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Author Topic: Sinar P2 and digital backs  (Read 25244 times)
thsinar
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« Reply #20 on: March 02, 2007, 01:44:17 AM »
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Yes, so it is.

Thierry

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So the 28 with a DB mount has an aperture control betweet the front and rear elements and the auto shutter communicates this aperture setting to the lens and the hole in auto shutter is greater than 72mm diameter which is the size of the front element of the 28 lens ....
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Thierry Hagenauer
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thsinar
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« Reply #21 on: March 02, 2007, 01:48:37 AM »
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.... and just a precision about the sliding adapter: this sliding adapter is built in a way that the back itself is excatly in the same plane where used to be the 4x5" groundglass (and of course in the "Tilt & Swings" assymetrical axes of the p2). therefore there are no 15mm or so lost for this sliding adapter.

I hope I express myself clearly enough.

Thierry


Quote
So the 28 with a DB mount has an aperture control betweet the front and rear elements and the auto shutter communicates this aperture setting to the lens and the hole in auto shutter is greater than 72mm diameter which is the size of the front element of the 28 lens ....
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« Last Edit: March 02, 2007, 01:49:25 AM by thsinar » Logged

Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #22 on: March 02, 2007, 04:11:25 AM »
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Thierry,
Please post publicly here about:
- availability and pricing of LV versions of eMotion, and what promotions.
- same for eVolution75 and eXposure software.
Thank you,
Billy

Matt L,
Please also chime in.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2007, 04:13:06 AM by BJNY » Logged

Guillermo
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« Reply #23 on: March 02, 2007, 08:09:37 AM »
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Hello:

So, if I understand all this, both a 24 and 28 Rodenstock hr lens will work on a P2. But, both mount inside the bag and can only be fired by tether using your Sinar programs.  Finally, you mentioned that focus is so inaccurate and difficult, using just the ground glass, that video focusing is the only practical option for speed and accuracy.  Does this focusing problem arise with sliding backs, as the other gentleman mentioned, but has yet to be answered so far?

Ok, if all the above is true, does this apply to the p3 as well?  Or, does it not suffer from the same problems as the p2 when using wide angle lenses?

Finally, do all the special cameras that have been referred to, in this forum's heading about architectural photography, suffer from the same problems or do they operate differently?

Thanks,

Paul
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thsinar
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« Reply #24 on: March 02, 2007, 09:36:29 AM »
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Dear Paul,

not quite right. I explain myself:

- YES; both the 24 and 28 HR can be mounted and are mounted "inside" the bellows and behind the shutter, LIKE ALL Sinar Digital lenses with Cam 2 and p2.

- NO; they can ALSO be fired with a cable release available for the CAM 2, as well with the cable release of the Copal Automatic Aperture shutter. BUT, in case you want to shoot in multishot mode and with the Copal Automatic Shutter, THEN you have to release from the computer/software and put the shutter on "B". The CAM 2 will control automatically in Multishot mode.

- The focus is very difficult with any short focal lens and on any camera: that is what I meant. Therefore, and since one has the live video feature, this is much more precise and much more convenient to use. Has nothing to do with the sliding adapter, purely a short focal issue (same difficulty to judge focus with a 20mm or even shorter on a 35mm camera).

- the p3 has the same mechanical movement possibilities as the p2, however with a bit finer tolerances for the micrometrical movements (although this is not the main point for me). The p2 can be converted to a p3 by just changing the 2 4x5" frames and replacing it by 2 100mm frames and a 100mm bellow. The digital lenses used on a p3 are the same as the digital ones for the p3, but on different lens mounts:

1. in CMV mount: semi-automatic, central magnetic shutter (aperture set manually and exposure time control through software).
2. in CAB mount: full automatic controlled lenses (exposure time and aperture), these lense have to be used with the Sinar m mounted on the p3 as control unit and shutter. (if you wish more details let me know, I can send you a PM with a image of this configuration).
3. in CPL mount: Copal shutter mounted in-between the lens, like any lens with Copal shutter

The focusing with short lenses on the groundglass of the sliding adapter has the same difficulty as with the p2: it is not a camera issue however see above). Therefore, also here, it is much more easy and precise to make use of the live video.

I think once somebody as tried the composition, the framing and the tilt/swing adjustments and the focusing with the live video function would never go back to a groundglass: this is my experience with all photographers using it. And some have written about this in their posts above.

Is that clear enough? Do not hesitate if you still need clarifications.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
Hello:

So, if I understand all this, both a 24 and 28 Rodenstock hr lens will work on a P2. But, both mount inside the bag and can only be fired by tether using your Sinar programs. Finally, you mentioned that focus is so inaccurate and difficult, using just the ground glass, that video focusing is the only practical option for speed and accuracy. Does this focusing problem arise with sliding backs, as the other gentleman mentioned, but has yet to be answered so far?

Ok, if all the above is true, does this apply to the p3 as well? Or, does it not suffer from the same problems as the p2 when using wide angle lenses?

Finally, do all the special cameras that have been referred to, in this forum's heading about architectural photography, suffer from the same problems or do they operate differently?

Thanks,

Paul
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« Last Edit: March 02, 2007, 09:42:11 AM by thsinar » Logged

Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #25 on: March 02, 2007, 10:10:03 AM »
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So, if I understand all this, both a 24 and 28 Rodenstock hr lens will work on a P2.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104198\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I am still very suspect of using those wides on ANY view camera system

For MOST WA architecture shot only rise and fall is used

Cameras such as alpa/horseman with no tilt will keep the lense parrealel to the 'film' plane because they dont move from parralell

One block of metal is bound to be more rigid than the finest bellows aragngement regardless of make

As far I I can work out upgrading to a P3 which will be more rigid than a P2 is as expensive as a horseman SWA kit

And with horseman thay can can be used with good ol copals that will save a few more $$$$

I would keep the P2 for longer lenses such as 100 where swings and tilts come into thier own

In terms of the viewing glass I am sure he is correct - hard to focus with ANY system

Try before you buy !

SMM
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Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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thsinar
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« Reply #26 on: March 02, 2007, 10:14:18 AM »
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Dear Bill,

I shall inform, in a special tread and in detail about the new SB eMotion 54 LV and SB eMotion 75 L before Monday: it was my intention to do so, since yesterday has been released the official annoucement from Sinar to all our distributors worldwide.

I shall inform about the different versions available and the upgrade possibilities.

However, I could then only give a rough estimate of the prices for the above backs and upgrades, since these vary from one country to another.

- SB eVolution is in its final beta-testing stage with o-series: first units to be seen during the PIE exhibition in Tokyo JP, from March 22nd to 25th. Serial units to be available most probably by end of May.
- Exposure software : no date yet for the release, although I know that it was planed for the 1Q. I shall inform as soon as I know.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
Thierry,
Please post publicly here about:
- availability and pricing of LV versions of eMotion, and what promotions.
- same for eVolution75 and eXposure software.
Thank you,
Billy

Matt L,
Please also chime in.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104174\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Thierry Hagenauer
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thsinar
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« Reply #27 on: March 02, 2007, 10:31:32 AM »
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Dear Sam,

it is more easy to use as you think, believe me. And I am sure some users of this configuration on this forum can confirm (some have even done so a few posts above). I am not used to speak here about sales arguments, butto tell and to inform about what is possible, the possible configurations and aplications, and the limitations, if there are. And more importantly: I have worked for years with it.

HOWEVER: I never said that the p2 is the most convenient system to go out in the field. And the p3 is as well rather a digital version of the p2 for studio work. The question at the begining of the tread was about the possibility to use the p2 with digital backs, and how this works.

As such, these cameras cannot compare with an Alpa, which has a complete different use.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
I am still very suspect of using those wides on ANY view camera system

For MOST WA architecture shot only rise and fall is used

Cameras such as alpa/horseman with no tilt will keep the lense parrealel to the 'film' plane because they dont move from parralell

One block of metal is bound to be more rigid than the finest bellows aragngement regardless of make

As far I I can work out upgrading to a P3 which will be more rigid than a P2 is as expensive as a horseman SWA kit

And with horseman thay can can be used with good ol copals that will save a few more $$$$

I would keep the P2 for longer lenses such as 100 where swings and tilts come into thier own

In terms of the viewing glass I am sure he is correct - hard to focus with ANY system

Try before you buy !

SMM
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #28 on: March 02, 2007, 12:32:22 PM »
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I am not used to speak here about sales arguments

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104229\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Maybe you arent but I am !

The thing is cost is a big factor

I DO have a P2 now as does the OP

I love my P2 (for tabletop)

I am looking for ways to get wide with rise and fall and the quality of non retrofocal lenses

It would seem sensible to explore using our current equipment for new requirements

Upgrading my P2 is one of those options but it has to stack up in $ againt the competition

Judging from Lastra's website it does not appear to stack up financially

Eg a P3 bearer is 1503.00 (wou need 2) while teamwork have a whole NEW P3 at 3672

So basically why bother uprading a P2

At robertwhite a horseman SWD is listed at 3,315 INCLUDING a 24 lens !!!

And a SWD is more rigid with no tilt

I would there for recomend the OP goes down that route for whide lenses while keeping the P2 for longer which I think is a great tool above say 65mm contrary to what other posters say

SMM
« Last Edit: March 02, 2007, 12:35:26 PM by Morgan_Moore » Logged

Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
www.sammorganmoore.com -photography
yaya
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« Reply #29 on: March 02, 2007, 01:02:34 PM »
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Sam, I think you are making more sense than anyone else here with regards to the P2.

For studio work and lenses longer than 47mm, one can use either a direct adapter (from Cambo, Leaf and KG that are being produced for various back mounts) with Live Video (if the back offers it) or a sliding back (from Cambo, Plaubel, Mergin-X, KG, Linhoff, ECO Digital...again with various back mounts) and a ground glass.

47mm is barely focusable with the gearing mechanism. Other cameras such as the Linhoff M679, Cambo Ultima 23D and the Arca Swiss M/F line, allow more accuracy and shorter distances between the front and rear standards, so if pushed that allow the use of wider lenses, even with a sliding back.

The Arca F and the Linhoff will still give some limited tilt/ swing, even with 35mm and 38mm.

Anything wider, I would go with a WA camera such as the Cambo WD-S, ALPA or Horseman SWD.

Yair
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mattlap2
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« Reply #30 on: March 02, 2007, 01:29:57 PM »
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Thierry,
Please post publicly here about:
- availability and pricing of LV versions of eMotion, and what promotions.
- same for eVolution75 and eXposure software.
Thank you,
Billy

Matt L,
Please also chime in.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104174\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Billy,

Thierry's responses are pretty much inline with what we have been told.

April will see the Emotion LV backs start to ship.  Should have pricing this week ...

May will see the Evolution backs start to ship.    Price is $32,000 US.

June is the projected date for EXposure software.

Obviously we are at the mercy of the factories, but those are the dates we have been given at the moment.

Thanks,

Matt LaPointe
Sinar Bron Imaging
National Sales Support Specialist
(219) 670-9905
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thsinar
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« Reply #31 on: March 02, 2007, 10:59:30 PM »
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Dear Sam,

It seems that you misunderstand what I was saying about upgrading a p2 to a p3: you DO NOT have to change the "BEARERS"!!!

You ONLY have to change the "FRAMES of your p2: that is a big and huge difference in pricing!
The bearer is the most pricy part of the camera, not the frame.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
Upgrading my P2 is one of those options but it has to stack up in $ againt the competition

Judging from Lastra's website it does not appear to stack up financially

Eg a P3 bearer is 1503.00 (wou need 2) while teamwork have a whole NEW P3 at 3672

So basically why bother uprading a P2

At robertwhite a horseman SWD is listed at 3,315 INCLUDING a 24 lens !!!

And a SWD is more rigid with no tilt

I would there for recomend the OP goes down that route for whide lenses while keeping the P2 for longer which I think is a great tool above say 65mm contrary to what other posters say

SMM
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #32 on: March 02, 2007, 11:16:27 PM »
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It seems that you misunderstand what I was saying about upgrading a p2 to a p3: you DO NOT have to change the "BEARERS"!!!


[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=104353\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Interesting

That is why is is good you being here on this forum

Becuase no UK dealer that I know has a clear website for the sinar system

I stand corrected a P2 - P3 kit change is around 1100

no idea if this includes Wide andgle Bag or a H1-> sinar plate (doubt it)

(still around the price of a Horseman)

So can you mount a 28 with a copal shutter this way

SMM
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thsinar
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« Reply #33 on: March 02, 2007, 11:17:47 PM »
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Dear Yaya,

I would like to answer here and put in doubt your claim, that it is barely not focusable with the gearing mechanism of the p2 and when using a shorter lens than the 47mm.

Our live video does allow precise and accurate focusing, with any lens in our sortiment: again, I am speaking here from experience and after having worked on such configurations for years back (and still am).

Shorter distance or not betwen the standards is not the question: it is possible to focus at infinity with any digital lens mount on the p2, included the 28mm. That was the question asked and which I answered in detail. And this also WITH a sliding adapter, since this one is mounted exactly in the same image plane as the 4x5" frame of the p2 (allowing 2-points Scheimpflug and sharpness plane adjustments like on the p2 analog).

I think anyone working with the p2 digital can only confirm that (see comments from users above).

BUT, I also said that the gear mechanism has to be in good conditions and well adjusted, which can be done in any Sinar servicing station).

Bets regards,
Thierry

Quote
47mm is barely focusable with the gearing mechanism. Other cameras such as the Linhoff M679, Cambo Ultima 23D and the Arca Swiss M/F line, allow more accuracy and shorter distances between the front and rear standards, so if pushed that allow the use of wider lenses, even with a sliding back.

The Arca F and the Linhoff will still give some limited tilt/ swing, even with 35mm and 38mm.

Anything wider, I would go with a WA camera such as the Cambo WD-S, ALPA or Horseman SWD.

Yair
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Thierry Hagenauer
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thsinar
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« Reply #34 on: March 02, 2007, 11:24:15 PM »
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Dear Sam,

Yes, it is this way you can mount a 28mm with a Copal shutter.

Pricing: I cannot speak here, since price vary from one country to another. All I wanted to say, is that it is never such expensive as changing the bearers (this part of the camera, p2 or p3 is the most expensive part).

Bets regards,
Thierry

Quote
Interesting

That is why is is good you being here on this forum

Becuase no UK dealer that I know has a clear website for the sinar system

I stand corrected a P2 - P3 kit change is around 1100

no idea if this includes Wide andgle Bag or a H1-> sinar plate (doubt it)

(still around the price of a Horseman)

So can you mount a 28 with a copal shutter this way

SMM
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Thierry Hagenauer
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yaya
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« Reply #35 on: March 03, 2007, 12:41:30 AM »
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Thierry,

I appreciate your experience with using Sinar backs on P2, however what people here are trying to acertain is if one can mount A digital back on a P2 with off-the-shelf copal shutter lenses (APO-Digitar 35mm, Super-Angulon 38mm etc.), without having to take/send the camera to go through surgery (and an expensive one that is). This was also the question coming from the OP.

The P2 is a fantastic camera for working in the studio with normal and long FL lenses, with or without Live Video, but unfortunately for wider lenses it doesn't offer the same level of rigidness and accuracy as the newer generation of 6X9 cameras.

Like yourself, I have customers working with many different backs on many different cameras and in my experience, when it comes to WA, they all choose to leave the P2 behind.

Yair



Quote
Dear Yaya,

I would like to answer here and put in doubt your claim, that it is barely not focusable with the gearing mechanism of the p2 and when using a shorter lens than the 47mm.

Our live video does allow precise and accurate focusing, with any lens in our sortiment: again, I am speaking here from experience and after having worked on such configurations for years back (and still am).

Shorter distance or not betwen the standards is not the question: it is possible to focus at infinity with any digital lens mount on the p2, included the 28mm. That was the question asked and which I answered in detail. And this also WITH a sliding adapter, since this one is mounted exactly in the same image plane as the 4x5" frame of the p2 (allowing 2-points Scheimpflug and sharpness plane adjustments like on the p2 analog).

I think anyone working with the p2 digital can only confirm that (see comments from users above).

BUT, I also said that the gear mechanism has to be in good conditions and well adjusted, which can be done in any Sinar servicing station).

Bets regards,
Thierry
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thsinar
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« Reply #36 on: March 03, 2007, 01:07:32 AM »
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Yaya,

thanks for your comment.

Actually, that was not the initial question, to which I have tried to give answer, means if one can mount copal shutter lenses, but one of the possibilities among others which I have described in an earlier post above. And it was not and never the question if the p2 ist the most convenient choice with WA and outside the studio. Better to leave the choice and the decision to the endusers.

Again: I do not claim that the p2 is the best in any situation or outside the studio, but that IT IS possible to use it in any of the mentioned and described configurations and that it is possible to reach and set an accurate focus with it with the live video feature, with any of the digital (or not digital) lenses listed in our products line. I am trying to give all possible solutions to a customer owing a p2 camera and what he can do (or not do) with this camera to get the maximum out of it and not leaving it on the shelves. Period.

"Surgery": most of our customers take good care of their p2 and equipment in general, and don't need to service their 2 to become digital. A "surgery" is never necessary, unless you have dropped the camera: May be an adjustment of the gears, which is an easy and non-costy service. Having said that,I wouldn't ever allow myself to comment and judge prices of repairing or servicing a Leaf back, when needed, and if it would make more sense to change it to another product.

Best regards,
Thierry



Quote
Thierry,

I appreciate your experience with using Sinar backs on P2, however what people here are trying to acertain is if one can mount A digital back on a P2 with off-the-shelf copal shutter lenses (APO-Digitar 35mm, Super-Angulon 38mm etc.), without having to take/send the camera to go through surgery (and an expensive one that is). This was also the question coming from the OP.

The P2 is a fantastic camera for working in the studio with normal and long FL lenses, with or without Live Video, but unfortunately for wider lenses it doesn't offer the same level of rigidness and accuracy as the newer generation of 6X9 cameras.

Like yourself, I have customers working with many different backs on many different cameras and in my experience, when it comes to WA, they all choose to leave the P2 behind.

Yair
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Thierry Hagenauer
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yaya
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« Reply #37 on: March 03, 2007, 01:31:12 AM »
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Thierry, no need to be so defensive,

You are assuming that I'm trying to diss your product...well I'm not!!
You should know well enough that there are thousands of non-Sinar backs out there that are mounted on P2, P, F and Norma cameras.
Many (most?) of these backs use the Sinarcam I and DB lenses/ shutter controllers very reliably and successfuly since 1996 (Leaf DCB II Live).

Still, if you go back to the 1st post on this thread, the question was about using digital backs on P2 and using 24mm and 28mm on it with digital backs.

You gave your input about using Sinar backs on the P2 and I'm giving my input about using other backs on it.

A bog standard P2 with standard lens boards and direct or sliding adapters is very difficult to use with these lenses, unless the camera goes through the modifications that you have described i.e. behind-the-lens shutter, remote triggering etc.

Yair
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thsinar
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« Reply #38 on: March 03, 2007, 02:01:46 AM »
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Yaya, I'm certainly not on the defensive side.

You are suggesting again something in the end of your post below: that the p2 needs a modification, which is absolutely the wrong wording and misleading readers. There is no modification needed.

That it is very difficult to use is obvioulsy something which on we disagree.

I have in the contrary the feeling that you are on the offensive each and any time you have the opportunity to do so against others not in your camp.

I simply find your style and suggestions a bit displaced: suggesting that a Sinar p2 needs surgery and that this is expensive and that there are better ways to go is not in your attributes, IMO.

Best regards,
Thierry




Quote
Thierry, no need to be so defensive,

You are assuming that I'm trying to diss your product...well I'm not!!
You should know well enough that there are thousands of non-Sinar backs out there that are mounted on P2, P, F and Norma cameras.
Many (most?) of these backs use the Sinarcam I and DB lenses/ shutter controllers very reliably and successfuly since 1996 (Leaf DCB II Live).

Still, if you go back to the 1st post on this thread, the question was about using digital backs on P2 and using 24mm and 28mm on it with digital backs.

You gave your input about using Sinar backs on the P2 and I'm giving my input about using other backs on it.

A bog standard P2 with standard lens boards and direct or sliding adapters is very difficult to use with these lenses, unless the camera goes through the modifications that you have described i.e. behind-the-lens shutter, remote triggering etc.

Yair
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Thierry Hagenauer
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yaya
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« Reply #39 on: March 03, 2007, 02:28:51 AM »
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I hear you...by "camp" you mean those who dare using a back other than yours on your cameras?

I don't belong to any "camp" when it comes to cameras and I turst my experience for giving a solid and un-biased advice.

I have given my comments on the use of 3rd party backs on the P2 and as far as modifications go, these are YOUR words, not mine:

http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....ndpost&p=104217

I also don't think that the way this discussion progresses helps the OP in choosing his route, therefore I suggest that we both give it a rest.

 Yair

Quote
I have in the contrary the feeling that you are on the offensive each and any time you have the opportunity to do so against others not in your camp.

I simply find your style and suggestions a bit displaced: suggesting that a Sinar p2 needs surgery and that this is expensive and that there are better ways to go is not in your attributes, IMO.

Best regards,
Thierry
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