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Author Topic: Sinar P2 and digital backs  (Read 24196 times)
kchroma
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« on: February 28, 2007, 12:52:18 PM »
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Hello:

At one time, I thought you could use digital backs with my Sinar P2.  Then I heard that the rack and pinion mechanism was not fine enough to use them with.  Could the gentleman, from Sinar, who posts to this board clarify that for me please?  If someone else has any recent experience with the newest backs and Sinar, could you add your experience as well?

Also, can I use the 24 and 28 digital lenses with the Sinar p2 camera as well?

Thanks,
Paul
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Morgan_Moore
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« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2007, 03:25:32 PM »
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Hello:

At one time, I thought you could use digital backs with my Sinar P2.  Then I heard that the rack and pinion mechanism was not fine enough to use them with.  Could the gentleman, from Sinar, who posts to this board clarify that for me please?  If someone else has any recent experience with the newest backs and Sinar, could you add your experience as well?

Also, can I use the 24 and 28 digital lenses with the Sinar p2 camera as well?

Thanks,
Paul
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=103802\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I own a P2 dont work for Sinar

My experience is that it works fine with a 100m lense for table top work

You basically make a rough composition on the glass then do your fine focus by shooting images and wiggle the focus until sharp

In terms of wides I have a rodenstock 47 which (with a sliding back) is absolutely the widest possible** for infinity focus - the (WA) bellows are scrunched right up  - you can get a bit of rise/fall but no swing

I hate using the sinar with the 47 and have in fact given up with it but for table top with my 110 it is no problem

If you own a P2 I wouldnt get rid of it - if you dont own a P2 I wouldnt buy one - if you see what I mean

One thing to play with would be to keep the bellows with a long lens and mount a wide lens on the front of the back standard with a FOTOTMAN focus ring

I did similar with a 24NIkkor

SMM

** I dont know about the new Roden 28
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mattlap2
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« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2007, 04:19:08 PM »
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Hello:

At one time, I thought you could use digital backs with my Sinar P2.  Then I heard that the rack and pinion mechanism was not fine enough to use them with.  Could the gentleman, from Sinar, who posts to this board clarify that for me please?  If someone else has any recent experience with the newest backs and Sinar, could you add your experience as well?

Also, can I use the 24 and 28 digital lenses with the Sinar p2 camera as well?

Thanks,
Paul
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=103802\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Paul,  

You actually have a few options depending upon which digital back you would like to use on your P2.   First off ..  Sinar makes a kit that will convert your P2 to a P3.   Roughly it is a little less than half of the price of buying a P3.  

Your 2nd option is a Sliding Back.   Sinar makes one, Phase One makes one, and so does Kapture Group.    

The 3rd Option is .. Sinar makes an adapter for putting a Sinar Digital back directly onto your P2 and you would use Live Video for focusing.    Kapture Group makes a similar adapter for using other digital backs on the P2 that offer live video.

That being said ...   You "might" be able to get a 28mm focused with extra wide bellows and a recessed board with live video.    I think the sliding back will take you just far enough away that you will not be able to.   I think the 24 is not a likely option under either scenario.  

Hope that helps ...  If you are in the US and you PM me your info I will put you in touch with your local Sinar Bron Rep.

Thanks,

Matt LaPointe
National Sales Support Specialist
Sinar Bron Imaging
(219) 670-9905
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thsinar
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« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2007, 07:00:35 PM »
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Dear Paul,

It is absolutely possible to use a p2 with a digital back, in 3 different ways:

1. with the lenses on DB mount and Sinarcam 2: the Cam2 is not longer in production, however and sometimes we do have refurbished ones.
2. with the lenses in DB mount with the "Behind-the-Lens" Copal shutter: in this case the multishot function (if needed) has to be done with darkened studio and shutter on B, trigered from the computer. Single shot can be done "normaly".
3. with the lenses in Copal mount: same as above, multishot needs darkened studio. Single shot can be done "normaly".

Those 3 configurations can be used 2 different ways:

- with a "Carrier Frame" positioning the back exactly in the focus/image plane to be able to make use of the p2's easy 2-points sharpness plane adjustment (tilt/swing) and with  even a "Revolving  Adapter" if wished (no need to take away the back from Vertical to Horizontal shooting).
- with a Sliding Adapter 100 and "Tapered Bellow".

In fact, photographers starting with digital backs on a view camera have all used their existing Sinar p2, usually with the Cam 2, and there are STILL many using this configuration. If your p2 is in good condition and the movements/gears well adjusted, then it is absolutely easy and without any probem at all and the mechanisms are precise enough. There is even a special "Depth-of-Field" scale you can mount on your p2, taking in account the size of the sensor for your f-stop calculation.
I have myself worked for years with these configurations above, untl the p3 became available.

IN ADDITION: I would not and never get rid of my p2 camera: you have the possibility also to CONVERT it to a Sinar p3 (re-design of the p2 for digital = smaller, shorter shift ways, lighter, ...) at very low costs: this conversion kit consists of the 2 4x5" frames (lens and image) which are exchanged with 2 100mm p3 frames and with in addition a 100mm p3 bellows. Once the conversion is done you have the possibility to work with different lens mounts (CPL mount = Coal, CMV mount = Cental Magnetic Shutter) and CAB mount = full automatic control via Captureshop).

Digital lenses from 28mm up to 210 mm can be used.

I hope this answers your questions.

Best regards,
Thierry

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Hello:

At one time, I thought you could use digital backs with my Sinar P2. Then I heard that the rack and pinion mechanism was not fine enough to use them with. Could the gentleman, from Sinar, who posts to this board clarify that for me please? If someone else has any recent experience with the newest backs and Sinar, could you add your experience as well?

Also, can I use the 24 and 28 digital lenses with the Sinar p2 camera as well?

Thanks,
Paul
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=103802\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
« Last Edit: February 28, 2007, 07:43:53 PM by thsinar » Logged

Thierry Hagenauer
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Jeff Weir
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« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2007, 10:08:40 PM »
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I've been using a sinar p2/54H/Sinarcam2 for the last couple of years.  The rack and pinion on the p2 standards works beautifully.  I compose and focus everything on my monitor.  I use the 135, 80 and 45 lenses.  They all work equally well!


When I first started shooting digitally, I used a sliding back on my P2.  Focus on a tiny ground glass, then slide the digital back into place and shoot.  Yuck!  The sinar live video is soooooo much easier to work with.  

So to answer your question, yes, the standards on a P2 are precise enough to do critical focus adjustments.

Jeff
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fpoole
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« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2007, 10:09:24 PM »
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Paul,

I used the P2 in the studio for years.  I always felt that once you used it you could never be happy with  anything else.

If you feel the same way about the P2, you will find that working with the P3 and a digital back a dream, especially with a Sinarback and Live Video.  

You can absolutely use a DB on a P2, it just feels a bit clunky and oversized in my opinion.  I painfully parted with my P2 but now that I'm completely out of film I don't miss it and the transition to a P3 was very easy.  With a Sinarback54H and CMV lenses it is a dream to work with.  

But, everyone is right - you can make the exact same captures with a DB on a P2 - it's just a bit more of a workaround.  (Morgan - I admire your resourcefulness!)

I think it comes down to how much of your work is done in studio-if it is a smaller percentage of your work then I would keep the P2 and put your $$$ into the Digital Back.  You can always upgrade later on or not.  That's the beauty of the Sinar system.  

Believe me, I know how hard and complicated these decisions are.

Best,
Frank Poole
www.frankpoole.com
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kchroma
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« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2007, 08:03:37 AM »
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Hello:

First, thanks to everyone for their responses.  At one time, I had three P2's from 4x5 to 8 x 10.  Sold all but one early before the prices on Ebay started to drop.  My business plan is such that I can't afford to spend thousands of dollars without seriously looking for anyway to use what I have currently.  In my geographic location, renting becomes problematic and my policy has been to own rather than rent for these past 29 years.

I followed the recent discussions about lenses and architecture and decided I'd rather have more than less picture room. Therefore, I'm leaning to maximum flexibility of using a 24 mm lens.

I often get stuffed into smaller and smaller spaces to place my camera for just the view required by the architect, corporate or industial client.  Often, I've switched to my Kodak slr/n with 17-35 Nikon zoom to perform that camera miracle.  

Is it my understanding then, that the 24 mm lens will not, under any circumstances of refit, or buying outright a P3, work correctly?  That, current designs make it's focusing and operation impossible unless you stand on your head, wiggle your toes, roll you eyes counterclockwise and sing all the verses to Don McClain's old hit song " American Pie"?   For those unfamiliar with that song, it's very, very long!

If the P3's design is such that it can't operate a 24 mm lens, how can some of these other cameras do it?  Should  I consider fixed platforms like Hasselblad or this new hybrid Sinar and forget about adjusting perspective in-camera and do it in Photoshop?   I think I've read that the new Hasselblad has a 28 mm lens for such purposes.  Discussions on this forum seem to be using both ways for that.

Thanks,

Paul
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BobDavid
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« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2007, 08:51:33 AM »
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If I had the cash, I'd purchas an Arca-Swiss 6X9 M-Line Monolith. It's a terrific camera, very intuitive to operate. I think you can get a 28mm lens to work with it. It's really the only Arca-Swiss solution for super wide angle.
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thsinar
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« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2007, 09:54:49 AM »
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the 28mm is no problem, and can be used as well on any Sinar camera, p, p2 or 3.

The problem is the 24mm: I am pretty sure that this lens might have vignetting at infinity and with the 48x36mm (eMotions) and the 49x36.7mm sensors (SB 54 H and SB 54M).

I shall get advice from our product manager and confirm this as soon as possible.

Thierry

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If I had the cash, I'd purchas an Arca-Swiss 6X9 M-Line Monolith. It's a terrific camera, very intuitive to operate. I think you can get a 28mm lens to work with it. It's really the only Arca-Swiss solution for super wide angle.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=103989\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2007, 10:54:12 AM »
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the 28mm is no problem, and can be used as well on any Sinar camera, p, p2 or 3.

The problem is the 24mm: I am pretty sure that this lens might have vignetting at infinity and with the 48x36mm (eMotions) and the 49x36.7mm sensors (SB 54 H and SB 54M).

I shall get advice from our product manager and confirm this as soon as possible.

Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=103998\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I am confused about use of a 28 - my 47 is right at the minimum - WITH a Linhof sliding back

Will the 28 work without the SBA or what ??

Slightly OT but the sinarCAM does that crop the image to a strict 35mm size or can one use the full coverage of Nikkors ??

SMM
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Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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thsinar
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« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2007, 06:28:18 PM »
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Dear Sam, Dear Paul,

we are not speaking here about the 28mm Nikor, but the 28mm Rodenstock Digital HR: this lens covers the size of a 22MPx, 33 MPx and the 39 MPx sensor at infinity. It has an angle of 101 and an image circle of 70mm (Diagonal of the 22 and 33 MPx = 62mm).

The 24mm is from Schneider and can be mount on a Sinar lens mount for p2 with Schneider or Rollei shutter (possibly also in Copal mount on request): this 24mm lens has an angle of 100 with an image circle of 60mm and therefore it would very slightlybe vigneting at infinity.

I hope this answers the questions.

Best regards,
Thierry

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I am confused about use of a 28 - my 47 is right at the minimum - WITH a Linhof sliding back

Will the 28 work without the SBA or what ??

Slightly OT but the sinarCAM does that crop the image to a strict 35mm size or can one use the full coverage of Nikkors ??

SMM
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104008\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
« Last Edit: March 01, 2007, 06:29:00 PM by thsinar » Logged

Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2007, 11:41:54 PM »
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Dear Sam, Dear Paul,

we are not speaking here about the 28mm Nikor, [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104102\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I know !

When I boutght the p2 and 47 which was some time ago the 47 was the widest lense that was practical

Due to the stanards coming together for infinity focus (when using a SBA)

My question is - is that different with the new  Roden 28 ?

Using nikkors (smaller image circle - I know) is a seperate interest to me as I own from 14-600 already

I would still question that the P2 is appropriate for such wide lenses where focus is very fine - different from using a longer lense for table top where the movements are much larger and accuacy requirement smaller

SMM
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Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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thsinar
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« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2007, 11:50:16 PM »
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Dear Sam,

yes, this is possible with a digital 28 HR: the lens is mounted behind the shutter, not like with the p2 used with analog lenses. You need of course the wide angle bellows N2 to be able to shorten the standards enough. For the focusing, it is very precise to do it with the live video and the focus feature which tells you when maximum focus is reached: no problem at all, for me. On the groundglass it would of course be pretty difficult and inaccurate.

I think that many of our customers are still sing this p2 configuration, even with short lenses, and I have never had one complaining about it.

Best regards,
Thierry

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I know !

When I boutght the p2 and 47 which was some time ago the 47 was the widest lense that was practical

Due to the stanards coming together for infinity focus (when using a SBA)

My question is - is that different with the new  Roden 28 ?

Using nikkors (smaller image circle - I know) is a seperate interest to me as I own from 14-600 already

I would still question that the P2 is appropriate for such wide lenses where focus is very fine - different from using a longer lense for table top where the movements are much larger and accuacy requirement smaller

SMM
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104139\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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« Reply #13 on: March 02, 2007, 12:02:44 AM »
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Dear Sam,

yes, this is possible with a digital 28 HR: the lens is mounted behind the shutter, [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104141\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

What shutter is this ??

That makes sense

Of course I use wide angle bellows and a recessed board with my 47 (!)

But the sliding back does probably use and extra 15mm or so

Proably when the live is available for the emotion this will become of interest

SMM
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thsinar
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« Reply #14 on: March 02, 2007, 12:23:57 AM »
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2 Possiblities:

- by using the Sinarcam2, but discontinued (still some refurbished from time to time)
- by using the Copal "Behind-the-Lens" Shutter (shutter in front and turned)

Possible with both the sliding adapter or not.

About eMotion and Live Video: release and upgrade/updates conditions have been releasd yesterday to all Sinar's distributors.

Thierry

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What shutter is this ??

That makes sense

Of course I use wide angle bellows and a recessed board with my 47 (!)

But the sliding back does probably use and extra 15mm or so

Proably when the live is available for the emotion this will become of interest

SMM
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104142\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2007, 12:32:15 AM »
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- by using the Copal "Behind-the-Lens" Shutter (shutter in front and turned)
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Do you mean the product listed as ..

Sinar Auto Aperture Shutter

[a href=\"http://www.sinar.ch/site/index__gast-e-1835-50-1962.html]http://www.sinar.ch/site/index__gast-e-1835-50-1962.html[/url]

The hole doesnt look big enough not to obscure the front element or am I being thick ??

Also how is the aperture adusted ?

I take it nikkors could also be mounted behind this shutter (in theory) but probably not the 14 which is my main interest

SMM
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Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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thsinar
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« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2007, 12:39:38 AM »
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YES; this Auto Aperture Shutter.

the 28mm is mounted on recessed lens board (on request) to be able to use it with the Copal Auto Aperture shutter, or on a DB mount for the use with the Cam2.

it is on a DB mount, thus the aperture can be se on the shutter as usual.
Thierry

Quote
Do you mean the product listed as ..

Sinar Auto Aperture Shutter

http://www.sinar.ch/site/index__gast-e-1835-50-1962.html

The hole doesnt look big enough not to obscure the front element or am I being thick ??

Also how is the aperture adusted ?

I take it nikkors could also be mounted behind this shutter (in theory) but probably not the 14 which is my main interest

SMM
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104147\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
« Last Edit: March 02, 2007, 12:56:19 AM by thsinar » Logged

Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2007, 01:34:06 AM »
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YES; this Auto Aperture Shutter.

the 28mm is mounted on recessed lens board (on request) to be able to use it with the Copal Auto Aperture shutter, or on a DB mount for the use with the Cam2.

it is on a DB mount, thus the aperture can be se on the shutter as usual.
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104148\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I really am being thick

Forget the Cam2 it doesnt exist any more

Please explain

The 28 is mounted in a recessed lensboard so that it has a flat front

That flat front is attached to the shutter so the shutter is sitting in front of thefront element ?

Now the lens is inside the bellows

This makes sense

But

i dont dont understand the hole in the lenseboard doesnt seem big enough to allow light into the front element AND there is no aperture control Huh?
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Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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thsinar
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« Reply #18 on: March 02, 2007, 01:41:43 AM »
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no problem Sam: I'm very patient!

Yes, the Cam2 is discontinued officially, but we still have some from time to time.

yes, the lens is mounted on a recessed board (type DB) to be "flat" and is inside the bellows: the fact that this is a DB-Mount allows the connection with either the Cam 2 or the Copal shutter (Copal is mounted in front of the standard AND "turned") to set the aperture (Cam2 Automatically via software and the Copal shutter manually as with analog DB lenses).

As for the hole being big enough, I can't judge,  but so far I rememeber it is about the size of the front glass element of the lens: fact is that it works like this.

Thierry

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I really am being thick

Forget the Cam2 it doesnt exist any more

Please explain

The 28 is mounted in a recessed lensboard so that it has a flat front

That flat front is attached to the shutter so the shutter is sitting in front of thefront element ?

Now the lens is inside the bellows

This makes sense

But

i dont dont understand the hole in the lenseboard doesnt seem big enough to allow light into the front element AND there is no aperture control Huh?
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« Last Edit: March 02, 2007, 01:43:03 AM by thsinar » Logged

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« Reply #19 on: March 02, 2007, 01:42:43 AM »
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So the 28 with a DB mount has an aperture control betweet the front and rear elements and the auto shutter communicates this aperture setting to the lens and the hole in auto shutter is greater than 72mm diameter which is the size of the front element of the 28 lens ...

And the controlling software for the aperture is capture shop not a seperate device like the rollei and schnider lens controllers
« Last Edit: March 02, 2007, 01:46:23 AM by Morgan_Moore » Logged

Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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