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Author Topic: A Comparison of the 24XL, 28HR and 35XL  (Read 15143 times)
mkravit
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« Reply #40 on: February 20, 2007, 09:36:02 AM »
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Here are a few more images taken with the HR28 with various amounts of rise.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2007, 09:36:43 AM by mkravit » Logged
rainer_v
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« Reply #41 on: February 20, 2007, 09:43:39 AM »
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Here are a few more images taken with the HR28 with various amounts of rise.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101901\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

cant see any problems with them, except that you seem to have a tendency not to level the camera straight, which gives a strange perspective, esp. if you overcorrect the perspectives, what you do in this way of levelling.
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rainer viertlböck
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thsinar
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« Reply #42 on: February 20, 2007, 09:45:57 AM »
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Thanks for your information!

In this case you should give this lens back: it is certainly not up to the normal results you can get with it.

All the best,
Thierry

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[attachment=1895:attachment]

The lens is from Calument and is the Rodenstock Apo Sironar Digital HR28.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101900\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Thierry Hagenauer
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Shara Haddad
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« Reply #43 on: February 20, 2007, 09:53:16 AM »
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Thanks for your information!

In this case you should give this lens back: it is certainly not up to the normal results you can get with it.

All the best,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101904\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thierry,

The Sinar dealer I was speaking with told me that a VERY large number of the Sinar HR28 lenses were produced with severe defects and were destroyed by Sinar. This concerns me, can you elaborate and either confirm or dispell this issue.

Thanks
Shara Haddad

PS. Thanks for the Private Email and BTW, I spoke with Mkravit by telephone, he was very helpful and really did not exhibit any political agenda as you suggested. I think that the images posted are very helpful and will go a long way in helping me make a decision.

What I think is political is the way people have attacked the him for posting these images. IMO it is quite obvious that there is an overwhelming bias toward Sinar. I am trying to determine which camera back to buy and most people have been helpful.

I want the truth about these backs and lenses. I don;t want sugar coated Madison Avenue hype. I can handle the truth and need it to make my decision. I know Danijela feels the same.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2007, 10:04:41 AM by Shara Haddad » Logged
thsinar
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« Reply #44 on: February 20, 2007, 10:12:23 AM »
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Dear Shara,

I would be glad to know the name of this "Sinar Dealer" who told you such things.
It is of course absolutely wrong.

At first, we do not and never get such lenses in huge quantities: you can imagine that at this price there are not hundreds sold. No, we do get such lenses in bunches of 10 at the very maximum. Those lenses are then tested with OUR own specifications and released ONLY if they meet this specifications. If not, they are sent back.

If we would have VERY large numbers of these or any other lenses with defects, we would certainly not destroy them, but send them back to the manufacturer.

So I would really be glad to get the name of this dealer (as PM) to be able to give him right information as how it excatly works when it comes to lens quality and quality controls.

Thanks Shara and best regards,
Thierry

Quote
Thierry,

The Sinar dealer I was speaking with told me that a VERY large number of the Sinar HR28 lenses were produced with severe defects and were destroyed by Sinar. This concerns me, can you elaborate and either confirm or dispell this issue.

Thanks
Shara Haddad

PS. Thanks for the Private Email and BTW, I spoke with Mkravit by telephone, he was very helpful and really did not exhibit any political agenda as you suggested. I think that the images posted are very helpful and will go a long way in helping me make a decision.

What I think is political is the way people have attacked the him for posting these images. IMO it is quite obvious that there is an overwhelming bias toward Sinar. I am trying to determine which camera back to buy and most people have been helpful.

I want the truth about these backs and lenses. I don;t want sugar coated Madison Avenue hype. I can handle the truth and need it to make my decision. I know Danijela feels the same.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101905\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
« Last Edit: February 20, 2007, 10:13:15 AM by thsinar » Logged

Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #45 on: February 20, 2007, 10:15:07 AM »
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i just uploaded a serial of shots with different shift settings up to the maximum shift, made with the 28/35/60HR lenses with some ugly hotel closed to my spanish home, i just took them 1 hour before.
they are not "distortion-free" and maybe the schneider pendants perform a tick better here ,- it would be interesting to see that 1:1 ( if they do they do it for the price of other shortcomings ).
i am working now nearly one year with these lenses and i didnt had any image were i had serious dist. problems..... ( but i have to admit that i am skilled in postpro ) .

i stopped the time of changing the adapter of the emotion : 1min 50sec.
shift without vignetation, taken at f11 ( horizontal ):

with 28+35HR lense: 13mm
with 60HR : 22mm

you can get the files here:

www.tangential.de/download/lenstest.zip
« Last Edit: February 20, 2007, 10:16:33 AM by rehnniar » Logged

rainer viertlböck
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munich / germany

www.tangential.de
mkravit
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« Reply #46 on: February 20, 2007, 10:18:08 AM »
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Thierry,

PS. Thanks for the Private Email and BTW, I spoke with Mkravit by telephone, he was very helpful and really did not exhibit any political agenda as you suggested. I think that the images posted are very helpful and will go a long way in helping me make a decision.

What I think is political is the way people have attacked the him for posting these images. IMO it is quite obvious that there is an overwhelming bias toward Sinar. I am trying to determine which camera back to buy and most people have been helpful.

I want the truth about these backs and lenses. I don;t want sugar coated Madison Avenue hype. I can handle the truth and need it to make my decision. I know Danijela feels the same.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101905\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

What!

Thierry, what is up with that?

You dodn't know me, I have never spoken with you and where do you come off accusing me of having a political agenda. Some people have asked if anyone had images from the 28HR. I did, so I posted them.

I take this accusation very seriously. Shara was upset about what you said and forwarded me the email. I am shocked that you would so and say such things. I may consider fowarding your statements to Sinar, I want to think about it.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2007, 10:21:39 AM by mkravit » Logged
mkravit
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« Reply #47 on: February 20, 2007, 10:20:23 AM »
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cant see any problems with them, except that you seem to have a tendency not to level the camera straight, which gives a strange perspective, esp. if you overcorrect the perspectives, what you do in this way of levelling.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101903\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Ranier,

I'm using the levels in the camera.
If I was over levelleing, the 35xl would be out as well...

The 28 looks fine with everything traveling parallel until about two thirds of the way up when if starts to splay out. That's why I put the lines there.
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rainer_v
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« Reply #48 on: February 20, 2007, 10:33:17 AM »
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Ranier,

I'm using the levels in the camera.
If I was over levelleing, the 35xl would be out as well...

The 28 looks fine with everything traveling parallel until about two thirds of the way up when if starts to splay out. That's why I put the lines there.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101915\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

no, just the 28hr are overlevelled. but anyway.... now offense about that- fast tests are done fast, i know that. did you donwload my files?
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rainer viertlböck
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pixjohn
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« Reply #49 on: February 20, 2007, 12:28:05 PM »
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Rehnniar, I just wanted to thank you for posting the samples of the 60HR. I can definitely see at +15mm shift you start to have issues. I am probably going to go ahead and get the 60hr since I need a lens in that range or maybe I should just get my 58xl fitted for the Cambo Wide DS? lots to think about.


Quote
i just uploaded a serial of shots with different shift settings up to the maximum shift, made with the 28/35/60HR lenses with some ugly hotel closed to my spanish home, i just took them 1 hour before.
they are not "distortion-free" and maybe the schneider pendants perform a tick better here ,- it would be interesting to see that 1:1 ( if they do they do it for the price of other shortcomings ).
i am working now nearly one year with these lenses and i didnt had any image were i had serious dist. problems..... ( but i have to admit that i am skilled in postpro ) .

i stopped the time of changing the adapter of the emotion : 1min 50sec.
shift without vignetation, taken at f11 ( horizontal ):

with 28+35HR lense: 13mm
with 60HR : 22mm

you can get the files here:

www.tangential.de/download/lenstest.zip
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101910\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
« Last Edit: February 20, 2007, 12:28:45 PM by pixjohn » Logged
rainer_v
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« Reply #50 on: February 20, 2007, 12:38:29 PM »
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Rehnniar, I just wanted to thank you for posting the samples of the 60HR. I can definitely see at +15mm shift you start to have issues. I am probably going to go ahead and get the 60hr since I need a lens in that range or maybe I should just get my 58xl fitted for the Cambo Wide DS? lots to think about.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101943\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

for me the biggest advantage of that lenses certainly is that they can be used at open f stops and remain sharp.
together with the possibility to use them without center filter it seems to be a plus of 2 ( xl lenses without cf ) to 4 stops, xl  with cf filter ), although should not be a problem to use the 58xl without cf also,- isnt it? in interior or night shots not so little difference.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2007, 02:14:59 PM by rehnniar » Logged

rainer viertlböck
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rainer_v
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« Reply #51 on: February 20, 2007, 12:55:34 PM »
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What I think is political is the way people have attacked the him for posting these images. IMO it is quite obvious that there is an overwhelming bias toward Sinar. I am trying to determine which camera back to buy and most people have been helpful.
things are changing...
when i started to work with sinar and gottschalt i remember that i was one of the few people here posting and using that systems, at least for architecture. than discoverd foto-z in one post of mine the appearent centerfold issue,  i was not aware of that at this moment. stephan and me already have been working about tweaking the colors of the e75, ( which i did not liked too much after receiving it in april ) and so stephan went on improving his brumbaer tool and wrote the code for removing this cf thing. following here have started big and large posts about centerfold issues, workarounds and solutions by the two companies who use the same dalsa sensor, leaf and sinar.
one year ago you found nearly only phase and leaf guys here,- now sinar users seem to be very present. lets see how it will go on.... these things are changing fast. i am very active at the moment here, but this can change also because just sharing can become a little bit boring and too time consumptive ( as it was the last days- anyway i am in a kind of holidays ...), than will come the next guy who has fun in beeing present here... and so on.although many many people are reading these forums, not so many are writting much and even less have much personal experience,- so just a few people can influence the appearence of a "little" forum a lot. for good or for bad is another question..... but the things are changing and so they will do again.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2007, 01:00:21 PM by rehnniar » Logged

rainer viertlböck
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rethmeier
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« Reply #52 on: February 20, 2007, 02:57:34 PM »
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Interesting times!
I have a question regarding the 28HR used with the Cambo WDS.
Because the lens is top heavy,could the way Cambo's  mounts their lens in the camera body effect the?
Is it holding the lens barrel perpendicular to the sensor plane and thus the plane of focus parrallel to the sensor plane?

Also I have a question regarding using the centre filters.

Isn't there a way in post to remove the vignetting so you don't have to use the centre filter?

Regards,
Willem.
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Willem Rethmeier
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« Reply #53 on: February 20, 2007, 03:09:04 PM »
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Interesting times!
I have a question regarding the 28HR used with the Cambo WDS.
Because the lens is top heavy,could the way Cambo's  mounts their lens in the camera body effect the?
Is it holding the lens barrel perpendicular to the sensor plane and thus the plane of focus parrallel to the sensor plane?

Also I have a question regarding using the centre filters.

Isn't there a way in post to remove the vignetting so you don't have to use the centre filter?

Regards,
Willem.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101980\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

i dont use a center filter on any of the HR lenses, i believe that sinar/ rodenstock even dont provide one. i use for all shift-camera shots brumbaers dngprogramm, applying white files to the shots.
in these workflow the vignetting and color casts are eliminated by inverting grey files.
i shoot at the set before every motif a white reference with an grey-transparent 10x10cm  plexi.  the dngconverter creates white references out of these files and apply them in a batch to all the files meanwhile it writes the dngs.
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rainer viertlböck
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rethmeier
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« Reply #54 on: February 20, 2007, 03:16:37 PM »
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Rainer,
I was talking about the Schneiders that need a centre filter.
I'm fully aware that the HR don't need centre filters.

All I wanted to know,if there was a way NOT to use a centre filter with the 24XL + 35XL
and get rid of the vignetting in post?

BTW,I ran all you test through CS2 Lens correction and it's very easy to correct the distortion.

How's the holidays?
Looks pretty cold for Spain,I see people with coats!

Regards,
Willem.
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Willem Rethmeier
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Danijela D. Karic
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« Reply #55 on: February 20, 2007, 04:57:05 PM »
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All I wanted to know,if there was a way NOT to use a centre filter with the 24XL + 35XL
and get rid of the vignetting in post?

Regards,
Willem.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101985\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
During the presentation of CaptureOne, I do believe I’ve seen the vignetting removal tip in CaptureOne but I could be wrong. I will check that again.

Regards
Danijela
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Danijela D. Karic
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« Reply #56 on: February 20, 2007, 05:02:54 PM »
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Interesting times!
I have a question regarding the 28HR used with the Cambo WDS.
Because the lens is top heavy,could the way Cambo's  mounts their lens in the camera body effect the?

Regards,
Willem.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101980\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Interesting question, but I don't understand what exactly do you mean?

ALPA12 SWA is lighter then Cambo WDS, should I be concerned?

Regards
Danijela
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Danijela D. Karic
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« Reply #57 on: February 20, 2007, 05:09:27 PM »
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Att: [span style=\'font-size:11pt;line-height:100%\']Rainer[/span]

I know you don't use any center filters on your lenses. How do you protect them from scratches? are you using UV filters, etc.?

Regards
Danijela
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Prakash Patel
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« Reply #58 on: February 20, 2007, 05:41:30 PM »
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Interesting times!
I have a question regarding the 28HR used with the Cambo WDS.
Because the lens is top heavy,could the way Cambo's  mounts their lens in the camera body effect the?
Is it holding the lens barrel perpendicular to the sensor plane and thus the plane of focus parrallel to the sensor plane?

Also I have a question regarding using the centre filters.

Isn't there a way in post to remove the vignetting so you don't have to use the centre filter?

Regards,
Willem.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101980\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Willem

The Cambo Wide DS is an analog camera design that works with the Schneider 38xl to 150mm lens.
In the middle of this line up is a Schneider 72mm xl & the Schneider 90mm (655grams with no lens mount) which I use for film and digital capture.
I don't think the lens mount can effect the geometry between the lens and the ccd as this camera
robust and built solid. Notice there are lens guards on the lens mount to assure that the perpendicular geometry is not compromised while handling or storing the lens.
I realize that the 28mm HR weighs over 900 grams so it is possible that the weight could affect the helical focusing mount.........

The Cambo Wide Digital DS is the same camera body with a recessed film/ccd plane...this enables focusing the Schneider 24xl digitar. All the lens panels and film panels are interchangable allowing you to make digital and/or analog captures.


regards
« Last Edit: February 20, 2007, 05:47:15 PM by Prakash Patel » Logged

rainer_v
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« Reply #59 on: February 20, 2007, 05:51:20 PM »
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Att: [span style=\'font-size:11pt;line-height:100%\']Rainer[/span]

I know you don't use any center filters on your lenses. How do you protect them from scratches? are you using UV filters, etc.?

Regards
Danijela
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=102012\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

hmm... i never used any uv filter even on my old 35mm leica m4p or on any other camera...
but i never scratched any front lense, although i use my cameras rough ....  sometimes.
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rainer viertlböck
architecture photographer
munich / germany

www.tangential.de
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