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Author Topic: P21 P25 P30 plus series  (Read 6386 times)
yodelyo
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« on: March 18, 2007, 11:16:33 AM »
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hello
i have tried to search this forum for the following questions but thought someone might be able to explain it better in one spot: could someone break down the theory of pricing and megapixel amounts between these three phase backs, P21, P25, P30 plus series it seems that the P30 is cheaper than the P25 but has less megpxls, the P30 is 1.3 crop factor but has higher ISO, why does the P21 only start at Iso 100 and not 50? I would prefer to buy the P25 between all the three backs but I think it is the most $$$, can anyone really list the prices of each of these backs for me, without the 3 year added waranty?

I shoot fashion and lifestyle with a canon 1Ds Mk2 but want to get a DB for my contax 645 system.
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Mort54
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« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2007, 12:00:26 PM »
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hello
i have tried to search this forum for the following questions but thought someone might be able to explain it better in one spot: could someone break down the theory of pricing and megapixel amounts between these three phase backs, P21, P25, P30 plus series it seems that the P30 is cheaper than the P25 but has less megpxls, the P30 is 1.3 crop factor but has higher ISO, why does the P21 only start at Iso 100 and not 50? I would prefer to buy the P25 between all the three backs but I think it is the most $$$, can anyone really list the prices of each of these backs for me, without the 3 year added waranty?

I shoot fashion and lifestyle with a canon 1Ds Mk2 but want to get a DB for my contax 645 system.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=107287\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

As far as cost goes, it mostly boils down to sensor size. The bigger the sensor, the costlier it is to produce, and the more it costs to buy. The P25 is roughly 49mm x 37mm in size. The P30 and P21 are roughly 44mm x 33mm in size. Thats why the P25 is the most expensive of the bunch. The number of pixels on the chip can effect yield, but that's more of a second order effect on cost. MP is almost certainly a factor in marketing, so a company feels higher MP are more desired, and therefore people will be willing to pay more for them. Chip size trumps marketing, but for the same sized sensors, higher MP will cost more, somewhat because of yield, but mostly, I suspect, because of marketing.

Retail pricing (in USD) for the Phase backs is as follows (without extended warranty):

P21=$11,990; P25= $20,990; P30=$16,990; P45=$26,990

For the plus versions, add $3K.

For the extended warranty, add another $3K.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2007, 12:06:00 PM by Mort54 » Logged

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eronald
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« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2007, 01:31:44 PM »
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Short, informative (*Applauds*).

Edmund
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« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2007, 02:51:08 PM »
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hello
i have tried to search this forum for the following questions but thought someone might be able to explain it better in one spot: could someone break down the theory of pricing and megapixel amounts between these three phase backs, P21, P25, P30 plus series it seems that the P30 is cheaper than the P25 but has less megpxls, the P30 is 1.3 crop factor but has higher ISO, why does the P21 only start at Iso 100 and not 50? I would prefer to buy the P25 between all the three backs but I think it is the most $$$, can anyone really list the prices of each of these backs for me, without the 3 year added waranty?

I shoot fashion and lifestyle with a canon 1Ds Mk2 but want to get a DB for my contax 645 system.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=107287\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

why would you prefer the P25 out of these 3? for fashion and lifestyle is seems to be the least likely choice? it is the slowest and has the lowest iso, it is also the noisiest of the 3. the advantage of the bigger sensor won't be of much use for you since i doubt you will use extreme WA a lot....and it is the most expensive....i think you were concerned about moire (in some other post) and the P25 has the same amount of moire as the P20 (which is the same chip, just smaller)....the P30 has considerably less moire.....
if you shot fineart and landscape...look at the P25, for fashion and lifestyle it is not the best choice.....
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paul_jones
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« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2007, 03:24:24 PM »
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why would you prefer the P25 out of these 3? for fashion and lifestyle is seems to be the least likely choice? it is the slowest and has the lowest iso, it is also the noisiest of the 3. the advantage of the bigger sensor won't be of much use for you since i doubt you will use extreme WA a lot....and it is the most expensive....i think you were concerned about moire (in some other post) and the P25 has the same amount of moire as the P20 (which is the same chip, just smaller)....the P30 has considerably less moire.....
if you shot fineart and landscape...look at the P25, for fashion and lifestyle it is not the best choice.....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=107331\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

when i was going through my research on backs for my contax (before i bought a h1) i walked around with the p25 crop and the p30 crop in the contax for a while.
i just couldnt live with the p30 crop in the contax. the contax has a pretty small finder even with a film crop, smaller again with the p25. p30 was just too small for me.
i dont think this matters if you shoot head and shoulder shots, but if you shoot wide shots with small details (that you need to see), it will bug you. the h1 finder is so large, it doesnt matter if you crop it a bit.
but the p25 is limiting with its iso, and i have seen a lot of p30 files and they are really nice.
if i had a contax, i would think hard before choosing a p30, but if i could choose another back for my h1, then the p30 would be highest on my list.

paul
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« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2007, 04:22:55 PM »
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when i was going through my research on backs for my contax (before i bought a h1) i walked around with the p25 crop and the p30 crop in the contax for a while.
i just couldnt live with the p30 crop in the contax. the contax has a pretty small finder even with a film crop, smaller again with the p25. p30 was just too small for me.
i dont think this matters if you shoot head and shoulder shots, but if you shoot wide shots with small details (that you need to see), it will bug you. the h1 finder is so large, it doesnt matter if you crop it a bit.
but the p25 is limiting with its iso, and i have seen a lot of p30 files and they are really nice.
if i had a contax, i would think hard before choosing a p30, but if i could choose another back for my h1, then the p30 would be highest on my list.

paul
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=107340\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

can't say anything about that...i don't have enough experience with the contax...with the mamiya it is no problem....either way the finder is much bigger than with the canon...i guess if you are used to shooting film with the contax and all of a sudden you are cropped, it would be annoying.....but i can't understand why it would make such a big difference on the contax? i have seen it on the H1 and on the mamiya and on both cameras after switching back and forth a couple of times, i had to look at the actual back to know which one is which...
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paul_jones
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« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2007, 09:58:29 PM »
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can't say anything about that...i don't have enough experience with the contax...with the mamiya it is no problem....either way the finder is much bigger than with the canon...i guess if you are used to shooting film with the contax and all of a sudden you are cropped, it would be annoying.....but i can't understand why it would make such a big difference on the contax? i have seen it on the H1 and on the mamiya and on both cameras after switching back and forth a couple of times, i had to look at the actual back to know which one is which...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=107346\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

i spent a bit of time putting one camera to my eye then another. i suppose you would forget about the crop when you are use to seeing it.


paul
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yodelyo
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« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2007, 08:54:06 PM »
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why would you prefer the P25 out of these 3? for fashion and lifestyle is seems to be the least likely choice? it is the slowest and has the lowest iso, it is also the noisiest of the 3. the advantage of the bigger sensor won't be of much use for you since i doubt you will use extreme WA a lot....and it is the most expensive....i think you were concerned about moire (in some other post) and the P25 has the same amount of moire as the P20 (which is the same chip, just smaller)....the P30 has considerably less moire.....
if you shot fineart and landscape...look at the P25, for fashion and lifestyle it is not the best choice.....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=107331\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I guess I prefer the P25 because of the full frame and the fact that I thought I didnt need so many megapixels, just for managing all those megabytes during a shoot and for the archive. but now people are saying that the more megapixels the least likely moire issues will arrise, so the P30 is starting to look like the better choice. what i really need is the 50 asa for flash sync issues, I will already be using a 2 stop ND but want as shallow focus as possible when using strobe(contax sync at 1/125) and I think the P25 offers that(why would P30 and P21 not have 50asa?)
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Morgan_Moore
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« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2007, 12:47:38 AM »
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I guess I prefer the P25 because of the full frame and the fact that I thought I didnt need so many megapixels, just for managing all those megabytes during a shoot and for the archive. but now people are saying that the more megapixels the least likely moire issues will arrise, so the P30 is starting to look like the better choice. what i really need is the 50 asa for flash sync issues, I will already be using a 2 stop ND but want as shallow focus as possible when using strobe(contax sync at 1/125) and I think the P25 offers that(why would P30 and P21 not have 50asa?)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=107796\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Three comments if you like shallow focus

====

The larger chipped p25 will be focused closer for a specific framing on a specific lense - so will have shallower focus

====

The Sinar22 goes down to 25 ISO which could help you on the flash front

====

Surely the moiree on a p30 just occurs at a different smaller size than a p25 not less - the point where the weave is the same frequency as the pixel pitch

So while the p25 may have problems with a patterned shirt at a half length portrait the P30 could have it with a full lenght of the same shirt

A smaller % of the image though and probably less vissible at print size
and the resolutions and the LPI of the lenses will be helping act as a mild AA filter

====

PS www.teamworkphoto.com (UK) have/had a used p25 for 7k

SMM
« Last Edit: March 21, 2007, 01:01:19 AM by Morgan_Moore » Logged

Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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paul_jones
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« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2007, 02:17:25 AM »
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Three comments if you like shallow focus

====

The larger chipped p25 will be focused closer for a specific framing on a specific lense - so will have shallower focus

====

The Sinar22 goes down to 25 ISO which could help you on the flash front

====

Surely the moiree on a p30 just occurs at a different smaller size than a p25 not less - the point where the weave is the same frequency as the pixel pitch

So while the p25 may have problems with a patterned shirt at a half length portrait the P30 could have it with a full lenght of the same shirt

A smaller % of the image though and probably less vissible at print size
and the resolutions and the LPI of the lenses will be helping act as a mild AA filter

====

PS www.teamworkphoto.com (UK) have/had a used p25 for 7k

SMM
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=107814\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

i think the "micro lenses" of the p30 act as a kind anti aliasing filter. the p30 has a softer image than the p45 (all things equal). the p25 is sharp, there isnt any sort of filter, so more morie.

paul
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Morgan_Moore
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« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2007, 03:02:19 AM »
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i think the "micro lenses" of the p30 act as a kind anti aliasing filter. the p30 has a softer image than the p45 (all things equal). the p25 is sharp, there isnt any sort of filter, so more morie.

paul
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=107817\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Fair point
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Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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Mark_Tucker
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« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2007, 09:07:37 AM »
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so the P30 is starting to look like the better choice. what i really need is the 50 asa for flash sync issues, I will already be using a 2 stop ND but want as shallow focus as possible when using strobe(contax sync at 1/125) and I think the P25 offers that(why would P30 and P21 not have 50asa?)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=107796\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

That is a valid point. I shot a job recently, outside, using ProFoto as main, but balancing to full sunlight, and yes, with the Contax, it can get tough. I used a one stop ND over the lens. I wanted to shoot at 5.6 or 4. I was right on the edge. I needed the recycle of the P30; the P45 was too slow. P45 goes down to 50 ASA; 100 with P30.

Yet, given all that, the P30 is the Shining Star in their lineup right now. Unless you're Gursky, making giant prints, the P30 is the one to look at. The P25 is old technology; also has battery handling issues, different from P45 and P30.

Stick with P30; you won't regret it. Talk to Dave Gallagher at Capture Integration. Great support. He knows the deal.
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pss
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« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2007, 12:26:15 PM »
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That is a valid point. I shot a job recently, outside, using ProFoto as main, but balancing to full sunlight, and yes, with the Contax, it can get tough. I used a one stop ND over the lens. I wanted to shoot at 5.6 or 4. I was right on the edge. I needed the recycle of the P30; the P45 was too slow. P45 goes down to 50 ASA; 100 with P30.

Yet, given all that, the P30 is the Shining Star in their lineup right now. Unless you're Gursky, making giant prints, the P30 is the one to look at. The P25 is old technology; also has battery handling issues, different from P45 and P30.

Stick with P30; you won't regret it. Talk to Dave Gallagher at Capture Integration. Great support. He knows the deal.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=107855\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

i can also only recommend the P30...i, too would have liked the 50asa...that was another reason i almost went with the emotion....goes to 25asa....combined with the 1/1000 sync of the rollei......no problems outside at all....
the P25 has a little more shallow depth of field because of the extra size...i guess it is a nice problem to have....having to choose between P30 and P25.....
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yodelyo
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« Reply #13 on: March 21, 2007, 06:33:30 PM »
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i can also only recommend the P30...i, too would have liked the 50asa...that was another reason i almost went with the emotion....goes to 25asa....combined with the 1/1000 sync of the rollei......no problems outside at all....
the P25 has a little more shallow depth of field because of the extra size...i guess it is a nice problem to have....having to choose between P30 and P25.....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=107898\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Hmm, does the emotion22 work w/ a contax? does anyone know the "real" price?
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Morgan_Moore
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« Reply #14 on: March 22, 2007, 01:44:06 AM »
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Hmm, does the emotion22 work w/ a contax? does anyone know the "real" price?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=107972\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Emotion have plates at the back that you can change so you can change systems contax is listed

The 22 does really (current software) top out at 200 (or even 100 dependant on taste)

(http://www.sinar.ch/site/index__gast-e-1780-50-1901.html)

Back makers seem to have forgotten that lack of low ISO can be as restricting as lack of high ISO

It is just not in thier lab designing heads that some might like a bit of camera shake at a wide open aperture on a sunny day

For me there are also issues of minimum power of flashes an the aperture they give at higher ISOs

SMM
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Ron Steinberg
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« Reply #15 on: March 23, 2007, 10:51:52 AM »
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That is a valid point. I shot a job recently, outside, using ProFoto as main, but balancing to full sunlight, and yes, with the Contax, it can get tough. I used a one stop ND over the lens. I wanted to shoot at 5.6 or 4. I was right on the edge. I needed the recycle of the P30; the P45 was too slow. P45 goes down to 50 ASA; 100 with P30.

Yet, given all that, the P30 is the Shining Star in their lineup right now. Unless you're Gursky, making giant prints, the P30 is the one to look at. The P25 is old technology; also has battery handling issues, different from P45 and P30.

Stick with P30; you won't regret it. Talk to Dave Gallagher at Capture Integration. Great support. He knows the deal.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=107855\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Mark,

Can you please elaborate on the battery handling issues you have experienced with a P25?

Cheers,
Ron
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Dave Gallagher
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« Reply #16 on: March 23, 2007, 09:30:25 PM »
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Please feel free to e-mail me with any phase questions:

Pricing on Phase One Backs

Data Sheet Download

dave@captureintegration.com
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