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Author Topic: Backs for architecture/commercial photography  (Read 79520 times)
thsinar
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« Reply #20 on: February 11, 2007, 03:57:38 AM »
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... and here some additional information about the technical differences and facts between 33 MPx Dalsa and 39 MPx sensors: I was thinking that it might interest a lot of you here. See attachment.

Thierry
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #21 on: February 11, 2007, 04:51:53 AM »
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hello

hi, guys I still need some word on which back can work properly for architecture taking into account that shifting is involved.

as explained by others, I'm now considering ditching the phase one out of my list. I'm including the leaf aptus 28 in my list after trading in my proback I might be able to fit it in my budget.

which backs can work properly with least headache ?
sorry I can't really consider the Sinar as support here isn't as good as phaseone or leaf.
I'm meeting phase one on monday and maybe leaf on tuesday or wed.

cheers

edit : I'll have to say, Sinar is distributed by a smaller outfit here, hence is it more of a perceived customer service than real experience.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2007, 05:23:43 AM by rueyloon » Logged
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« Reply #22 on: February 11, 2007, 08:34:16 AM »
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I'm including the leaf aptus 28 in my list after trading in my proback I might be able to fit it in my budget.

I assume that you mean Aptus 22, as there isn't a 28.

Note that despite popular legend, both Phase and Aptus 22 and 75 backs all may require colour cast correction when used with wide angle lenses and shifts.

The phase software has better integrated software for colour cast correction than leaf (at least it has in the current version), but on the downside, it may need more correction than with the leaf which in some circumstances (very wide lenses like 24XL) may mean that the aptus remains a better choice.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2007, 08:34:34 AM by free1000 » Logged

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« Reply #23 on: February 11, 2007, 08:44:54 AM »
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I assume that you mean Aptus 22, as there isn't a 28.

Note that despite popular legend, both Phase and Aptus 22 and 75 backs all may require colour cast correction when used with wide angle lenses and shifts.

The phase software has better integrated software for colour cast correction than leaf (at least it has in the current version), but on the downside, it may need more correction than with the leaf which in some circumstances (very wide lenses like 24XL) may mean that the aptus remains a better choice.
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I mean the 28mp back the aptus 65
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« Reply #24 on: February 11, 2007, 01:27:46 PM »
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Hi Thierry,

 II am considering ALPA 12SWA with one of the DBs Ľ __e75__HD3__P45+ and few lenses to start:

                                   Schneider Apo-Digitar 5.6/47mm XL decentered
                                   Schneider Apo-Digitar 5.6/24mm XL ____ or ____ Rodenstock Apo-Sironar 4.5/28mm

Any thoughts on Lenses would be of great help too, because I would like to receive the Alpa System including the digital back, adapters, etc. by the 1st of March.

Ciao

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100262\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Dear Danijela,
I own and use the alpa12swa for 3,5 years with b&w film (a Rollex back), and  for the last 2 years I use my Alpas (have added a TC)  with an eMotion 22. I have an Apo- Helvetar 48mm (use it with film and digital), a Digitar 35mm, a Digitar 24mm. I agree that a 24mm Digitar is an extreme lens and suffers from colorcast with even limited shifts on an e22. With  the brumbaer software an Alpa and an e22 is a joy to use on location, and I do not care about center filters anymore.
Yevgeny
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Prakash Patel
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« Reply #25 on: February 11, 2007, 02:04:13 PM »
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i am using the e75 together with a siimilar camera than the alpa12swa. its a gottschalt camera together with a set of sinar rodenstock HR and digital optics starting with 28mm.
works very good so far.
 the 28hr is more expansive, but:
it allows you movements up or sidewards of app. 12mm,- so the image circle of the optic is somehow bigger than the 24xl.
it has less fall-off so you can work without centerfilter, with the 24xk you should use a cf.
the 28hr is sharp till the edges even at f4, the 24xl wants too be stopped down 2stops for best performance.

the color casts should not have  effect  if you work in b+w,
i think they are not strong enough to change the luminance significant.

some additional advices for testing, sure there are many more....
shoot some images where saturated blue sky is in the image to see cf issues.
shoot one image with a neutral grey wall to see color shifts.
take care you have enough time to learn how to handle the backs, esp. the conversions,- otherwise it might be difficult to have anything said by your test.
with phase you should use in any case their LCC method. same with sinar and leaf with white references. try with sinar for on location shots the brumbaer software also.
make sure that you will get the SAME back which you tested if you decide to buy it.
the things are not going all about quality, so if one back is good does not mean that the next is also the same. esp. with  the cf issue you may have luck with one back but you might not have luck with another for system immanent sensor tolerances.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100285\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I apologize if this is drifting off topic......

Rainer,

The 28HR from your description sounds like fascinating lens........I can't seem to find the right site for lens data. Do you have a link?
(BTW....your observations and remarks are costing alot shooters alot of money   )

I have the 24xl...shooting on an A22 back. Center filter is not necessarily required when you use the Custom Gain Adjuster to remove color casts. There is a feature in the Leaf Custom Gain Adjuster utility that allows you to adjust for lens fall off from 0 to 100% in addition to correcting color casts as well as correcting CF issue. I recently did specific CF tests with an A75 using  Schneider 24xl and the 35xl lenses. The easiest way to reveal the CF issue is to shoot  a reference
file using white translucent acrylic (LCC method) with zero to maximum shifts applied to the lens being tested. It is a worth while test to confirm that the  back manufacturer has a solution to address the CF issue and color cast issue (phase,sinar, & leaf..I think Hassy also has a solution for CC issue) before signing the big check and marrying the back manufacturer.

Currently, I am using a Leaf back and there are two Leaf solutions that address the CF issue that is evident in the Dalsa chips. If you use a non shifting lens camera and show no color casts, the Wide Angle Convertor utility will remove a CF issue (if present). If you use shifting lenses, the Custom Gain Adjuster utility is a better choice since it will remove both the CF and a color cast (if present).
Currently, these utilities are applied to raw mos files prior to processing (giving you the option to select Raw processor software of your choice). It is a workaround that adds time to post.....but since I am not processing the quantity of files as a fashion shooter might its not a big deal.
It would be nicer if the software worked more efficiently......but I am very happy with the hardware and the files that are produced by the Leaf software for my application.

Rainer, your custom gottshalt with a sliding back sounds like it is a wonderful camera for architectural or landscape shooting and it seems like it works very well with the sinar back and its interchangable plates.

A couple of questions if you don't mind.

Is it possible to use other backs that do not have an interchangable mounting and still be able to use a sliding back and be able to focus a Schneider 24xl @ infinity?
What is the longest exposure the e75 allows?
How are you able to compose axial elevation symmetrical shots without a geared movements?
If I understood your previous posts correctly, the gottshalt front panel moves in all directions and is locked by one knob. How do you make micro adjustments without x and y gear movements?
I know the answer........ you are a buddhist zen monk but I thought I would ask anyway!

regards
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rethmeier
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« Reply #26 on: February 11, 2007, 03:28:56 PM »
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Prakash,
data on the 28HR:http://www.alpa.ch/files/products/152/A_Sir_dig_HR_28_Neuh_2006_d.pdf

Regarding using the Schneider 24XL with the Gottschalt and the custom made sliding back?
I don't think so.

That's why the 28HR is prefferable,it's rear element is not as close to the sensor as with the 24XL.

Regards,
Willem.


N.B I'm in the process of getting the Gottschalt  Ds-30Di with 28HR +35HR +60HR + 100HR lenses.
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Willem Rethmeier
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rainer_v
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« Reply #27 on: February 11, 2007, 04:03:47 PM »
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Is it possible to use other backs that do not have an interchangable mounting and still be able to use a sliding back and be able to focus a Schneider 24xl @ infinity?
What is the longest exposure the e75 allows?
How are you able to compose axial elevation symmetrical shots without a geared movements?
If I understood your previous posts correctly, the gottshalt front panel moves in all directions and is locked by one knob. How do you make micro adjustments without x and y gear movements?
I know the answer........ you are a buddhist zen monk but I thought I would ask anyway!

regards
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100353\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

i am not sure if you can mount non-interchangeable mounts on the sliding back, probably not, at least not rotatable. maybe he could make with hassy adapter the sliding back also, but i am not sure about that.
the camera has millimeter scales on all moving parts, and meanwhile you move with the outer knob there is a second inner ring to fix the movement, this knobs are for the side movements on the back and for the lense movements on the front. it needs a little bit pactice but not that much, ... andthere are many monasteries where you can live in nearly for free meanwhile you exercise that,- although
« Last Edit: February 11, 2007, 04:07:06 PM by rehnniar » Logged

rainer viertlbŲck
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BJNY
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« Reply #28 on: February 11, 2007, 05:28:29 PM »
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Willem and Rainer,
What is the DS-30Di, as it's not on Gottschalt's site?  I photograph still life, NOT interiors or architecture, and so like to own precise things.  Does the Gottschalt have geared front AND rear movements.  How does it differ from an Alpa XY?  I've been curious since Rainer mentioned his customized camera over a year ago at the RobGalbraith forums.
Thank you,
Billy
« Last Edit: February 11, 2007, 05:46:47 PM by BJNY » Logged

Guillermo
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« Reply #29 on: February 11, 2007, 06:05:35 PM »
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Billy,
the Gottschalt Ds-30di is a customized built camera.
on the lens side,the lens shifts/rotates 30mm all angles.
On the rear,it has a 20mm lateral shift.

Nothing is geared.[attachment=1817:attachment][attachment=1818:attachment]
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Willem Rethmeier
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« Reply #30 on: February 11, 2007, 07:50:13 PM »
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Danijela

I use an ALPA 12 SWA with 24, 35 and 47mm Schneider Digitars. I purchased a Leaf Aptus 75, but after 9 months for problems including those mentioned here I switched to the H3D. The H3D wound up with a whole different set of problems such as niot being able to do white gain corrections unless being tethered. Hassalblad is working on these issues. Their image quality with the H3D is amazing.

You may want to take a look at Tim Griffiths website. He is an architectual photographer using the Digitars and a P45. His work is outstanding and he raves about the P45.
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rethmeier
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« Reply #31 on: February 11, 2007, 09:52:19 PM »
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Tim Griffith uses a Cambo WDS last time I spoke with him.
The Alpa 12 SWA is excellent,however limited in movements.
No lateral shift and to shift down,you have to turn the camera back to front.
Otherwise the Alpa XY does it all,but to large for my liking.

Cheers,
Willem.
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Willem Rethmeier
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« Reply #32 on: February 11, 2007, 10:36:13 PM »
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Danijela

I use an ALPA 12 SWA with 24, 35 and 47mm Schneider Digitars. I purchased a Leaf Aptus 75, but after 9 months for problems including those mentioned here I switched to the H3D. The H3D wound up with a whole different set of problems such as niot being able to do white gain corrections unless being tethered. Hassalblad is working on these issues. Their image quality with the H3D is amazing.

You may want to take a look at Tim Griffiths website. He is an architectual photographer using the Digitars and a P45. His work is outstanding and he raves about the P45.
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Michael,

So what back goes on the Alpa now?

Asher Kelman

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« Reply #33 on: February 12, 2007, 12:31:37 AM »
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Willem and Rainer,
What is the DS-30Di, as it's not on Gottschalt's site?† I photograph still life, NOT interiors or architecture, and so like to own precise things.† Does the Gottschalt have geared front AND rear movements.† How does it differ from an Alpa XY?† I've been curious since Rainer mentioned his customized camera over a year ago at the RobGalbraith forums.
Thank you,
Billy
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100383\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Billy,

if your work is mostly stills, then I am not sure if Alpa, Gottschalk and such cameras are for you.

I would in this case suggest a p3 or a cheaper version like the f3.

Thierry
« Last Edit: February 12, 2007, 12:33:09 AM by thsinar » Logged

Thierry Hagenauer
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Prakash Patel
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« Reply #34 on: February 12, 2007, 12:38:53 AM »
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I'm at the point where I'm considering gunning for the next stage of my career and trying to leap over to the bigger players. I have a kodak pro back, but it is too limiting and I do corporate work which includes much "standard" photography such as architecture, landscape, buildings, cars, people etc etc.. but I do want to  move into architecture photography in a bigger way.

I feel when I'm doing an architecture shoot, it mirrors alot of my personal work as it involves alot of walking around, looking and waiting for the right light.

My current plan is to sell the proback and get either a p21 or aptus 17, and use it on a truwide with nikkor lenses. I do have an arca swiss 69, but I can't afford going for the digitar lenses.

I've read that there are some backs which are unsuitable for use with shifting lenses, which are these ? I know the p30 is one of them.

The local currency is about 1.5x that of the USD hence everything to me is about 50% more than what you guys experience.

I'm now using a canon/5D and a Mamiya/proback system.
If cost is going to be a big factor, I might sell the whole mamiya set just to get a digital back for architecture and let the 5D take care of the rest.

I have another section in my company which deals with weddings photography, hence I'll still be keeping the 5D for that.

I hope you guys will share your views and advice on this.

thanks

cheers
rgs
rueyloon

http://www.rueyloon.com
http://www.36frames.com
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100132\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

rueyloon

Given your situation, I think you are on the right track. Making 16 bit captures will give you more color information and flexibilty in postproduction. Adding an 18mp or 22mp back will also allow you to use your current camera systems with the appropriate adapters.

I have used the truewide with several phase backs and it works very well. Initially, I used it with an H20 (36x36mm sensor) the focal lengths translate 1:1 in 35mm systems. When you move to the 31x43 or 33x44 sensor size (18mp backs) your 28mm pc will give you a wider coverage. I would definately  look @some of the zeiss optics that Dustbak has recommended.......He knows this system very well. The 36x48 or 37x49 sensor size will vignette in the corners from the copal 3 shutter of the truewide. The Nikon or Olympus shift lenses are retrofocus lens designs and will produce some barrel distortions on the edges as well some chromatic abberations....depending on
your subject matter and clients this may or may not be an issue.

You can spend 3k to 5k (used or new) usd$ and have a slidingback camera with 2 or 3
nikon shift lenses(as well as any other nikon mount lenses.......camera can also be used for studio work) or spend three to four  times that amount for a specialized shift camera with digital lenses available new only (all these systems have been discussed on other threads).
There is another option: buy a couple of digital or wider lenses and use them on your Arca 6x9.
I find that my Arca works quite well for normal to telephoto work.

good luck
« Last Edit: February 12, 2007, 12:42:00 AM by Prakash Patel » Logged

Danijela D. Karic
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« Reply #35 on: February 12, 2007, 02:32:37 AM »
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Danijela,

First I'd like to welcome you onto this board,

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100270\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thank you, I already feel overwhelmed with the response of many serious photographers who actually base their response on the fact and confidence,
which Is highly appreciated.


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Sencond, respectfuly, before making any decision may I suggest that you test the Leaf system compared to the other 3, on an ALPA? I believe this will greatly help in uderstanding why the first part of your sentence is so true.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100270\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I was advised that it would take some time to hand-pick the one without the CF issue and for the available effort Leaf Representatives deserve my total respect. However, I can't say much more and honestly I am in a practical way forced to resist talking/thinking about many of the Leaf Aptus attributes for some obvious and some unpredictable reasons/potential-consequences, although I am keeping the idea in soft focus for the near future I hope.


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Danijela,

Please feel free to contact me on/ off line for any further clariffications.

Good luck!!!

Yair
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100270\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I am publicly thinking, what would Phase One Annual turn-over be, if they had
representatives like Yaya & Thierry?   On the other hand, what would Leaf/Sinar's
Annual turnover be, if they had the Phase One Software/Workflow efficiency?

I hope I will end up with the wise and practical decision.

Thank you
Danijela
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Danijela D. Karic
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« Reply #36 on: February 12, 2007, 02:46:04 AM »
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Danijela,

make sure you put the eMotion-75 on your testing list.

Cheers,

Willem.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100279\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hi William,

eMotion-75 is definitely on my list. Therefore I would really appreciate if Thierry could forward the contact of
at least one photographer using combo Sinar/ALPA 12SWA or any ALPA so that I may proceed in the right direction.

Regards
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thsinar
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« Reply #37 on: February 12, 2007, 02:48:48 AM »
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Hi William,

eMotion-75 is definitely on my list. Therefore I would really appreciate if Thierry could forward the contact of
at least one photographer using combo Sinar/ALPA 12SWA or any ALPA so that I may proceed in the right direction.

Regards
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100438\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Dear Danijela,

I have already asked some distributors to give me a contact willing to inform about his work with it.

Will let you know,
Thierry
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Danijela D. Karic
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« Reply #38 on: February 12, 2007, 03:51:00 AM »
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i am using the e75 together with a siimilar camera than the alpa12swa. its a gottschalt camera together with a set of sinar rodenstock HR and digital optics starting with 28mm.
works very good so far.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100285\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I had a chance to use ALPA 12SWA with film 6x9 recently owned by a fellow photographer  and I must say I was very impressed. It Is nice and small to walk around if need be etc. and that alone made my day. With Gottschalt I never had a chance to see one and honestly never hear anybody talking about it. I guess it is rather more limited/custom made camera then ALPA.


Quote
it allows you movements up or sidewards of app. 12mm,- so the image circle of the optic is somehow bigger than the 24xl.
it has less fall-off so you can work without centerfilter, with the 24xk you should use a cf.
the 28hr is sharp till the edges even at f4, the 24xl wants too be stopped down 2stops for best performance.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100285\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I loved 24XL but I am not sure if my eyes are tired from too much pressure of thinking and looking to much at details, because I think I noticed not too obvious but still a slight and apparent barrel distortion with 24XL,  I hope Iím wrong on this one, perhaps that particular lens was just like that or else..., I have to see that again.

I could not find anybody I know with 28HR, but I was promised to wait until Friday, perhaps it is worth the extra stretch.


Quote
the color casts should not have  effect  if you work in b+w,
i think they are not strong enough to change the luminance significant.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100285\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I thought so, but I had to ask since I never used any of the Digital Backs with the Super-Wide lenses.
Anyway, I prefer to have a second opinion and Iím glad to hear the confirmation.


Quote
some additional advices for testing, sure there are many more....
shoot some images where saturated blue sky is in the image to see cf issues.
shoot one image with a neutral grey wall to see color shifts.
take care you have enough time to learn how to handle the backs, esp. the conversions,- otherwise it might be difficult to have anything said by your test.
with phase you should use in any case their LCC method. same with sinar and leaf with white references. try with sinar for on location shots the brumbaer software also.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100285\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thank you for the advice. I guess I will have to test even P45 for the CF issue since I just read here on the LL forum about the Lightroom  and P45 CF issue, I guess it sounds more like the Lightroom Software/Compatibility issue.

All The Best

Danijela
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Danijela D. Karic
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« Reply #39 on: February 12, 2007, 04:25:38 AM »
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Dear Danijela,

Thanks first to contact me and welcome as a new member here on this forum.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100294\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Happy to bee here.


Quote
Dear Danijela,

- I will not answer your questions about lenses: rehnniar has already done it here, and many others in this forum are certainly more qualified then myself for this. Fur sure, the Rodenstock 28 HR is a fantastic lens, allowing a lot of shifts and still absolutely shar in the edges, with a bigger image circle and without the need of a centre filter. As for the camera platform: I would recommend you to speak to rehnniar, since he has so much experience, with many systems tested and used already.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100294\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Fair enough.


Quote
Dear Danijela,

- Your question about color casts and centrefold effect: surely the effect in B&W won't be that disturbing and may even not be visible, depending on the degree and kind of color cast. Though, it might affect your image in the tonal values and give you different graduations rendition in certain parts of the subject, depending on the colours and saturations. This differences in tonal values might change the image from a one without colour cast, in BW: the difference might no be so big and acceptable, especially if you don't have the comparison with a reference B&W without the effect. Anyway, certainly not that disturbing as a real colour cast in a clour image.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100294\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Theoretically covered that, but still curious to test it.


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Dear Danijela,

- As for the centrefold effect: this is another story, since this effect, when it happens, will produce a fine line in your image,certainly well visible as well in B&W. You certainy don't want this in your image, so you would have to retouch it out.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100294\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

You are right, I don't want centerfold issue to be apparent at all in any of my images, but also I donít want to even think about
Retouching even though I donít have anything against retouching, in fact I support it but for Fashion & Composite Images, etc.

So any example of CF issue is instant disqualification as far as I am concerned.

Trying to explain to my Clients when shooting tethered with the CF issue on the screen and letting them know that now they have to pay extra for retouching is preposterous, It's not me!

Perhaps some photographers have few angles when it comes to moments like that, I donít.

Regards
Danijela
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