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Author Topic: Hy6 prismfinder designet to fit sensor size?  (Read 20539 times)
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« Reply #40 on: March 10, 2007, 04:51:54 PM »
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i cant believe the hy6 cant rotate a back without it being removed! didnt the rollei have that rotate all worked out with the 6008/emotion?
camera progress seems to be one step forward, two steps back. there is 3 main  reasons i would cough up a lot more money for the hy6 (concidering my h1 gear will loose half its as used gear when the competition arrives)- camera that supports my choice of back, proper "non removing"rotating back, more reliablity and service. so far only the last request may be granted.

why buy a hy6?? arent products need points of difference to even be worth making?
it is just as easy to turn a h1 on its side with a rrs bracket (or gimmicy rotation head) as it is to pull a hy6 back off and reattach.
i cant see any real advantages. its crazy as i am hanging out for a better product than the h1. and i would pay a lot more than h1 gear if it really had features i really could use.

so far, i cannot understand why someone will buy a hy6/sinar over a 6008/sinar? sure the hy6 "looks" more modern, but it seems the 6008 the winning feature- the proper back rotation. i actually prefer the professional look of the 6008. if phase supported it(and rotate), i would definately buy it, even though its discontinued.

paul
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105894\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

i totally agree.....the Hy6 is nothing more then a 6008 with a really fancy grip (that does not come off and where probably most of the tech problems will be....).....so since the choices are either emotion or leaf with the Hy6 right now.....and i would choose the sinar anyway....the 6008 is the way to go...proven, works and the back rotates......that is simply a must.....

i guess that is what comes with making a camera body and trying to make sure to control the back that go on it....the 6008/emotion rotates because there is an adapter (just like on the RZ) that makes the rotating possible....get rid of the adapter and you get stationary contacts.....really sad.....
i guess that means that there will be no phase adapter either, because there is no room for any kind of adapter....even if they made a phase version at this point....the Hy6 just died for me....
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« Reply #41 on: March 10, 2007, 04:56:49 PM »
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so far, i cannot understand why someone will buy a hy6/sinar over a 6008/sinar? sure the hy6 "looks" more modern, but it seems the 6008 the winning feature- the proper back rotation. i actually prefer the professional look of the 6008. if phase supported it(and rotate), i would definately buy it, even though its discontinued.

The 6008AF is still a current model, and to some extent a camera is just there to hold the lenses and backs together, so you won't directly gain any image quality with a Hy6 over a 6008. However, you will get a smaller and lighter body, you will get better battery life, you will lose the sync cable, you get ISO syncing between camera and back, RGB sensor for white balance, and improved mirror action. You also get a slightly different control and display layout. That's all I know about so far.

As for rotating the back on a 6008, you can do that in about a second with a bit of practice. The L bracket helps with other cameras but you still lose the waist level finder. That's a big deal to me personally. YMMV.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2007, 04:58:48 PM by foto-z » Logged

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« Reply #42 on: March 10, 2007, 06:41:14 PM »
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My impression when seeing the Hy6 is that it is fairly back-agnostic, with some sort of removable spacer between back and camera, that might be used for a rotation device. I may be wrong on this, but I don't think the design was done to lock anyone out, on the contrary with th extra lens coverage and back surface and back fastening it looked very future-open. I'm sorry to say this as I'm a known cynic, but the Francke CEO came across as - honest and genuinely interested in his product. The sort of guy I'd like to buy a camera from. The Leaf guys came across as very business-oriented, and the Sinar guys came across as - confused.

Edmund

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i totally agree.....the Hy6 is nothing more then a 6008 with a really fancy grip (that does not come off and where probably most of the tech problems will be....).....so since the choices are either emotion or leaf with the Hy6 right now.....and i would choose the sinar anyway....the 6008 is the way to go...proven, works and the back rotates......that is simply a must.....

i guess that is what comes with making a camera body and trying to make sure to control the back that go on it....the 6008/emotion rotates because there is an adapter (just like on the RZ) that makes the rotating possible....get rid of the adapter and you get stationary contacts.....really sad.....
i guess that means that there will be no phase adapter either, because there is no room for any kind of adapter....even if they made a phase version at this point....the Hy6 just died for me....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105928\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
« Last Edit: March 10, 2007, 06:47:35 PM by eronald » Logged

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« Reply #43 on: March 10, 2007, 07:19:46 PM »
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and i still cant understand so much discussions and either positiv or negativ emotions about a camera which already does not exist,- and if it will be out it will not be a revolution in any aspect cause its based on a many years existing design.
before so many commented in a nearly hysteric way the hy/avi positiv, now the opposite......
why not wait till the camera will have met the first hands and than to discuss about ?

its often a nice board here , but this hy/avi discussions remind me in dpreviews canon forum.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2007, 07:20:08 PM by rehnniar » Logged

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« Reply #44 on: March 10, 2007, 07:27:56 PM »
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My impression when seeing the Hy6 is that it is fairly back-agnostic, with some sort of removable spacer between back and camera, that might be used for a rotation device. I may be wrong on this, but I don't think the design was done to lock anyone out, on the contrary with th extra lens coverage and back surface and back fastening it looked very future-open. I'm sorry to say this as I'm a known cynic, but the Francke CEO came across as - honest and genuinely interested in his product. The sort of guy I'd like to buy a camera from. The Leaf guys came across as very business-oriented, and the Sinar guys came across as - confused.

Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105946\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
edmund...that is how i pictured the camera as well and the fact that it is supposed to take the 645rollei mag made sense to me....that is why i keep thinking that someone will come up with an adapter....but if the whole adapter thing isn't planned in i don't see how a regular phase back would not be too far back (focus) with some kind of adapter, especially one that can rotate....the phase adapter i have for the RZ looks almost like 5mm to me....the RZ magazines have the rotating mechanism built in, so the film plane sits back a bit....
i am really surprised.....i guess it will be like the 645 mag on the 6008, it sits in an adapter, take it off rotate, put it back on....but with the emotion rotating on the 6008, there is no reason to take a step back in the wrong direction...other then to lock people out.....which really is 2 steps back....
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« Reply #45 on: March 10, 2007, 09:44:58 PM »
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The 6008AF is still a current model, and to some extent a camera is just there to hold the lenses and backs together, so you won't directly gain any image quality with a Hy6 over a 6008. However, you will get a smaller and lighter body, you will get better battery life, you will lose the sync cable, you get ISO syncing between camera and back, RGB sensor for white balance, and improved mirror action. You also get a slightly different control and display layout. That's all I know about so far.

As for rotating the back on a 6008, you can do that in about a second with a bit of practice. The L bracket helps with other cameras but you still lose the waist level finder. That's a big deal to me personally. YMMV.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105929\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

i shoot a lot from ground level, and most shots are horizontal luckly so a waist finder works with an h1. have you ever tried to shoot from the ground looking through a prism all day, its neck breaking material. i also seem to get locations to shoot that im either backed up to a wall, against some unmovable object. so i got really interested in the hy6 and rollei, especially with all the various types of finders rollei has made in the past. these are the real things that make my work easier.
the rotating back is another practical feature- a lot of shots i take are going to be used as DPS and a4 portrait. this is one of the many features that made the rb/rz great cameras in their day.
i cant see why people dont want these features again? a removable rotating back is an expensive accident waiting to happen.

the hy6 weight isnt really a big selling point for me. it isnt a point and shoot or holiday camera, it should be professional work horse. all cameras seem light compared to the rz/rb i lugged around for most of career. i dont fly a lot, i would probably think differently if i did.

paul
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« Reply #46 on: March 10, 2007, 10:15:53 PM »
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and i still cant understand so much discussions and either positiv or negativ emotions about a camera which already does not exist,- and if it will be out it will not be a revolution in any aspect cause its based on a many years existing design.
before so many commented in a nearly hysteric way the hy/avi positiv, now the opposite......
why not wait till the camera will have met the first hands and than to discuss about ?

its often a nice board here , but this hy/avi discussions remind me in dpreviews canon forum.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Rainer, agreed. I'd prefer to see the emotional/flame content of these discussions taken down a stop or two. Speaking for myself, I'm interested in simply gathering information that I can add to my mix of research, dealer tests and personal experience in order to make an informed decision...

I can understand why folks feel angry about a business which used to produce unrivalled quality and which now charges much more for products with lower perceived quality, fewer options, all coming at a time of major changes in the industry and marketplace. Scary, anger inducing stuff. I'd just like to see some of that vented off pre-post. Manufacturers should hear this stuff, for sure. And I think it's fine to say "man this pisses me off" without the smoldering flames directed at fellow forum members.

I'm resigned to the fact that digital is buggy and that firmware will need (timely, accurate) updates (that will then fix the problem). Hardware shouldn't have these problems out of the box, and quality control should be top notch. Bad hardware makes me angry too, especially when I've paid handsomely for the privelege of using it. And this anger should be heard publically. It's information as well. I just wish that we could separate the anger part of the post from the information part a bit more. I guess what I'm trying to say is that really, we're all on the same side here as consumers. Let's not beat each other up for using product X nor irrationally defend bad business practices where they exist.

That being said, here's a vintage 2006 3D rendering (some of you have seen this already of course) of the back change on the Sinar Hy6. Not incredibly detailed, may or may not be current, may not provide any useful information, may send some into a sudden random apoplectic rage.

[a href=\"http://www.zoomatra.de/2006/sinar/vrml/vrml.html]http://www.zoomatra.de/2006/sinar/vrml/vrml.html[/url]

And, in order to save time, the knee-jerk responses can include:

1. That was clearly designed by blind misanthropes that have never touched a camera
2. That tells me nothing without seeing it for real, you have wasted precious minutes of my life and I want them back
3. Product X/Y is better/worse in my experience/dreams/pants

(liklihood of negative response to this post, 95%)
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« Reply #47 on: March 11, 2007, 12:28:26 AM »
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Rainer, agreed. I'd prefer to see the emotional/flame content of these discussions taken down a stop or two. Speaking for myself, I'm interested in simply gathering information that I can add to my mix of research, dealer tests and personal experience in order to make an informed decision...

I can understand why folks feel angry about a business which used to produce unrivalled quality and which now charges much more for products with lower perceived quality, fewer options, all coming at a time of major changes in the industry and marketplace. Scary, anger inducing stuff. I'd just like to see some of that vented off pre-post. Manufacturers should hear this stuff, for sure. And I think it's fine to say "man this pisses me off" without the smoldering flames directed at fellow forum members.

I'm resigned to the fact that digital is buggy and that firmware will need (timely, accurate) updates (that will then fix the problem). Hardware shouldn't have these problems out of the box, and quality control should be top notch. Bad hardware makes me angry too, especially when I've paid handsomely for the privelege of using it. And this anger should be heard publically. It's information as well. I just wish that we could separate the anger part of the post from the information part a bit more. I guess what I'm trying to say is that really, we're all on the same side here as consumers. Let's not beat each other up for using product X nor irrationally defend bad business practices where they exist.

That being said, here's a vintage 2006 3D rendering (some of you have seen this already of course) of the back change on the Sinar Hy6. Not incredibly detailed, may or may not be current, may not provide any useful information, may send some into a sudden random apoplectic rage.

http://www.zoomatra.de/2006/sinar/vrml/vrml.html

And, in order to save time, the knee-jerk responses can include:

1. That was clearly designed by blind misanthropes that have never touched a camera
2. That tells me nothing without seeing it for real, you have wasted precious minutes of my life and I want them back
3. Product X/Y is better/worse in my experience/dreams/pants

(liklihood of negative response to this post, 95%)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105976\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

sorry, im guilty of that. its just hard to not to get emotive when ive invested more in one camera than probably every other camera ive owned put together.
if i could easily put my p25 onto multiple cameras, i could just choose the camera that suited the job. but instead im hoping the Hy6 would come and save me , and give another better option than the h1  

paul
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Rune Werner Molnes
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« Reply #48 on: March 11, 2007, 06:21:13 AM »
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Hi,

I recently had the opportunity to test a beta- version of the Sinar Hy6 here in Norway, and it felt just right in my hands. All important functions/buttons can be thumb- operated, and the ergonomics, size and weight is also a big plus with this camera.

I have been using mainly 35mm format and lately a Canon 1Ds MkII, and have very little or no previous experience with MF. So I approached the various MF alternatives with few preconceptions. Tried the H3D but did not like it much for various reasons; some of them being size, weight distribution/balance, ergonomics and last but  not least operation/interface which I felt was very counter- intuitive.

A representative from Sinar was there promising me a new stellar 35mm ("optimized for digital")  for the Hy6/AFi come August 2007.

After testing the H3D-39 against an Leaf Aptus 75/Mamiya combo, I ended up ordering my Leaf AFi 75 - camera. I've been promised delivery come summer 2007, and have been offered the opportunity to use a Leaf Aptus 75 + Mamiya 645 AFD II until the AFi is ready. I'll probably wait with the AFi until the 35mm is available, as I shoot a lot of my landscapes at wide angle.

Some keep referring to the "mythical Hy6", but it's by all means a real camera just around the corner: http://www.leaf-photography.com

Rune Werner Molnes
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« Reply #49 on: March 11, 2007, 06:47:13 AM »
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Hi,

I recently had the opportunity to test a beta- version of the Sinar Hy6 here in Norway, and it felt just right in my hands. All important functions/buttons can be thumb- operated, and the ergonomics, size and weight is also a big plus with this camera.

[clip]

After testing the H3D-39 against an Leaf Aptus 75/Mamiya combo, I ended up ordering my Leaf AFi 75 - camera. I've been promised delivery come summer 2007, and have been offered the opportunity to use a Leaf Aptus 75 + Mamiya 645 AFD II until the AFi is ready. I'll probably wait with the AFi until the 35mm is available, as I shoot a lot of my landscapes at wide angle.

[clip]

Rune Werner Molnes
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=106012\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Rune, can you comment on your comparison of the Sinar vs Leaf... what made you go with Leaf in this case, etc.?
« Last Edit: March 11, 2007, 06:47:52 AM by Ethan Schoonover » Logged

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« Reply #50 on: March 11, 2007, 08:21:13 AM »
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Hi,

I recently had the opportunity to test a beta- version of the Sinar Hy6 here in Norway,
Rune Werner Molnes
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=106012\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


 How's the focus ? Did you have the waist-level of the eye-level ?

E.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2007, 08:21:54 AM by eronald » Logged

Edmund Ronald, Ph.D. 
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« Reply #51 on: March 11, 2007, 09:23:03 AM »
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Yaya & Thierry should be able to tell us a bit more, no?
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« Reply #52 on: March 11, 2007, 09:24:40 AM »
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I did not test any Sinar backs, only the Leaf Aptus 75/Mamiya vs. H3D-39 (And the P45 on a H2).

The Leaf back was my reason for choosing the Leaf AFi and not the Hy6, for all I know the Sinar alternative might be just as good as the Leaf.

Manual focusing on the beta- Hy6 was very good, in the sense that you very easily could  confirm precisely what was in focus. I used the waist-level finder with the very useful flip-up magnifier. The 90° prism viewfinder will be available when the camera ships to market.  For precise manual focusing I preferred the Hy6 over the H3D.

None of the new Schneider-Kreuznach AFD lenses were available at their stand, but they claimed (of course) that the AF on the Hy6/AFi will be much faster and more precise than on the H3D.


- Rune
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« Reply #53 on: March 11, 2007, 12:00:34 PM »
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Thierry, is there some literature on this sensor/announcement? when do you think it will happen if it does? I read about 60mp but with a 111 MP 4x4" size (10,2x10,2 cm!). is just Great. Thank you.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

If it matters to you, I guess that [a href=\"http://www.dalsa.com/news/news.asp?itemID=252]Dalsa[/url] didn't make a Bayer pattern mask
for this sensor since it's intended for use in an observatory.  People at
the observatory can likely take multiple photos with different filters if
they want color.  Fairchild Imaging has been manufacturing an 80+ MP
8cm x 8cm monochrome chip since before Dalsa made the 111 MP one.
Their "ultra high resolution, electro-optical framing camera for reconnaissance
and other applications" description suggests to me that as with the sensor
for the Naval observatory, it takes a military/CIA grade budget to purchase
silicon sensors this large.  If you download Fairchild's PDF, I found it interesting
to read about the acceptable numbers of clusters of bad pixels in their different
quality grades.  - John
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« Reply #54 on: March 11, 2007, 12:37:44 PM »
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If it matters to you, I guess that Dalsa didn't make a Bayer pattern mask
for this sensor since it's intended for use in an observatory.  People at
the observatory can likely take multiple photos with different filters if
they want color.  Fairchild Imaging has been manufacturing an 80+ MP
8cm x 8cm monochrome chip since before Dalsa made the 111 MP one.
Their "ultra high resolution, electro-optical framing camera for reconnaissance
and other applications" description suggests to me that as with the sensor
for the Naval observatory, it takes a military/CIA grade budget to purchase
silicon sensors this large.  If you download Fairchild's PDF, I found it interesting
to read about the acceptable numbers of clusters of bad pixels in their different
quality grades.  - John
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=106055\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]



John, very interesting, I appreciate the info, Thank you.
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josayeruk
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« Reply #55 on: March 11, 2007, 05:11:57 PM »
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i know that neither the H39 nor the H31 has anything to do with FF...seems like hass does not....
about the VF...of course i understand what you are saying....i understand that the VF on the H39 magnifies the image slightly...i have seen it, i have looked trough it....what i am saying is that THAT image is still smaller then what i am seeing through my loupe on the RZ...
in my opinion advertising something as a wonderful and great achievement (as the magnified VF) which pretty much exists with every MF system in one form or another, is hype to me.....my personal opinion....some people will go into a store and think that the H is the only camera out there providing something everybody else has.....of course you could say the others are to blame for that....i have a different opinion about that.....
i am not saying that making a prism for each back and charging (2000$?) for it isn't very smart business move....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105926\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thats not quite right.

The HCD28mm lens is designed for the 22 / 39 MP sensor so 28mm is actually a 28mm lens.  Important if you need really wide angle lenses and don't want to suffer from crippling lens conversion factors...

Which some might argue are present on the RZ.    

Also a little known fact is that he metering system in the new finder is more accurate and also faster to meter.

Jo S.x
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« Reply #56 on: March 11, 2007, 05:20:34 PM »
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Thats not quite right.

The HCD28mm lens is designed for the 22 / 39 MP sensor so 28mm is actually a 28mm lens.  Important if you need really wide angle lenses and don't want to suffer from crippling lens conversion factors...

Which some might argue are present on the RZ.   

Also a little known fact is that he metering system in the new finder is more accurate and also faster to meter.

Jo S.x
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=106101\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Jo,
I believe you're wrong!
The 28 is a 28 ,however there still is the crop factor of the sensor.
In real terms the lens is a 30.8 mm lens,which is still pretty good!
Cheers,
Willem.
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josayeruk
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« Reply #57 on: March 11, 2007, 05:38:57 PM »
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Jo,
I believe you're wrong!
The 28 is a 28 ,however there still is the crop factor of the sensor.
In real terms the lens is a 30.8 mm lens,which is still pretty good!
Cheers,
Willem.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=106102\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I beleive I am right...  

There is only a crop factor on the 31MP sensor, otherwise the image circle of the HCD28mm is 'fitted' to the 22 and 39 sensor.

Jo S.x
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josayeruk
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« Reply #58 on: March 11, 2007, 05:42:22 PM »
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I beleive I am right...   

There is only a crop factor on the 31MP sensor, otherwise the image circle of the HCD28mm is 'fitted' to the 22 and 39 sensor.

Jo S.x
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

You can look here under compatibility...

[a href=\"http://www.hasselblad.com/media/61395063-aa6b-4c3d-b212-d9c68f90e0f8-HCD28_UK.pdf]http://www.hasselblad.com/media/61395063-a...f8-HCD28_UK.pdf[/url]
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« Reply #59 on: March 11, 2007, 05:44:25 PM »
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I beleive I am right...   

There is only a crop factor on the 31MP sensor, otherwise the image circle of the HCD28mm is 'fitted' to the 22 and 39 sensor.

Jo S.x
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=106106\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Jo ,you're wrong!
The H3 22 and 39 sensors are not full frame,we all know that!
Like I said before,a 30.8mm lens is still very wide!  
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Willem Rethmeier
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