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Author Topic: Talked to Sinar dealer today  (Read 19787 times)
Shara Haddad
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« Reply #40 on: February 19, 2007, 06:47:05 PM »
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Hi,

I have been looking at Leaf Aptus 75 and Sinar E75 for my new system. Today I spoke with my Phase rep and he has assured me that the new Hy6 Rolleiflex will be available with a Phase back. He told me that Phase has come to an agreeement with Franke & ??.

Can anyone confirm this? My father is helping me finance my first medium format back for a new ad campaign I am shooting and I don't want to go inthe wrong direction. Should I consider Phase One in addition to Leaf and Sinar?

Thank you
Shara Haddad
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Shara Haddad
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« Reply #41 on: February 19, 2007, 07:01:16 PM »
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None of this stuff is perfect and I guess it will all get better.

When I use my Contax my P-30 and even my A-22 I really wonder what the HY6 or new hasselblad will really give me that I don't have already, other than more cost and quite frankly more limitations.

JR
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Hello James Russell,

I am in the process of making a decision on a new medium format back for my Haselblad 503 CW. I have considered Leaf and Sinar and now have spoken with a Phase rep. They tell me Phase is now to be part of the Hy6/AFi. He tells me it would be a mistake to by Leaf or Sinar as they have centerfold issues.

I am very confused, you have used both Leaf and Phase. Can you help me with some consdierations. You say that the Hy6 and new Hasselblad won;t give you m ore than you already have. May I ask what you cirrently have and why you feel that way?

My Hasselblad 503CW and lenses have served me well with fil over the past 3 years. But now ai must shoot a new campain for the tourism ministry and really need to make a decision within the next 3 weeks.

Thank you
Shara Haddem
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James Russell
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« Reply #42 on: February 19, 2007, 11:02:13 PM »
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Hello James Russell,

I am in the process of making a decision on a new medium format back for my Haselblad 503 CW. I have considered Leaf and Sinar and now have spoken with a Phase rep. They tell me Phase is now to be part of the Hy6/AFi. He tells me it would be a mistake to by Leaf or Sinar as they have centerfold issues.

I am very confused, you have used both Leaf and Phase. Can you help me with some consdierations. You say that the Hy6 and new Hasselblad won;t give you m ore than you already have. May I ask what you cirrently have and why you feel that way?

My Hasselblad 503CW and lenses have served me well with fil over the past 3 years. But now ai must shoot a new campain for the tourism ministry and really need to make a decision within the next 3 weeks.

Thank you
Shara Haddem
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]




Shara,

I don't know what or how you shoot, so I will just go off of my experiences.

At the time I bought the A-22 I felt it produced the most film like file of any digital camera.  Especially processed in CS1.

The first 7 panels of this url. [a href=\"http://www.russellrutherfordgroup.com/fashion/]http://www.russellrutherfordgroup.com/fashion/[/url] were shot with the Leaf.

There were issues early on with connectivity of the Aptus and most of us know that Leaf's latest software version lc10 has been slow in coming and limited in features, so I learned the older V-8 software and shot mostly tethered to a G-4 Powerbook.

V-8 was stable and though also limited without a temp slider, or an easy way to batch process, it is fast simple software that works well on G4 powerbooks.

The only way to effeciently batch process the Aptus was with CS1 or CS2.

I recently added a P-30 to my contax kit and in the last few months have shot around 15,000 or so frames.

The P-30 is fast and secure tethered and non tethered.  For tethering I originally shot with my 17" G4 powerbooks and though the back would shoot fast, previews were slow to build, so I added a new 17" intel book which made the preview time much quicker.

I also shoot the P-30 un tethered and it is stable, fast and easy to use, virtually as easy as the Canon dslrs, except for the lcd which can be somewhat of a challenge to learn to read properly.

Now keep in mind these are two entirely different backs.  The A-22 is limited in useable iso to 200 and the P-30 goes to 400 clean and even 800 when actually needed in a pinch.  The A-22 is also an older style chip though covers more area (1.1 crop vs. the P-30 1.3 crop), though the P-30 has more real detail.

Phase's C-1 software is very full featured and stable software and in processing large batchs of files to make jpegs for web galleries it is IMO the most robust and best batch processing software I have used.

These are some out takes from a recent lifestyle campaign shooting with the P-30

http://www.russellrutherford.com/recent_miami/

For this 4 day shoot I shot over 5,000 frames without issue.  In fact, since this project had such a heavy schedule and required so much movement and interaction, I really thought I would shoot it with the Canon's, but out of the 4 days only used the Canon's on 3 very small occasions.

Now the bottom line.  Could I have shot this last project with my A-22.  Well some of it, but not all and at the end of the day I would have probably revereted to the Canons for the majority of it.

Could I have produced my earlier Aptus work with the P-30 . . . most definately, though I still hold to the fact that the Aptus can produce a very beautiful file.

Really, the difference between these two backs are in the useability.  The P-30 goes to much higher iso and is more stable and for stable workflow, as of today, nothing comes close to C-1.

The P-30 also will allow you to tether to virtually any comptuer and use the battery in the back to stop any connection issues and though it seems like a small thing the P-30 allows you to see the lcd image while tethering and the Aptus does not.

Out of the can the P-30 produces, IMO a much more pleasing file, though both the A-22 and the Phase can both produce stunning results.

Once again, in my opinion the Phase is today a more mature product.

It really depends on the volume you shoot, the iso you need and if the P-30's 1.3 crop factor will bother you compared to the Leaf's 1.1 crop factor.

Workflow is just another matter entriely and the Phase wins on this score hands down.

Leaf does have good customer service and is quick to respond when they have a fix, though fixes for leaf software seem to be slow in coming.

Phase relies on dealer support for tech service and training so if you go that route be sure to use a good dealer.

My dealer Dave Gallagher at Digital transitions is one of the best and for me has been available virtually 24/7, though I have had few reasons to ask for any assistance.

JR
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thsinar
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« Reply #43 on: February 20, 2007, 01:10:46 AM »
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Dear Shara,

without entering in the details (which are confidential), none of this is true!

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
Hi,

I have been looking at Leaf Aptus 75 and Sinar E75 for my new system. Today I spoke with my Phase rep and he has assured me that the new Hy6 Rolleiflex will be available with a Phase back. He told me that Phase has come to an agreeement with Franke & ??.

Can anyone confirm this? My father is helping me finance my first medium format back for a new ad campaign I am shooting and I don't want to go inthe wrong direction. Should I consider Phase One in addition to Leaf and Sinar?

Thank you
Shara Haddad
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101785\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #44 on: February 20, 2007, 03:56:58 AM »
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without entering in the details (which are confidential), none of this is true!
Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101838\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Jeje, this is part of the problem Thierry. You (Sinar , Leaf and Franke & Heidecke), should be marketing the new camera right to the possible customers (like myself) instead of hidding this details. None inform us sincererly about this camera. None has seen it, none can say about compatibilities... etc...
I think I'm starting to see it clear: The three cameras will be different too, not only the name, Am I right? They will have different mounts and software. The sinar with sinar backs, the Leaf with leaf backs and the one labeled Rollei won't be sold in europe or USA because then everyone will be buying the Rollei (I'd buy the rollei) so...

I think you need to learn from Hasselblad, and me, living in Sweden, is starting to think seriously that the best option is going the hasselblad way, which is in anyway a "less closed system" and a straight and clear marketed option, even with it's downsides.

Best Regards
Samuel
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thsinar
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« Reply #45 on: February 20, 2007, 04:15:53 AM »
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Dear Samuel,

Thanks for your post and remarks.

Please remember that I have already and many times informed in full and details about the distribution of the Sinar Hy6: all information needed by the market and by customers has been fully disclosed by myself, under the Sinar name, and in many different treads here since months ago, latest about 2 weeks ago.
Also your questions in the second part of your post have been answered already, a couple of weeks ago. None of what you are stating has ever been said by mysef.

I (we) have been as sincere as I (we) think I (we) could be, without distorsion of the truth.

If you read again what has been said and written by myself on this forum, you will find all necessary information. I don't think I have been hiding something. Simply, there are also contracts between the different parties, which do not have much interest for photographers or customers, and which are confidential as many contracts (NDA's). And which should be respected.

Please read my posts.

Thanks for your understanding and best regards,
Thierry

Quote
Jeje, this is part of the problem Thierry. You (Sinar , Leaf and Franke & Heidecke), should be marketing the new camera right to the possible customers (like myself) instead of hidding this details. None inform us sincererly about this camera. None has seen it, none can say about compatibilities... etc...
I think I'm starting to see it clear: The three cameras will be different too, not only the name, Am I right? They will have different mounts and software. The sinar with sinar backs, the Leaf with leaf backs and the one labeled Rollei won't be sold in europe or USA because then everyone will be buying the Rollei (I'd buy the rollei) so...

I think you need to learn from Hasselblad, and me, living in Sweden, is starting to think seriously that the best option is going the hasselblad way, which is in anyway a "less closed system" and a straight and clear marketed option, even with it's downsides.

Best Regards
Samuel
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101866\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
« Last Edit: February 20, 2007, 04:18:46 AM by thsinar » Logged

Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #46 on: February 20, 2007, 05:19:40 AM »
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I hope leaf users don't kill me for saying this shara but it seems most people who buy the leaf aptus 75 have big  serious problems with it, it seems mainly with center line issues but also with the software. Also I hear the A65 has big color problems. Speaking from experience, none of which your leaf rep will tell you about. I haven't heard anyone having any problems with the phase P30. I have the P21 which is great also, no problems at all. It used to be that people thought the leaf files looked better than the phase but no one claims that any more. i would advise against buying a leaf.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2007, 05:22:03 AM by awofinden » Logged
yaya
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« Reply #47 on: February 20, 2007, 05:31:40 AM »
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I hope leaf users don't kill me for saying this shara but it seems most people who buy the leaf aptus 75 have big  serious problems with it, it seems mainly with center line issues but also with the software. Also I hear the A65 has big color problems. Speaking from experience, none of which your leaf rep will tell you about. I haven't heard anyone having any problems with the phase P30. I have the P21 which is great also, no problems at all. It used to be that people thought the leaf files looked better than the phase but no one claims that any more. i would advise against buying a leaf.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101872\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Nobody's going to kill anyone Aon, but since Shara is looking for first hand experience, I'd strongly suggest that she gets first hand advice i.e from users of the products in question...

I hope you take this as a constructive comment,

Thanks

Yair
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James Russell
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« Reply #48 on: February 20, 2007, 06:23:49 AM »
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Nobody's going to kill anyone Aon, but since Shara is looking for first hand experience, I'd strongly suggest that she gets first hand advice i.e from users of the products in question...

I hope you take this as a constructive comment,

Thanks

Yair
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101873\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I suggest that when anyone test one of these backs, to test them in the same envrionment as they actually work on their most pressured day.  

If you shoot 1,200 frames a day tethered, then test it that way and then have the reps assist you in making jpegs for web galleries with multiple settings to see if the software and the hardware hold up under your exact use.

In your test, shoot tethered, pull the cord and try to restart the programs, or try to edit on set while your shooting.  For me these are the unforeseen things that come up during a shoot and can make the difference between getting the shot or not.

Pixel peeping and comparing files can tell you a few things, but it usually take weeks, even months to really learn how to move a file around to your style of photography, regardless of that style.

Getting the shot and processing it for web galleries are the first parts of the process that must be stable, fast and secure and regardless of you camera platform or back choice, test them in the worst case sceanrios then you will feel secure when you step out to work.

JR
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william
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« Reply #49 on: February 20, 2007, 08:28:48 AM »
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Just one little thing: Dave Gallagher is with Capture Integration, not Digital Transitions.  I got my P30 from Dave, and he and the rest of the people there are indeed great.


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My dealer Dave Gallagher at Digital transitions is one of the best and for me has been available virtually 24/7, though I have had few reasons to ask for any assistance.
JR
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« Last Edit: February 20, 2007, 08:29:24 AM by william » Logged
hcubell
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« Reply #50 on: February 20, 2007, 08:37:48 AM »
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Dear Shara,

without entering in the details (which are confidential), none of this is true!

Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101838\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I understand your frustration, Thierry, in trying to get your point across that Phase backs are not formally part of the Hy6 program. However, there continues to be great uncertainty in some quarters as to just what that means in practical terms. It would be helpful if you could explain whether it will be possible for a customer to buy a Hy6 from Sinar or Leaf without a back that, with an adapter made by Phase or someone else(or perhaps a version of the Phase back configured to fit on the Hy6), would allow the customer to mount the Phase back on the Hy6 and the camera would then work "perfectly". Or, will the camera not recognize any digital back other than a Leaf or Sinar back, just like the H3D won't recognize and operate with any back other than the one sold with the camera? In other words, is the Hy6 going to be an "open" platform like the H2 or "closed" like the H3?
This should be easy to clarify. [G]
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awofinden
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« Reply #51 on: February 20, 2007, 08:48:46 AM »
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I suggest that when anyone test one of these backs, to test them in the same envrionment as they actually work on their most pressured day. 

If you shoot 1,200 frames a day tethered, then test it that way and then have the reps assist you in making jpegs for web galleries with multiple settings to see if the software and the hardware hold up under your exact use.

In your test, shoot tethered, pull the cord and try to restart the programs, or try to edit on set while your shooting.  For me these are the unforeseen things that come up during a shoot and can make the difference between getting the shot or not.

Pixel peeping and comparing files can tell you a few things, but it usually take weeks, even months to really learn how to move a file around to your style of photography, regardless of that style.

Getting the shot and processing it for web galleries are the first parts of the process that must be stable, fast and secure and regardless of you camera platform or back choice, test them in the worst case sceanrios then you will feel secure when you step out to work.

JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101876\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Well, I partially agree with you, personally I would be too chicken to test a back on a job and re-creating what a job is like with a test just doesn't work, bit of a catch 22 really. Also, like you say it takes weeks to really work out a back and some problems just won't come up on a test with a rep there. Another problem is that people have been testing leaf backs, buying them and finding that they have the centrefold problem. The demo backs never seem to have the centreline problem it seems. So in this instance testing the back would not be much help to you. I think I remember a (cough cough) certain person of very high credibility having all sorts of problems with the A65 so that rules that out for me at least. Because of this it seems there isn't much point in even putting the effort into testing the leaf backs. Another thing I've learned is that  putting any weight into what software will be available in the future is of no use, it often doesn't come. It is all a bit harsh but I really feel for the photographer asking our advice who's getting help form her dad, I'd hate to see her end up with a camera she can't even use for a couple of months while they send her backs untill she gets one that works. She should test backs before buying if she can, but she should also be aware of whats happened to other leaf owners who visit this forum.
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thsinar
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« Reply #52 on: February 20, 2007, 08:56:46 AM »
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I understand your frustration, Thierry, in trying to get your point across that Phase backs are not formally part of the Hy6 program. However, there continues to be great uncertainty in some quarters as to just what that means in practical terms. It would be helpful if you could explain whether it will be possible for a customer to buy a Hy6 from Sinar or Leaf without a back that, with an adapter made by Phase or someone else(or perhaps a version of the Phase back configured to fit on the Hy6), would allow the customer to mount the Phase back on the Hy6 and the camera would then work "perfectly". Or, will the camera not recognize any digital back other than a Leaf or Sinar back, just like the H3D won't recognize and operate with any back other than the one sold with the camera? In other words, is the Hy6 going to be an "open" platform like the H2 or "closed" like the H3?
This should be easy to clarify. [G]
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101889\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I understand everybody's questions and can (partly) answer like following:

- It will certainly be possible to buy a Sinar Hy6 camera body without any digital back, as well from Sinar distributors in all countries other than JP, CN and RU, as well as from F&H in Japan, China and Russia: do not forget that this camera is meant for the use with film as well, and that some customers having their back already might wish to adapt it to this new platform.
- As such, Sinar does not has the upper-hand anymore on what happens thereafter.
- If another back manufacturer than Sinar will be able (and willing) to produce adapter plates with all the features and connection available on this Hy6? I would not allow myself to answer here for other companies. But it has to be known that it needs the command and connections protocols.
- I do not wish, and am not able to answer for Leaf with regards to your first question.
- I am not frutrated (yet!), and am willing to explain whatever can still be explained. I am just thinking that it doesn't need to repeat myself since many has been said and stated and informed by myself on LLF already, since the begining

I hope this is helpful, from the Sinar point of view.

Thanks and best regards,
Thierry
« Last Edit: February 20, 2007, 09:07:46 AM by thsinar » Logged

Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #53 on: February 20, 2007, 09:12:03 AM »
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I understand everybody's questions and can (partly) answer like following:

- It will certainly be possible to buy a Sinar Hy6 camera body without any digital back, as well from Sinar distributors in most countries, as from F&H in Japan, China and Russia: do not forget that this camera is meant for the use with film as well, and that some customers having their back already might wish to adapt it to this new platform.
- As such, Sinar does not has the upper-hand anymore on what happens thereafter.
- If another back manufacturer than Sinar will be able (and willing) to produce adapter plates with all the features and connection available on this Hy6? I would not allow myself to answer here for other companies. But it has to be known that it needs the command and connections protocols.
- I do not wish, and am not able to answer for Leaf with regards to your first question.
- I am not frutrated (yet!), and am willing to explain whatever can still be explained. I am just thinking that it doesn't need to repeat myself since many has been said and stated and informed by myself on LLF already, since the begining

I hope this is helpful, from the Sinar point of view.

Thanks and best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101891\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Thierry,


One question remains with me. Allright you do need to know communication protocols with the camera to be able to 'talk' to it to get all functionality between back and camera.

Well, now I am thinking about it, 2 questions (or even several). Will Sinar have some sort of SDK (or other kit) for 3rd parties that want to create those adapters?
I assume, it will always be possible to hook up mechanically and use a sync-cord?

Much more actually will Sinar actively support others to manufacture adapterplates or will it make that particularly difficult? This is a fairly fundamental question and does show where Sinar as a company wants to be going.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2007, 09:13:35 AM by Dustbak » Logged
hcubell
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« Reply #54 on: February 20, 2007, 09:26:23 AM »
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- If another back manufacturer than Sinar will be able (and willing) to produce adapter plates with all the features and connection available on this Hy6? I would not allow myself to answer here for other companies. But it has to be known that it needs the command and connections protocols.

Thanks and best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101891\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Will the "command and connections protocols" for the Hy6 be licensed by Sinar/Jenoptic to Phase or other MFDB makers?
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thsinar
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« Reply #55 on: February 20, 2007, 09:41:48 AM »
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Thierry,
One question remains with me. Allright you do need to know communication protocols with the camera to be able to 'talk' to it to get all functionality between back and camera.

Well, now I am thinking about it, 2 questions (or even several). Will Sinar have some sort of SDK (or other kit) for 3rd parties that want to create those adapters?
I assume, it will always be possible to hook up mechanically and use a sync-cord?

Much more actually will Sinar actively support others to manufacture adapterplates or will it make that particularly difficult? This is a fairly fundamental question and does show where Sinar as a company wants to be going.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101893\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

This has already been answered long ago: we have currently no plans to produce or support other back manufacturers for their adapter system.

Best regards,
Thierry
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #56 on: February 20, 2007, 10:16:21 AM »
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This has already been answered long ago: we have currently no plans to produce or support other back manufacturers for their adapter system.

Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101902\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

That was not my question and your answer is only part of it. I have read that answer and understand it very well. There are more adapter plate manufacturers than other MFDB manufacturers. I was actually more referring to 3rd party manufacturers that have no link towards any DB manufacturer.

The way you have formulated this answer leads me to believe that Sinar (or the actual IP holder) will not be willing to license/share the communication protocols. This way a 3rd party will have to reverse engineer the protocols which is doable but harder.

In my opinion that disqualifies it from the term open system.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2007, 10:18:43 AM by Dustbak » Logged
thsinar
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« Reply #57 on: February 20, 2007, 10:20:42 AM »
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That was not my question and your answer is only part of it. I have read that answer and understand it very well. There are more adapter plate manufacturers than other MFDB manufacturers. I was actually more referring to 3rd party manufacturers that have no link towards any DB manufacturer.

The way you have formulated this answer leads me to believe that Sinar (or the actual IP holder) will not be willing to license/share the communication protocols. This way a 3rd party will have to reverse engineer the protocols which is doable but harder.

In my opinion that disqualifies it from the term open system.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101911\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Sorry, if I misread your question: I have to admit that I over-read it!

But I am as clear as for my previous answer: NO, such is currently not planed.

Best regards,
thierry
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #58 on: February 20, 2007, 10:24:02 AM »
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Sorry, if I misread your question: I have to admit that I over-read it!

Best regards,
thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101916\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]



Don't worry I am not offended. I tend to read too quickly as well.


Quote
But I am as clear as for my previous answer: NO, such is currently not planed.

Best regards,
thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101916\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I am really sorry to hear that. I believe that to be a mistake.
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Shara Haddad
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« Reply #59 on: February 20, 2007, 10:38:45 AM »
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Sorry, if I misread your question: I have to admit that I over-read it!

But I am as clear as for my previous answer: NO, such is currently not planed.

Best regards,
thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101916\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Just got off the Phone with a Phase One rep. He says you are wrong Thierry and that Phase has in fact come to an agreement to support this camera. Perhaps you can double check.

I am baffled......and I am really starting to question the entire MFDB industry and their claims, misinformation and unkept promises.
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