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Author Topic: Hy6 prismfinder designet to fit sensor size?  (Read 20169 times)
Rune Werner Molnes
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« on: March 08, 2007, 06:46:21 AM »
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Hi,

Does anyone know if the Hy6/Aif prism finder will come in a crop version? E.g designed for the 48x38mm size sensor found in for instance the Leaf Aptus 75 sensor.

In similar way as the H3D, where what you see is what you capture.

Best Regards,

Rune Werner Molnes
www.runemolnes.com
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thsinar
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« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2007, 05:23:34 AM »
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Dear Rune,

the prism finder for the Sinar Hy6 is designed to cover the 6x6 format, since it is a 6x6 camera. The smaller sensors shall be indicated by means of a format masking.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
Hi,

Does anyone know if the Hy6/Aif prism finder will come in a crop version? E.g designed for the 48x38mm size sensor found in for instance the Leaf Aptus 75 sensor.

In similar way as the H3D, where what you see is what you capture.

Best Regards,

Rune Werner Molnes
www.runemolnes.com
- Photographer -
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105447\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Thierry Hagenauer
thasia_cn@yahoo.com
BJL
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« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2007, 09:18:55 AM »
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the prism finder for the Sinar Hy6 is designed to cover the 6x6 format, since it is a 6x6 camera.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105620\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
So over 40% of the VF image is redundant when used with a digital back, and the size of the "digital crop" part of the image is likely to be significantly less than with the H system viewfinder adapted specifically to the "36x48" sensor format.
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yaya
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« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2007, 09:53:06 AM »
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You can use this image to visualize the frame coverage.

With a 49X37 chip in a 48X36 VF you actually "loose" 0.5mm around the frame...this makes the "full frame 48X36" statement a bit weird...
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Carl Glover
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« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2007, 10:18:02 AM »
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Unlike the H3D, the back rotates and it can also take a 120 film back so it needs a 6x6 screen to fit everything in.

GOOD!
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BJL
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« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2007, 10:28:05 AM »
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the back rotates and it can also take a 120 film back so it needs a 6x6 screen to fit everything in.

GOOD!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105648\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I prefer the H system approach of offering two viewfinders adapted to the different formats, film and digital; I suspect that a many users will only ever use digital backs with these bodies, never film.

Even with digital back rotation, a 48x48 (49x49?) digital format adapted VF would be better than a 56x56.
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mcfoto
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« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2007, 02:45:51 PM »
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Hi
At least this system can grow & when are the sensors going to be a true 6x4.5?
Thanks Denis
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Denis Montalbetti
Montalbetti+Campbell
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James Russell
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« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2007, 03:30:00 PM »
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You can use this image to visualize the frame coverage.

With a 49X37 chip in a 48X36 VF you actually "loose" 0.5mm around the frame...this makes the "full frame 48X36" statement a bit weird...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105643\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yair,

How will the backs rotate?  Like an RZ where you flip a switch and the back just rotates or do you have to take the back off of the camera to change orientation?

Also looking down in the viewfinder, will it give a different crop or any indication of which orientation you are in?

JR
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pss
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« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2007, 04:19:01 PM »
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So over 40% of the VF image is redundant when used with a digital back, and the size of the "digital crop" part of the image is likely to be significantly less than with the H system viewfinder adapted specifically to the "36x48" sensor format.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105637\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


hasselblad just crops the finder...the image cannot be any bigger then the sensor size...the Hy6 (just like mamiya, contax,...) will probably provide finder masks for the same effect....
i would much rather have the full finder, have the back rotate!!! and mask the unused part off...on my RZ the crop is even more, because the finder is 6x7...but that does not make the image smaller, only smaller in comparison....a certain part of the male anatomy does not get longer just because the legs are shorter:)
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sundstei
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« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2007, 04:51:27 PM »
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hasselblad just crops the finder...the image cannot be any bigger then the sensor size...the Hy6 (just like mamiya, contax,...) will probably provide finder masks for the same effect....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105716\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Wrong. The Hasselblad HVD90x has a higher degree of magnification compared to the normal HV90x viewfinder (3.1x vs 2.7x). Hence it magnifies the smaller area to appear the same size as "full frame" in the viewfinder.

Svein Erik
« Last Edit: March 09, 2007, 04:53:22 PM by sundstei » Logged
pss
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« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2007, 05:20:50 PM »
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Wrong. The Hasselblad HVD90x has a higher degree of magnification compared to the normal HV90x viewfinder (3.1x vs 2.7x). Hence it magnifies the smaller area to appear the same size as "full frame" in the viewfinder.

Svein Erik
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105730\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

if i look through the loupe of my RZ WLF, the masked area of my P30 appears full size...is that what you mean? i can do the same with the prism for the RZ by attaching the focus aid which magnifies the area and makes the P30 "full frame"...maybe mamiya should advertise that....
no matter how you look at it, it is just playing with words and numbers....
the WLF of the Hy6 (looks like the same as for the 6008) has a loupe which would have the same effect....
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Mark_Tucker
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« Reply #11 on: March 09, 2007, 05:41:34 PM »
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...maybe mamiya should advertise that....
no matter how you look at it, it is just playing with words and numbers....
the WLF of the Hy6 (looks like the same as for the 6008) has a loupe which would have the same effect....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105736\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

If I hold my head back from the Contax viewfinder just a bit, it keeps me from seeing the full frame in the viewfinder, but it sees exactly what the chip sees.

I think I'm gonna manufacture a head bracket, that you'd slide your head into, that holds your head in just that certain sweet spot, and I'm gonna hire me some big-city Copywriter to trump up some big words to tout my "full frame!" device with my Contax.

Hasselblad's marketing department should be marched out to the side yard and shot at dawn. Who do they think they're talking to? If Victor Hasselblad was alive, he'd shake his head in disgust.

Would be like Mini-Cooper bringing a potential customer into their showroom, but before they get them to the car, they hand the customer a set of Mr. Magoo coke-bottle glasses that magnify everything, and then they say, "See, It's a 7-Series big BMW!"

Yeah, right.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2007, 05:46:31 PM by Mark_Tucker » Logged
William.Rennaker
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« Reply #12 on: March 09, 2007, 07:57:16 PM »
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If I hold my head back from the Contax viewfinder just a bit, it keeps me from seeing the full frame in the viewfinder, but it sees exactly what the chip sees.

I think I'm gonna manufacture a head bracket, that you'd slide your head into, that holds your head in just that certain sweet spot, and I'm gonna hire me some big-city Copywriter to trump up some big words to tout my "full frame!" device with my Contax.

Hasselblad's marketing department should be marched out to the side yard and shot at dawn. Who do they think they're talking to? If Victor Hasselblad was alive, he'd shake his head in disgust.

Would be like Mini-Cooper bringing a potential customer into their showroom, but before they get them to the car, they hand the customer a set of Mr. Magoo coke-bottle glasses that magnify everything, and then they say, "See, It's a 7-Series big BMW!"

Yeah, right.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105739\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hey Tuck, you off the prozac? ;-)
« Last Edit: March 09, 2007, 07:57:41 PM by William.Rennaker » Logged
Mark_Tucker
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« Reply #13 on: March 09, 2007, 10:25:25 PM »
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Hey Tuck, you off the prozac? ;-)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105749\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Damn right. And I'm back to my Fighting Weight.

What's just frustrating about all this is, when you've built "a look" out of shooting a 6x8cm film camera for so many years, and then one day, they tell you, "It's time to shoot digital", but then they don't hand you another 6x8 camera, but instead, a sissy little 645, with a whole different kind of focus fall-off, and then, here come all the back makers, and just to mess with you even more, they don't make the chip match the (sissy) camera, but they make the chip *even smaller*, and then have the gall to call it "a full-frame camera", well, yeah, it kinda gets under your skin a little bit.

Does that set a record for longest run-on sentence?
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thsinar
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« Reply #14 on: March 09, 2007, 10:49:25 PM »
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Nice sentence, indeed! Record set as the longest? This I don't now.

More seriously, I understand your frustration. Digital MF format has changed the way to handle things and the gear to be used with, even more in "view-camera" shooting. It's still in constant evolution, on all sides: resolution, quality, handling, speed, match of the camera with the sensor, lenses, software, etc ...

We, understand "Camera/back makers", would be happy to have such sensors so-called full-frame, but current technology with related costs give it the limits. We are all trying to cope with the reality of today, and IMO we do it quite well: this reminds me having read in the begining of the 90's the following, concerning digital:

"If film would not exist, we would have to invent it"!

Does this still apply? I don't think so.

Let's be honest and recognize that digital is fantastic, and the images produced with it are as well, at least that is my opinion.

Thierry

Quote
Damn right. And I'm back to my Fighting Weight.

What's just frustrating about all this is, when you've built "a look" out of shooting a 6x8cm film camera for so many years, and then one day, they tell you, "It's time to shoot digital", but then they don't hand you another 6x8 camera, but instead, a sissy little 645, with a whole different kind of focus fall-off, and then, here come all the back makers, and just to mess with you even more, they don't make the chip match the (sissy) camera, but they make the chip *even smaller*, and then have the gall to call it "a full-frame camera", well, yeah, it kinda gets under your skin a little bit.

Does that set a record for longest run-on sentence?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105763\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #15 on: March 09, 2007, 11:09:12 PM »
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Unlike the H3D, the back rotates and it can also take a 120 film back so it needs a 6x6 screen to fit everything in.

GOOD!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105648\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Unlike the H3D, Sinar/Leaf tacitly admit that we will see larger chips in the near future, and are selling their customers a camera that is future-proofed. Now if they just made a deal with Phase, we'd really love them

Edmund
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Edmund Ronald, Ph.D. 
yaya
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« Reply #16 on: March 10, 2007, 12:45:06 AM »
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Yair,

How will the backs rotate?  Like an RZ where you flip a switch and the back just rotates or do you have to take the back off of the camera to change orientation?
You have to take it off
Quote
Also looking down in the viewfinder, will it give a different crop or any indication of which orientation you are in?
JR
See my previous post with the masks, it'll be the same as in a V series or an RZ, but I'll ask about having another icon in the VF...
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yaya
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« Reply #17 on: March 10, 2007, 12:51:18 AM »
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Damn right. And I'm back to my Fighting Weight.

What's just frustrating about all this is, when you've built "a look" out of shooting a 6x8cm film camera for so many years, and then one day, they tell you, "It's time to shoot digital", but then they don't hand you another 6x8 camera, but instead, a sissy little 645, with a whole different kind of focus fall-off, and then, here come all the back makers, and just to mess with you even more, they don't make the chip match the (sissy) camera, but they make the chip *even smaller*, and then have the gall to call it "a full-frame camera", well, yeah, it kinda gets under your skin a little bit.

Does that set a record for longest run-on sentence?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105763\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

With your writing, Mark, it could be much longer and will still be worth every milliisecond spent reading it!!!!
The good thing is (and I'm sure I'm not the first to tell you that...), YOU (Mark Tucker) would be creating beautiful images with ANY size/ shape/ ratio/ resolution/ lens/ format camera, with or without a VF...

Yair
« Last Edit: March 10, 2007, 01:35:04 AM by yaya » Logged
sundstei
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« Reply #18 on: March 10, 2007, 03:53:56 AM »
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if i look through the loupe of my RZ WLF, the masked area of my P30 appears full size...is that what you mean? i can do the same with the prism for the RZ by attaching the focus aid which magnifies the area and makes the P30 "full frame"...maybe mamiya should advertise that....
no matter how you look at it, it is just playing with words and numbers....
the WLF of the Hy6 (looks like the same as for the 6008) has a loupe which would have the same effect....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105736\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The added magnification gives you a viewfinder image (from the reduced area) that is the same size as the normal viewfinder would give on a 645. Hence you will have a better view of the smaller area. For a camera that is only used for digital this is a no-brainer. Its a brilliant little option by HB for those of us that shoot digital and have no interest in what is happening outside the 1.1x crop.

If you put a 100mm on you cam instead of a 80mm you get a higher magnification of a smaller area. Is that also just playing with numbers?

Mark,
Are you drinking??


Svein Erik
« Last Edit: March 10, 2007, 04:13:04 AM by sundstei » Logged
Mark_Tucker
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« Reply #19 on: March 10, 2007, 08:21:36 AM »
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We, understand "Camera/back makers", would be happy to have such sensors so-called full-frame, but current technology with related costs give it the limits.

If you MF back makers are about "giving the customer options" then, respectfully, why don't you give a customer an option to buy a back with a larger that "smaller than 645" chip?

Somebody probably sat in a conference room, and said, "We can only squeeze three chips out of this wafer, so they need to be this size". But what if you only got two (larger) chips out of the same wafer, but charged the customer more for that?

You guys are at some point going to be trying to compete with Canon, (which is an unwinnable war), so why not invent a new ballgame that you just might win, and offer a TRUE medium format chip size? And I dont mean 6x6 either, because that will just get cropped. I mean something like 6x7 or 6x8.
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