar 5.6/24mm XL if the performance of the Rodenstock’s Apo-Sironar 4.5/28mm is not apparent to justify the price difference.

Any thoughts on Lenses would be of great help too, because I would like to receive the Alpa System including the digital back, adapters, etc. by the 1st of March.

Anyone using distance Laser Meter by BOSCH, LEICA, HILTTI ?

This turned in to a rather more than one question, but what can I do since the total cost is a little more then few bags of money.

Thank You for your patience.

Ciao

Danijela
Logged
yaya
Guest
« Reply #16 on: February 11, 2007, 12:11:59 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote
I was told that Leaf goes nicely with ALPA Cameras, mostly 70 to 80% of ALPA users purchased Leaf Back. However, considering the downfall of the Leaf system shortcomings I am avoiding it even though their representatives are more than happy to assist at any given time.

Danijela,

First I'd like to welcome you onto this board,

Sencond, respectfuly, before making any decision may I suggest that you test the Leaf system compared to the other 3, on an ALPA? I believe this will greatly help in uderstanding why the first part of your sentence is so true.

Please feel free to contact me on/ off line for any further clariffications.

Good luck!!!

Yair
« Last Edit: February 11, 2007, 03:47:04 AM by yaya » Logged
rethmeier
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 780


WWW
« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2007, 01:41:48 AM »
ReplyReply

Danijela,

make sure you put the eMotion-75 on your testing list.

Cheers,

Willem.
Logged

Willem Rethmeier
www.willemrethmeier.com
Sydney Australia
rainer_v
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1130


WWW
« Reply #18 on: February 11, 2007, 02:19:53 AM »
ReplyReply

i am using the e75 together with a siimilar camera than the alpa12swa. its a gottschalt camera together with a set of sinar rodenstock HR and digital optics starting with 28mm.
works very good so far.
 the 28hr is more expansive, but:
it allows you movements up or sidewards of app. 12mm,- so the image circle of the optic is somehow bigger than the 24xl.
it has less fall-off so you can work without centerfilter, with the 24xk you should use a cf.
the 28hr is sharp till the edges even at f4, the 24xl wants too be stopped down 2stops for best performance.

the color casts should not have  effect  if you work in b+w,
i think they are not strong enough to change the luminance significant.

some additional advices for testing, sure there are many more....
shoot some images where saturated blue sky is in the image to see cf issues.
shoot one image with a neutral grey wall to see color shifts.
take care you have enough time to learn how to handle the backs, esp. the conversions,- otherwise it might be difficult to have anything said by your test.
with phase you should use in any case their LCC method. same with sinar and leaf with white references. try with sinar for on location shots the brumbaer software also.
make sure that you will get the SAME back which you tested if you decide to buy it.
the things are not going all about quality, so if one back is good does not mean that the next is also the same. esp. with  the cf issue you may have luck with one back but you might not have luck with another for system immanent sensor tolerances.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2007, 03:32:43 AM by rehnniar » Logged

rainer viertlböck
architecture photographer
munich / germany

www.tangential.de
thsinar
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2066


WWW
« Reply #19 on: February 11, 2007, 03:40:29 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote
Hi Thierry,

 I am new here and would like to ask you if the color cast is visible in B&W, and if the desired end result is in fact black and white, does it really matter at all?

I am considering ALPA 12SWA with one of the DBs » __e75__HD3__P45+ and few lenses to start:

One DB that I found publicly silent until the announcement of Hy6 is Sinar Models,
so the Sinar Hy6 concept better be good or else???. Reading through the threads of few customers I am happy to see that e75 supports all platforms with the appropriate adapter of course. However, I have failed to find one ALPA customer with one of the models, perhaps e75 which is the one I would consider.

Apparently all models with the exception of Leaf Aptus require more than one cable, how many? not sure.

Any info would be highly appreciated, perhaps one of your customers would be of great help. PLEASE, `NO SALESMANS`

Ciao

Danijela
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100262\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Dear Danijela,

Thanks first to contact me and welcome as a new member here on this forum.

- I will not answer your questions about lenses: rehnniar has already done it here, and many others in this forum are certainly more qualified then myself for this. Fur sure, the Rodenstock 28 HR is a fantastic lens, allowing a lot of shifts and still absolutely shar in the edges, with a bigger image circle and without the need of a centre filter. As for the camera platform: I would recommend you to speak to rehnniar, since he has so much experience, with many systems tested and used already.

- Your question about color casts and centrefold effect: surely the effect in B&W won't be that disturbing and may even not be visible, depending on the degree and kind of color cast. Though, it might affect your image in the tonal values and give you different graduations rendition in certain parts of the subject, depending on the colours and saturations. This differences in tonal values might change the image from a one without colour cast, in BW: the difference might no be so big and acceptable, especially if you don't have the comparison with a reference B&W without the effect. Anyway, certainly not that disturbing as a real colour cast in a clour image.

- As for the centrefold effect: this is another story, since this effect, when it happens, will produce a fine line in your image,certainly well visible as well in B&W. You certainy don't want this in your image, so you would have to retouch it out.

I would recommend you to test carefully the way Rainer has explained in his post above (shoot saturated skies, shoot a neutral grey evenly lit background, etc ...)

- Annoucement of Sinar Hy6: I think there are a few treads here on LLF with all the information (technical and commercial) about the launch of this new camera by Sinar. Feel free to ask me more precise questions about it, if you don't find the answers you wish to have.

- Yes, the eMotion 75 can be adapted to all common MF platforms with the respective adapter, incl. the new Hy6: you certainly don't need to buy another back when changing the camera. system.

- No, Sinarbacks do no need more cables than any other model: it also uses only one sync cable when needed.

- as said, rehnniar (Rainer) is a very trustful person to speak about and get information, as well as rethmeier (Willem Rethmeier) here, or even others on this forum. If you need any other contacts, let me know and give me some time to send you contacts.

I hope this answers in an understandable way.

Thanks and all the best,
Thierry
Logged

Thierry Hagenauer
thasia_cn@yahoo.com
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 15 »   Top of Page
Print
Jump to:  

Ad
Ad
Ad