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Author Topic: ZD £5500  (Read 7731 times)
KAP
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« on: March 06, 2007, 12:06:28 PM »
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Robert White is selling the ZD with a lens for £5500. +vat. Now that's tempting. i'm looking at Phaseone's etc, but this looks good. So what's the problem with the ZD, What makes the backs better, the ZD has a large sensor like all the backs and 14 bit. Why is it judged not to deliver quite like the backs?

Kevin.
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michael
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« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2007, 12:58:05 PM »
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I have not yet tested a ZD myself (though I expect to get one for testing in the next few weeks, as there is now a Canadian distributor). So, I can't comment about its image quality, yet.

But, something to keep in mind is that image quality is only partially about specs and sensor size. There's a lot of science, quite a bit of art, and not a little black magic involved in taking a sensor and turning it into a back. A few companies have developed such expertise, but only a few. Being a camera maker, such as Mamiya, doesn't of itself provide any easy path to making a digital capability work well.

Michael
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« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2007, 01:02:12 PM »
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Robert White is selling the ZD with a lens for £5500. +vat. Now that's tempting. i'm looking at Phaseone's etc, but this looks good. So what's the problem with the ZD, What makes the backs better, the ZD has a large sensor like all the backs and 14 bit. Why is it judged not to deliver quite like the backs?

Kevin.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105031\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I have had very limited experience with the ZD but it seemed much noisier than the Aptus 22.

The big negative for me is the fact that you can only use Mamiya lenses with it. While these can be surprisingly good, the great thing about a digital back is that it opens up access to Schneider and Rodenstock digital lenses which are quite fantastic.

Oh... and I need camera movements, so it means a digital back is needed. If I was shooting people or fashion I might have gone for a ZD, but it would be a tough decision between it and a Canon 1DsII.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2007, 01:03:37 PM by free1000 » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2007, 02:25:25 PM »
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I have had very limited experience with the ZD but it seemed much noisier than the Aptus 22.

The big negative for me is the fact that you can only use Mamiya lenses with it. While these can be surprisingly good, the great thing about a digital back is that it opens up access to Schneider and Rodenstock digital lenses which are quite fantastic.

Oh... and I need camera movements, so it means a digital back is needed. If I was shooting people or fashion I might have gone for a ZD, but it would be a tough decision between it and a Canon 1DsII.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105045\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


hi there,

i unfortunatly had the zd as one of the first owners in germany- want to say i felt at the end like their stupid testperson.
this camera is the biggest crap i ever owned in my life.

especially if you want to shot people or even worse fashion- this thing is completly unusable.
so far the quality at and beyond 100 asa is great- the handling is complete bullshit.
i dont know any client,model, portraitperson or however who wants to wait fully 2 minutes till the camera buffer is cleared after only 10 shots- jpgs or raw doesnt matter, before you can really go on to shot another 10 - the same if tethered- which has is own problems.

and mamiya germany which is based in my hometown munich- and i was their personal kown customer since 13 years - completly disapointed me ( friendly spoken).
they were at this time beginning to middle of last year completly convinced about there piece- i guess they are only theoritical technics.
and even then they should realize that the bufferwriting is completly unacceptable, as well as the menue and display (waiting up ages to show up the picture- want show before buffer is clear).
but worst of it all- the quality above 100asa is completly unusable, even with noiseninja postprod.

at the end i was so frustrated about the camera and there arrogant service and neverkeeping firmwareupgrade promises that i gave it back end of year to my dealer, while loosing a quite huge amount of cash, because the leasing company did´t like to quite my contract.
at the end i was just happy to get rid of it- and all the rest of my mamiya gear (had rz,pro645,later 645afd before)

changed to hassyh3d22 in december - which is cool now and quite a different leage to work with.

this is just my experience which i would like to tell everyone who thinks about purchasing a zd- and! wants to work prof. with it in the portrait or fashion area.


cheers
bernd
« Last Edit: March 06, 2007, 02:55:52 PM by bernardo68 » Logged
KAP
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« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2007, 05:01:17 PM »
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especially if you want to shot people or even worse fashion- this thing is completly unusable.
so far the quality at and beyond 100 asa is great- the handling is complete bullshit.
i dont know any client,model, portraitperson or however who wants to wait fully 2 minutes till the camera buffer is cleared after only 10 shots- jpgs or raw doesnt matter, before you can really go on to shot another 10 - the same if tethered- which has is own problems.

You need say no more, 10 shots wipes it off my list to then.

Kevin.
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2007, 06:04:50 PM »
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Robert White is selling the ZD with a lens for £5500. +vat. Now that's tempting. i'm looking at Phaseone's etc, but this looks good. So what's the problem with the ZD, What makes the backs better, the ZD has a large sensor like all the backs and 14 bit. Why is it judged not to deliver quite like the backs?

Kevin.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I have been happy about the image quality delivered by my Mamiya ZD.

I have been using it for landscape applications in various environments for a few months, and although there are some issues, the camera does perform.

There might be some pixel peeing differences with Phase P25 or Leaf A22, but they really are of that magnitude I believe.

Some samples are online:

[a href=\"http://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardlanguillier/sets/72157594375306114/]http://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardlangui...57594375306114/[/url]

Regards,
Bernard
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« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2007, 06:25:09 PM »
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Robert White is selling the ZD with a lens for £5500. +vat. Now that's tempting. i'm looking at Phaseone's etc, but this looks good. So what's the problem with the ZD, What makes the backs better, the ZD has a large sensor like all the backs and 14 bit. Why is it judged not to deliver quite like the backs?

Kevin.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105031\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

the ZD can produce great files....if you can live with its limitations (slow shooting, buffer, stay at 100)....but for people or fashion i would not recommend it....the limited bit depth will also give you mushy shadow detail (comparable to DSLRs) and sometimes problems with gradations (backdrops)....it really depends what you are shooting....
you can get the P20 including a 645afdII and 80mm for 9000$ right now, the P21 with the mamiya is a little more....both will give you the speed and versatility you need for people and fashion with plenty of filesize for anything up to 16x20.....of course both have crop factors....the advantages to this set-up: get a back-up 645 afd on ebay and rent a P45 or P30 when you have a big job.....
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« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2007, 01:28:27 AM »
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Robert White is selling the ZD with a lens for £5500. +vat. Now that's tempting. i'm looking at Phaseone's etc, but this looks good. So what's the problem with the ZD, What makes the backs better, the ZD has a large sensor like all the backs and 14 bit. Why is it judged not to deliver quite like the backs?

Kevin.
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Hi
It really is a price thing but also the ZD has grown on me as I use it way more than my Canon 5D. I also have a large range of Mamiya lenses and 2 645 AFD bodies. One body is the 645 AFDII. On larger jobs we rent the Aptus 22, on editorial we use the ZD. We shoot studio and 90% of the time is at iso 50. Using raw developer the files from the ZD are fantastic. For the most part the buffer is not an issue for me. Take a look at our web site and there are 2 images shot with the ZD. I also love Leaf and it makes sense to reduce the ZD price as it has been out for more than a year now. Also finally L&P will be the agents for Mamiya in Australia, they are also the Phase One agents.
Thanks Denis
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2007, 03:59:11 AM »
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We shoot studio and 90% of the time is at iso 50. Using raw developer the files from the ZD are fantastic.
My Webpage
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Denis,

I have been using Lightroom with ZD files recently and it does an OK job.

The interface of lightroom is much easier to use than that of Raw Developper, especially in terms of color control.

RAW Developper on the other hand is much better at handling fringing and at extractring the last bit of detail from the files. It is also much faster than Lightroom to convert the files.

I would expect it to be also very good with files from other digital backs, I am a bit surprised that it doesn't get more attention here.

Regards,
Bernard
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« Reply #9 on: March 07, 2007, 05:51:18 AM »
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hi
I have had my ZD for about 8months now and I like it more every day. On a recent executive portrait shoot for an annual report I used the ZD at 200iso. I only had about 2/3 min for each executive and had to change the location for every portrait!  I decided to use tungsten lights only( easier to move around ) I photographed 44 execs and I were very pleased with the results. All were very sharp and with silky pics noise was more than acceptable, in any case not any worse than film. I only used one lens, the 80 at about f5.6 at 1/30 sec, mostly This one job paid for half of my ZD! And , I thought was adequate compensation for the stress during the shoot! while I have no doubt that the backs are ultimately better than the ZD, price, for me was also a consideration. for the price of a H2 zoom plus p20 back I have just bought myself a very nice car to go with my ZD!

My experience with buying cameras: dont believe a word the salesmen tell you. Test it for yourself. this forum also helps a lot.

I have also just returned from a weekend in Mozambique, totally amazing place, were I did a lot of photographs handheld with the 80mm lens. Also at 200iso. In B&W looks very sharp with a small touch of 'grain'. turns out to be a nice 'street' camera too.

thanks Ivan
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« Reply #10 on: March 07, 2007, 06:14:51 AM »
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Hi
It really is a price thing but also the ZD has grown on me as I use it way more than my Canon 5D. I also have a large range of Mamiya lenses and 2 645 AFD bodies. One body is the 645 AFDII. On larger jobs we rent the Aptus 22, on editorial we use the ZD. We shoot studio and 90% of the time is at iso 50. Using raw developer the files from the ZD are fantastic. For the most part the buffer is not an issue for me. Take a look at our web site and there are 2 images shot with the ZD. I also love Leaf and it makes sense to reduce the ZD price as it has been out for more than a year now. Also finally L&P will be the agents for Mamiya in Australia, they are also the Phase One agents.
Thanks Denis
My Webpage
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Lovelly work, regardless of what it's shot on.

Kevin.
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KAP
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« Reply #11 on: March 07, 2007, 06:20:56 AM »
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I have been happy about the image quality delivered by my Mamiya ZD.

I have been using it for landscape applications in various environments for a few months, and although there are some issues, the camera does perform.

There might be some pixel peeing differences with Phase P25 or Leaf A22, but they really are of that magnitude I believe.

Some samples are online:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardlangui...57594375306114/

Regards,
Bernard
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105108\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Bernard,
I have seen your work before with the ZD, I can see it suits your needs. The buffer would be a problem for me. I'm in Aircraft a lot of the time, waiting for the camera to let me take a picture is just not cost effective. I'm paying over £16.0 per minute for a helicopter any deadtime comes out of my profit. I would expect a ZD mkII soon, after all fixing the buffer is a easy job compared with other digital engineering problems. In fact you do wonder why they have not done it already.

Kevin.
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yaya
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« Reply #12 on: March 07, 2007, 06:28:01 AM »
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Bernard,
I have seen your work before with the ZD, I can see it suits your needs. The buffer would be a problem for me. I'm in Aircraft a lot of the time, waiting for the camera to let me take a picture is just not cost effective. I'm paying over £16.0 per minute for a helicopter any deadtime comes out of my profit. I would expect a ZD mkII soon, after all fixing the buffer is a easy job compared with other digital engineering problems. In fact you do wonder why they have not done it already.

Kevin.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105203\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Kevin if you are UK based, may I suggest that you arrange a demo where you test the ZD and an Aptus 22 on an AFDII side-by-side?
If you can "borrow" a ZD I'll bring the Aptus so you can have an idea of the differences in image quality/ speed etc. while both systems use the same 22MP Dalsa sensor and the same lenses.

Best regards

Yair
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ronno
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« Reply #13 on: March 07, 2007, 08:58:51 AM »
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Nice web  site Dennis.

Do you not run into the buffer issues which the others are speaking of?

By the way, do you like LiveBooks?

Best,
-ron
« Last Edit: March 07, 2007, 09:01:56 AM by ronno » Logged
Quentin
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« Reply #14 on: March 07, 2007, 09:52:35 AM »
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The ZD is like a great big Kodak SLR/n.  I think its an excellent camera in most respects with some irritating limitations.  

Like the Kodak, your should shoot Raw and overexpose slightly.  There are no "mushy shadows" if you understand how the camera designed; quite the reverse, the dynamic range is significantly better than any dslr.  Just expose to the right to make the most of the dynamic range, and stay at or below 100 ISO.

Using the right raw decoder helps.  I use Silkypix and would not touch anything else.  It really is the key that unlocks the potential in the ZD.

Handling is excellent, but the slow and limited buffer could be a limitation for some
(not for me though).  Using a fast card helps  

At Robert White's price it's quite a bargain for such a high quality tool that blows any dslr out of the water for image quality at low ISO.

Quentin


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Nice web  site Dennis.

Do you not run into the buffer issues which the others are speaking of?

By the way, do you like LiveBooks?

Best,
-ron
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« Reply #15 on: March 07, 2007, 12:11:33 PM »
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hi
And , I thought was adequate compensation for the stress during the shoot! while I have no doubt that the backs are ultimately better than the ZD, price, for me was also a consideration. for the price of a H2 zoom plus p20 back I have just bought myself a very nice car to go with my ZD!



thanks Ivan
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105198\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

like i said: P20 /mamiya 645afdII/80mm is 8900 new with full warranty....that is cheaper then the ZD....
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« Reply #16 on: March 07, 2007, 12:35:16 PM »
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Nice web  site Dennis.

Do you not run into the buffer issues which the others are speaking of?

By the way, do you like LiveBooks?

Best,
-ron
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hi
That is why I rent the Aptus 22 on larger Ad jobs. There the buget allows the rental plus I can keep up with technology by renting. And for insurance I have the ZD as a backup as it uses the same lenses. But for the most part the buffer is not an issue & for the first 11 shots the ZD is faster than the Mamiya 645 AFDII/Aptus 22 combination. They both claim 1.2 fs but the ZD is faster before that buffer fills up. In tethered mode I prefer the Leaf, just has better software however the Mamiya software is very simple to use. Depends on how you shoot as my partner will shoot slower & direct more than me. If you are this type of shooter that shoots fast then the Aptus 22 would be much better. Since we have owned the ZD we own more Mamiya lenses now. I would like to get a 24-105 for my Canon 5D but I can't justify it for the amount i use that camera anymore. I shoot mostly handheld with the ZD.
    On the subject of Raw Processor yes it is way faster than Leaf or Canon software. I use it with the 5D also but haven't got a profile I am happy with for the Aptus 22. I have got a few profiles for the ZD which I have been meaning to post but have been too busy.
   Finally with Live Books we love it. We have the Lite version and are doing monthly payments. The fact that you can upload your own images is majic to us, our previous web site was 2 years out of date. There service is fantastic & changes are made within a day or two of requesting ( ie PDF downloads etc ). I just looked at there web stats and they even have country breakdowns, or if the viewers were on MAC or PC. That was cool.
Thanks Denis[a href=\"http://www.montalbetticampbell.com]My Webpage[/url]
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ronno
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« Reply #17 on: March 07, 2007, 02:34:21 PM »
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Great, thanks for all the info Dennis!
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« Reply #18 on: March 07, 2007, 02:37:34 PM »
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is the slow buffer issue with the zd something that can be fixed in software..and therefore the zd can be upgraded as such or is it something that requires a whole new processor etc in the camera.i.e. a ZD2?

Marc
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« Reply #19 on: March 07, 2007, 03:21:19 PM »
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Bernard,
I'm in Aircraft a lot of the time, waiting for the camera to let me take a picture is just not cost effective. I'm paying over £16.0 per minute for a helicopter any deadtime comes out of my profit. I would expect a ZD mkII soon, after all fixing the buffer is a easy job compared with other digital engineering problems. In fact you do wonder why they have not done it already.

Kevin.
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Hi,

what kind of camera do you use for the helicopter ?

regards,

Thomas
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