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Author Topic: A Comparison of the 24XL, 28HR and 35XL  (Read 16469 times)
rainer_v
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« Reply #20 on: February 19, 2007, 07:02:06 PM »
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At A1, I am sorry but I just can't believe that 5D or any other 35mm will hold
their own compared to bigger chip+more resolution/detail of e75,H3D,a75,P45. Perhaps you think A4? but even A4 could be argued.
Regards
Danijela
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101786\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

i said A1... and if you put your nose closed to them it becomes obvious, but hardly from viewing distances more than a half meter. although..... i know also why i am working with my mf gear usually,- but this has many reasons and resolution is not in the first line herein.

many things depend on how the images are treated in postpro, a.e. i add grain on lower resolution images as  from the 5d. its incredible how well can look images out of these camera if treated well.
you know my style of shooting, believe me that my requirements for prints are anything else than substandard ....
« Last Edit: February 19, 2007, 07:05:54 PM by rehnniar » Logged

rainer viertlböck
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www.tangential.de
Shara Haddad
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« Reply #21 on: February 19, 2007, 07:12:19 PM »
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Hi Ranier,

My name is Shara Haddad.

I am trying to decide between a Sinar or Leaf digital back for my Hasselblad V system. I will also consider buying a new view cam such as new Horseman digital version. Any suggestions or comments to help me.

Who has the best image quality?

I see your name in a lot of threads and think you are pretty experienced in this matter.

Thanks
Shara Haddad
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rainer_v
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« Reply #22 on: February 19, 2007, 07:40:05 PM »
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hi shara,
i dont want to burn my fingers anymore in saying that one system is "the best", cause its
1. somehow subjective and
2. depends too much of the indivdual shooting style.
so everyone knows his system best and also there is a human tendency to justify such huge investments.
i would say which is best depends at first on the subjects you want too shoot. so for fashion or for longtime exposures i would prefer another back than for architecture
. as you easily can see, in this treat also, we fight us with arguments just to come to the result that many of these lenses and backs we are talking about can make stunning results......
its for sure not easy to decide where to jump in. even i dont advise to rent gear, cause the learning curve is too big with each tool, you just will scratch the surface and so it remains a decision which is not founded on a serious "quality" comparation.
even less i would suggest to let you demonstrate the gear by some dists of the company, probably noone will tell you the true shortcomings of their products, these guys want to sell you something not to chase you away...

i can tell you for me... and for my way to work, my emotion sinar backs are doing a very good job, but till i could say that it was not an easy way also.
my gottschalt camera is very special but surely for architecture its very usefull, but an alpa or cambo will do it also, maybe with some features less or more..... but its possible to make great images with them as well ( as with my ricoh gr8 too   ).

what amazes me is that so many here have so high illusions either in the H3 or in the AVI/HY6.
i bought some weeks ago a contax 645 camera together with 5 excellent zeiss lenses, waistlevel and prism finder, battery grip, film and pola backs ( which i probably never will use ) for around $5500 all together. thats a lot of money saved in comparation to the new mf system cameras and i cant see what they should do better ( maybe aside from the "sw corrected" 28mm hassy lense ).



in general i think it might be impossible to go in a shop, to pay $ 50.000,-- and to come out with a system which works flawless and easy. digital mf does not work in this way. these backs are not "consumer" products, they act a little bit as racing cars, which means it can be pretty uncomfortable to use them for driving to the shopping center,- and if you dont know how to use these cars they even will not move you 1 meter forward,- but ofcourse they can be fast in the right hands.
you will know more ( or be much more confused ) after reading some of the longer treads here in these forum.....
« Last Edit: February 19, 2007, 07:44:01 PM by rehnniar » Logged

rainer viertlböck
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munich / germany

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thsinar
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« Reply #23 on: February 19, 2007, 08:38:05 PM »
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Ranier,

When I downloaded your image to add index grid lines I accidentally pushed the levels a bit. I think there may be centerfold in yoru image.

Can you check it out and see what you find. I also see some magenta and cyans splotches of color cast. I wonder if the Brumbaer program is "painting" the centerfold like a smudge tool so that it is not visible when the image is at normal levels?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101764\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Dear Michael,

This has nothing to do with "centerfold" effect: please go back to earlier treads and samples of files, as well as the explanations posted.

Best regards,
Thierry
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Thierry Hagenauer
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Danijela D. Karic
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« Reply #24 on: February 19, 2007, 08:51:36 PM »
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i said A1... and if you put your nose closed to them it becomes obvious, but hardly from viewing distances more than a half meter. although..... i know also why i am working with my mf gear usually,- but this has many reasons and resolution is not in the first line herein. many things depend on how the images are treated in postpro, a.e. i add grain on lower resolution images as from the 5d. its incredible how well can look images out of these camera if treated well.
you know my style of shooting, believe me that my requirements for prints are anything else than substandard ....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101789\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
As far as I am concerned you are right, it depends on the post-production. With regards to the images without heavy post-production and compositing applied, I bet you, I can tell a difference from a half a meter on A1. I was challenged on weighing the approximate diamond carat across the table many times and I learned to be right or very close every time. A4 from half a meter is a little small and difficult I admit. So, I agree that you would have to put your nose to smell the difference. On A1, not a problem for me. However, it has to be done on the spot no tricks.  

Regards
Danijela
« Last Edit: February 19, 2007, 08:57:01 PM by Danijela D. Karic » Logged
Shara Haddad
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« Reply #25 on: February 19, 2007, 09:07:05 PM »
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Dear Michael,

This has nothing to do with "centerfold" effect: please go back to earlier treads and samples of files, as well as the explanations posted.

Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101799\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thierry,

I am in the market for a new digital back. My father is providing the funds for my expansion into the digital market. I have a major gig (atleast major for me) that requires this new equipment.

If this problem is not infact a remnant of the a painted out centerfold, then can you eplain what it is?

I am considering Leaf, Sinar and possibly Phase. I need to exhaust all research by Friday and make a decision.

Thanks
Shara Haddad
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Prakash Patel
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« Reply #26 on: February 19, 2007, 09:20:18 PM »
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I do not defend nor criticize, I look and call it as I see it. If I take your image and move it into Photoshop and apply the index lines, the left side of your image shows that the vertical wall is bowed.

All three of the images I posted are taken in the same spot with or without rise as noted. These test images show that the 28HR (In this test shoot) exhibited the most amount of distorsion.

These images were not adjusted in Photoshop at all except to add the index lines.

It is what it is. I hope some find them useful as a reference, nothing more, nothing less.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101721\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

MKravit

Is it  as simple as you have stated?

When I saw the files you posted, my jaw dropped...I could not believe the distortion of the 28HR, particularly since it costs over 5k. Then, by inference, I wondered how a photographer like Rainer would work with such an inferior lens and simultaneously speak so highly of the 28HR.........I thought he is a darn good shooter if he can work with that lens to produce images that are on his"uniquely" designed web site.  

I did a little research (see attachment) and found the image circle to be 70mm with recommendations of 6mm rise on a horizontal image and 5mm rise on a vertical image.....no wonder the distortion was exagerated: 10mm is 200% of the manufacturer's specification.
On the other hand, the Schneider 35xl has a 90mm image circle with 19mm rise on a horizontal image  and 17mm rise on a vertical image.

So the Schneider is tested @100% of recommended movement and the Rodenstock @ 200%......
of course it is going to exhibit failure.

I am glad you posted these images as it adds to the general body of knowledge......but for architectural shooters when you need a 24mm lens  a 28 won't do  and vice versa.

By the way your earlier post was not clear as to if you shot this test ( i know you said you were the source of the post).  Do you have this shot taken with the Rodenstock 28mm with less movement applied (5 or 8mm by chance) ?

thank you for posting these images

regards
« Last Edit: February 19, 2007, 09:47:09 PM by Prakash Patel » Logged

mtomalty
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« Reply #27 on: February 19, 2007, 09:32:46 PM »
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Michael,

Knowing that you have the 28mm for your H3D did you by any chance expose the
same test with this lens and compare the results with the optical corrections applied
from within Flexcolor ?

If so,were the results comparable?

Mark
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mkravit
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« Reply #28 on: February 19, 2007, 09:47:43 PM »
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Michael,

Knowing that you have the 28mm for your H3D did you by any chance expose the
same test with this lens and compare the results with the optical corrections applied
from within Flexcolor ?

If so,were the results comparable?

Mark
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101805\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Mark,

Unfortunately no, I did not have the HCD 28 at the time we shot the above images.

For Prakash,
The 28HR is a friends lens, and yes we were together.

The purpose of the test was to compare the 24Digitar and the 28HR and 35Digitar. We were looking for something in the middle between the 24 and 35. And, since rise is a major consideration with 10mm being very common in our work we tested it in this manner. As you can see the top edges of the image exhibit vignetting, and severe distortion. As a result we found that the 28HR would not satisfactorily meet our needs.

We tried to keep apprximately the same building height in the frame. Hence the 24 has no rise, the 28HR has 10mm rise and the 35 has 17mm rise. Again, we were testing for our own situation and needs and the result was although the 28HR is a wonderful lens, the distortion at even 10mm rise is unacceptable.

So please understand that this is solely an exercise to determine the applicability of this lens for my own needs based on the type of work I do.

I know that we shot the 28HR with less rise but I don't know if we kept those files.

So yes you are correct in your observations about percentage of rise and comparing the lenses. However, shooting this building served to ascertain how we would work in real world conditions.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2007, 09:56:51 PM by mkravit » Logged
Prakash Patel
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« Reply #29 on: February 19, 2007, 10:05:20 PM »
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Mark,

Unfortunately no, I did not have the HCD 28 at the time we shot the above images.

For Prakash,
The 28HR is a friends lens, and yes we were together.

The purpose of the test was to compare the 24Digitar and the 28HR and 35Digitar. We were looking for something in the middle between the 24 and 35. And, since rise is a major consideration with 10mm being very common in our work we tested it in this manner. As you can see the top edges of the image exhibit vignetting, and severe distortion. As a result we found that the 28HR would not satisfactorily meet our needs.

We tried to keep apprximately the same building height in the frame. Hence the 24 has no rise, the 28HR has 10mm rise and the 35 has 17mm rise. Again, we were testing for our own situation and needs and the result was although the 28HR is a wonderful lens, the distortion at even 10mm rise is unacceptable.

So please understand that this is solely an exercise to determine the applicability of this lens for my own needs based on the type of work I do.

I know that we shot the 28HR with less rise but I don't know if we kept those files.

So yes you are correct in your observations about percentage of rise and comparing the lenses. However, shooting this building served to ascertain how we would work in real world conditions.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101807\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Michael

I have those 3 schneider digitars (24,35,47) but am also interested in the 28mm.

Did you do any tests with the lens wide open?

Is there a difference in image quality @ 100% say at the pergola in your test images of the 28 vs the 35?

At what point does the sharpness degrade on the 28mm image?

regards
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Danijela D. Karic
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« Reply #30 on: February 19, 2007, 10:10:44 PM »
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Att: Michael K

Again, I have to admit H3D 39 sound attractive to me, in addition to other H3D features I can compare the 28HR and HC28mm too while I wait for other platforms to reach the market if and when? eventually, and I can't do that with e75/a75/P45.

Is HC28mm AF or not?

Where did you buy your system from? I was going to contact Steve Hendrix but still
I am waiting for Before & After images of HC28.

It would help if you let me know deal you got on H3D, you can send it via PM if not comfortable here.

Regards
Danijela
« Last Edit: February 20, 2007, 12:10:53 AM by Danijela D. Karic » Logged
pixjohn
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« Reply #31 on: February 19, 2007, 11:06:32 PM »
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Not to add another lens into the works, but why not! Its strange the 60mm schneider and 60 HR  from Rodenstock seem to have smaller  image circles compared to other lenses. The Schneider charts shows 0mm  rise and fall and the Rodenstock only shows around 6mm rise. The 35xl and 47xl both have plenty of rise and fall?


Quote
( this is even more evident with the larger HR lenses, a.e. the 60HR you can shift 20 - 25mm.)
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

rainer, I am not sure how you can get  so much shift from a lens that has the same image circle as the 28HR?

[a href=\"http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=1893]60HR image Circle[/url]

In a perfect world I would like to see Schneider come out with a 30mm lens with at least 10mm shift
« Last Edit: February 19, 2007, 11:08:22 PM by pixjohn » Logged
thsinar
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« Reply #32 on: February 20, 2007, 01:01:03 AM »
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Dear Shara,

thanks for your question.

Please read my PM to you, since I wish to continue this discussion out of the heat of controversy.

Thanks and best regards,
Thierry

Quote
Thierry,

I am in the market for a new digital back. My father is providing the funds for my expansion into the digital market. I have a major gig (atleast major for me) that requires this new equipment.

If this problem is not infact a remnant of the a painted out centerfold, then can you eplain what it is?

I am considering Leaf, Sinar and possibly Phase. I need to exhaust all research by Friday and make a decision.

Thanks
Shara Haddad
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101803\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Thierry Hagenauer
thasia_cn@yahoo.com
rainer_v
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« Reply #33 on: February 20, 2007, 01:45:04 AM »
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i just said it several times. no problem to shift the 60HR 20 - 25mm without ANY vignetting.
the rodenstock image circles are very conservative claimed. the 28+35HR shift both the same. 10-12mm without visible vignetting.

although i have not made any line tests with the lenses, i react hyper sensitive to distortion. if there is a lense in my bag which shows much...... i sell it the next day. i think i have not more to say about than i already did, together with the images i posted.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2007, 02:18:28 AM by rehnniar » Logged

rainer viertlböck
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www.tangential.de
thsinar
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« Reply #34 on: February 20, 2007, 03:35:25 AM »
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Dear Michael,

could you please confirm that the 28mm lens you used for your test is a Sinaron Digital 4.5/28mm HR? And on which mount/platform?

If this is the case, then I would strongly suggest to your friend to exchange it: we do have very strict quality controls and I have myself with my work with this lens never experienced such as you.

pls. feedback.

Thanks and best regards,
Thierry

Quote
I do not defend nor criticize, I look and call it as I see it. If I take your image and move it into Photoshop and apply the index lines, the left side of your image shows that the vertical wall is bowed.

All three of the images I posted are taken in the same spot with or without rise as noted. These test images show that the 28HR (In this test shoot) exhibited the most amount of distorsion.

These images were not adjusted in Photoshop at all except to add the index lines.

It is what it is. I hope some find them useful as a reference, nothing more, nothing less.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101721\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
« Last Edit: February 20, 2007, 03:40:58 AM by thsinar » Logged

Thierry Hagenauer
thasia_cn@yahoo.com
mkravit
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« Reply #35 on: February 20, 2007, 07:23:08 AM »
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Michael

I have those 3 schneider digitars (24,35,47) but am also interested in the 28mm.

Did you do any tests with the lens wide open?

Is there a difference in image quality @ 100% say at the pergola in your test images of the 28 vs the 35?

At what point does the sharpness degrade on the 28mm image?

regards
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101814\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Seriously now, I am not a lens testing agency.

My intention was to just see how the lens performed for distortion. Seeing that it didn't perform as we had hoped, we simply weren't that interested in taking the tests too much further.

I did find additional images where the 28HR had differing amounts of rise. I will post those as soon as I have some time.
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mkravit
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« Reply #36 on: February 20, 2007, 07:27:37 AM »
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Att: Michael K

Again, I have to admit H3D 39 sound attractive to me, in addition to other H3D features I can compare the 28HR and HC28mm too while I wait for other platforms to reach the market if and when? eventually, and I can't do that with e75/a75/P45.

Is HC28mm AF or not?

Where did you buy your system from? I was going to contact Steve Hendrix but still
I am waiting for Before & After images of HC28.

It would help if you let me know deal you got on H3D, you can send it via PM if not comfortable here.

Regards
Danijela
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101815\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

D.


My system came from Steve Hendrix.
The 28HCD is in fact an auto focus lens.

I suggest that you contact Steve Hendrix. Steve is one of the most concerned, diligent and honest sales guys I know or have met. He can answer yur questions, get you test images and answer your questions and concerns. And he stands behind his products.

I will PM you with the financial information.
you seem like a very nice person, andt like most women I know, a chatty ;-)
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mkravit
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« Reply #37 on: February 20, 2007, 07:35:14 AM »
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Dear Michael,

could you please confirm that the 28mm lens you used for your test is a Sinaron Digital 4.5/28mm HR? And on which mount/platform?

Thanks and best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101863\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Confirmed, "V" mount.
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thsinar
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« Reply #38 on: February 20, 2007, 07:41:30 AM »
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what do you mean with "V" mount?

Is there Sinar Sinaron Digital 28mm/HR engraved on this lens?

Thanks to be as precise as possible: I wish to sort this out and to get confirmation that we are speaking about the same lens which is in question, namely the Sinar Sinaron Digital HR 4.5/28mm.

Thanks for any information to enable me to check and sort out the problem.

Thierry

Quote
Confirmed, "V" mount.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101883\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
« Last Edit: February 20, 2007, 07:42:16 AM by thsinar » Logged

Thierry Hagenauer
thasia_cn@yahoo.com
mkravit
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« Reply #39 on: February 20, 2007, 09:31:57 AM »
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[attachment=1895:attachment]
Quote
Is there Sinar Sinaron Digital 28mm/HR engraved on this lens?

Thanks to be as precise as possible: I wish to sort this out and to get confirmation that we are speaking about the same lens which is in question, namely the Sinar Sinaron Digital HR 4.5/28mm.

Thanks for any information to enable me to check and sort out the problem.

Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101884\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The lens is from Calument and is the Rodenstock Apo Sironar Digital HR28.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2007, 09:34:32 AM by mkravit » Logged
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