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Author Topic: 33 MPX Dalsa & 39 MPx Kodak Sensors  (Read 88678 times)
thsinar
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« on: February 11, 2007, 04:05:06 AM »
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hi All,

Since many have asked those last days about differences between sensors, I was thinking that this topic might interest a lot of you. It is a bit technical, however containing a lot of interesting information concerning the differences between 2 current sensors from 2 different companies: 33 MPx from Dalsa and the 39 MPx from Kodak.

A little addendum: most of the information comes from information collected by Sinar, and from our technicians.

Best to all,
Thierry
« Last Edit: February 11, 2007, 08:10:19 AM by thsinar » Logged

Thierry Hagenauer
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BJNY
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« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2007, 09:54:46 AM »
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Thank you Thierry,

Two questions:
1) Why does the Kodak sensor excel at long exposures?

2) Will the eVolution75 be free of pattern moire?  I'm looking into acquiring since a Precision M22 is unavailable here in the U.S.

Billy
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Guillermo
thsinar
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« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2007, 10:50:01 AM »
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Quote
Thank you Thierry,

Two questions:
1) Why does the Kodak sensor excel at long exposures?

2) Will the eVolution75 be free of pattern moire?  I'm looking into acquiring since a Precision M22 is unavailable here in the U.S.

Billy
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100319\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


hi Blly,

instead of the eVolution 75, there is also the possibility of the SB 54 H (22 Mpx), which gives fantastic results, in 4- or in 16-shot modes. Of course the single shot is also availabe with this 54 H. The eVolution 75 will have as well multishot capability, thus not the Moiré issues like with a single shot.

As for your first question: I have no information that this is related to the sensor. Noice due to long exposure can be reduced by noice filters integrated in the software. But you have to find a compromise, the tendency is to loose also details if filtering is too strong, among other issues.
But i will ask for some more information about it, and come back to you if I find it.

Best regards,
thierry
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2007, 11:02:51 AM »
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Thierry,
4-shot = true color (no interpolation)
16-shot = no pattern moire
Correct?
If yes, this means eVolution will have pattern moire since it's ONLY 4-shot, no?
Billy
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Guillermo
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« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2007, 11:25:20 AM »
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Hi Thierry

Thanks for the article. I'm currently using the Leaf Aptus 65.
We expect to receive the new Leaf Aptus 54 which will use the Dalsa 22MP chip.

Would you know the differences and/or benefits from any of those 2 chips.

Thanks,
Esben

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Dave Carter
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« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2007, 11:28:24 AM »
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Thierry,

Thank you for the above article.  It was of interest.
One question as I am not fimilar with multishot backs.  In 4 shot mode on the eMotion 54/75, what would be the total time to capiture an image if shutter speed is set to 1 second?  And, I presume you only press the shutter release once.  Or, do you have to cock the shutter and trip it 4 times?  (Digitar lens)
Thanks, Dave
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BJNY
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« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2007, 12:16:38 PM »
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eMotion22 + eMotion75 are single-shot only, no?
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Guillermo
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« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2007, 12:45:39 PM »
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Yes, Thanks for waking me up.  Your are correct - eMotion 75 IS single shot only.
I meant eVloution 75 which is multi-shot.
Thanks for the correction.
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thsinar
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« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2007, 03:09:35 PM »
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eMotion22 + eMotion75 are single-shot only, no?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100335\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Yes, right.

thierry
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2007, 03:09:40 PM »
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Thierry,

Thank you for the above article.  It was of interest.
One question as I am not fimilar with multishot backs.  In 4 shot mode on the eMotion 54/75, what would be the total time to capiture an image if shutter speed is set to 1 second?  And, I presume you only press the shutter release once.  Or, do you have to cock the shutter and trip it 4 times?  (Digitar lens)
Thanks, Dave
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100332\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Dave,

Multi Shot backs are really best used with an electronic shutter system.   It can be something like the Sinar P3 with CMV or CAB lenses, a Sinarcam 2 shutter on a P2, the Rollei electronic shutter system, or any host of electronic medium format cameras.     I do have one customer that uses a 54H on Multishot with a copal shutter, but that means having all the lights off including modeling lights.    That is a very complicated and problematic solution if you ask me .....

Thanks,

Matt LaPointe
National Sales Support Specialist
Sinar Bron Imaging
(219) 670-9905
mlapointe@sinarbron.com
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thsinar
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« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2007, 03:18:28 PM »
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Thierry,

Thank you for the above article.  It was of interest.
One question as I am not fimilar with multishot backs.  In 4 shot mode on the eMotion 54/75, what would be the total time to capiture an image if shutter speed is set to 1 second?  And, I presume you only press the shutter release once.  Or, do you have to cock the shutter and trip it 4 times?  (Digitar lens)
Thanks, Dave
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100332\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


same as your exposure time set on the lens: you release and the lens x-contact triggers the eMotions automatically.

Thierry
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Thierry Hagenauer
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thsinar
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« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2007, 03:25:02 PM »
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Hi Thierry

Thanks for the article. I'm currently using the Leaf Aptus 65.
We expect to receive the new Leaf Aptus 54 which will use the Dalsa 22MP chip.

Would you know the differences and/or benefits from any of those 2 chips.

Thanks,
Esben

CaptureForce
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100330\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Hi Esben,

Aptus 54 is the same sensor as the eMotion 22. The 65 is a 28 MPx, with a smaller sensor, 44x33 mm, so the crop factor is obviously different. the 28 MPx is a different sensor design making it much cheaper.

that's all I know, but Leaf certainly detailled specifications.
thierry
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2007, 04:20:26 PM »
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Thank you Thierry,

Two questions:
1) Why does the Kodak sensor excel at long exposures?

2) Will the eVolution75 be free of pattern moire?  I'm looking into acquiring since a Precision M22 is unavailable here in the U.S.

Billy
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100319\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Billy:

Precision M22's are still available in the US. In fact, they were just reduced to $19K. As long as you can live with the meager and non-adjustable ISO (rated 25, seems more like 18), this may be worth pursuing.

Also - while 16 shot is considered a "never moire" mode, it's extremely rare to get moire in 4 shot captures, although it can happen.

Steve Hendrix
PPR Digital
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Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2007, 05:37:17 PM »
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Thank you Steve and Matt,
I won't be paying $19K for an M22, since it was mentioned on another thread here that it cost as little as 10-12K Euro when paired with the Hy6 early adopter promotion.  It's a shame SinarBronUSA doesn't mirror the same promotions available in Europe...I would have been all over an M22 with Rollei6008AF to tide me over until the swapout to Hy6.
Billy

Edit:  attributed M22 (10-12K Euro) cost to correct source.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2007, 05:15:22 AM by BJNY » Logged

Guillermo
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« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2007, 12:21:59 AM »
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Quote
Thierry,

Thank you for the above article.  It was of interest.
One question as I am not fimilar with multishot backs.  In 4 shot mode on the eMotion 54/75, what would be the total time to capiture an image if shutter speed is set to 1 second?  And, I presume you only press the shutter release once.  Or, do you have to cock the shutter and trip it 4 times?  (Digitar lens)
Thanks, Dave
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100332\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Dear Dave,

the eMotions are single shot backs designed for on location work, with display, internal storage of 6 GB hard-state memory, CF-card slot, fast shooting rate of 0.9 sec/frame, etc ...

The multishot backs are the Sinarbakc 54 H (22 MPx) and the new eVolution 75 (33 MPx).

In 4 shot mode the software controls the 4 shots automatically and the exposure is released in so-called slave mode i the captureshop software. The 4 shots are taken consecutively and one can set a "delay" between the shots to let the power packs recycle within the shots, for the next one. The actual exposure time of each shot is the time you are setting on your camera shutter, being it a MF or a view camera. Acually this process is very fast, basicall 4 times the time of single shot.

From this one gets a full and true colour file, without any interpolation like one has with single shot backs. Beside all the quality advantages, such a 4-shot files can be opened as well much much faster than a single shot, simply because there is no interpolation process included during opening.

I hope this answers fully.

Best regards,
thierry
« Last Edit: February 12, 2007, 03:40:39 AM by thsinar » Logged

Thierry Hagenauer
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thsinar
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« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2007, 12:26:21 AM »
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Thank you Steve and Matt,
I won't be paying $19K for an M22, since my friend Grant in Paris paid a whole lot less during the Hy6 early adopter promotion.  It's a shame SinarBronUSA doesn't mirror the same promotions available in Europe...I would have been all over an M22 with Rollei6008AF to tide me over until the swapout to Hy6.
Billy
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100387\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Hi Billy,

I would check again the price: it has been reduced very recently.

Thierry
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Thierry Hagenauer
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thsinar
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« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2007, 02:05:03 AM »
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Thierry,
4-shot = true color (no interpolation)
16-shot = no pattern moire
Correct?
If yes, this means eVolution will have pattern moire since it's ONLY 4-shot, no?
Billy
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100327\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Dear Billy,

no exactly correct:

- 4- and 16-shot: always true colours, always "no Colour Moiré" and no interpolation, but sometimes "Pattern Moiré" = "Luminance Moiré".

Pattern or Luminance Moiré is something which can sometimes not be avoided, when 2 patterns coincide (sensor pattern with subject).

Addendum: Luminance Moiré is of course happening less with 4-Shot and even less (seldom) in 16-Shot modes. Luminance Moiré is the most difficult to take away: it is happening in the "Luminance" channel and therein is also contained the information for the sharpness. This means one cannot just "smear" (filter) it out without destroying the sharpness information and with the result of unsharp files.

Thierry
« Last Edit: February 12, 2007, 02:57:43 AM by thsinar » Logged

Thierry Hagenauer
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nik
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« Reply #17 on: February 12, 2007, 02:53:58 AM »
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So if you went to a sensor that captured all 3 primary colours at once (foveon type) you essentially get the same results as a multishot back? Basically I'm asking how we can achieve multi-shot quality with the convenience of single shot capture. Obviously it's more difficult that we hope but is this the direction sensor designers are heading towards or are they trying to do a better job with interpolation?

-Nik



Quote
Dear Dave,

the eMotions are songle shot backs designed for on location work, with display, internal storage 6 GB memory, CF-card slot, fast shooting rate of 0.9 sec/frame, etc ...

The multishot backs are the Sinarbakc 54 H (22 MPx) and the new eVolution 75 (33 MPx).

In 4 shot mode the software controls the 4 shots automatically and the exposure is released in so-called slave mode i the captureshop software. The 4 shots are taken consecutively and one can set a "delay" between the shots to let the power packs recycle within the shots, for the next one. The actual exposure time of each shot is the time you are setting on your camera shutter, being it a MF or a view camera. Acually this process is very fast, basicall 4 times the time of single shot.

From this ine gets a full and true colour file, without any interpolation like in single shot backs. Beside all the quality advantages, such a 4-shot files can be opened as well much much faster than a single shot, simply because there is no interpolation process included during opening.

I hope this answers fully.

Best regards,
thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100429\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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thsinar
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« Reply #18 on: February 12, 2007, 04:52:16 AM »
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So if you went to a sensor that captured all 3 primary colours at once (foveon type) you essentially get the same results as a multishot back? Basically I'm asking how we can achieve multi-shot quality with the convenience of single shot capture. Obviously it's more difficult that we hope but is this the direction sensor designers are heading towards or are they trying to do a better job with interpolation?

-Nik
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100441\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

hi Nick!

a not very productive answer, but that's a difficult question which I personnaly don't dare to risk too much.

Honesltly, if I would have to say I would not put a cent on my guess!
The Foveon way has been gone already a long time ago, with the results we know. For sure, this type of recording the image would bring us back to the film times. This would certainly be the dream of all and the most logical.
As for the softwares, also difficult to guess how far interpolation algorithms can be improved to a level of almost perfection, although the quality achieved so far is already amazing. But then, interpolation time will increase, asking for more powerfull processors, and so on ... Where will it stop? I personnaly don't know, but wondering as well.

Thierry
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #19 on: February 12, 2007, 09:01:34 AM »
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I'm sure Phase can come up with their own spin sheet as to why the Kodak sensor excels. they are not tied to anyone and chose to use that after all...

no personal criticism Thierry, your back looks nice product, though the lack of a screen rules it out for me.
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