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Author Topic: Rude behavior  (Read 17631 times)
David White
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« on: March 19, 2007, 09:17:24 PM »
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Last week while photographing in Death Valley at Zabriskie Point, I witnessed some of the most irresponsible, inconsiderate and rude behavior by a workshop leader that I have ever seen.  The individual set his group up in a line on top of a rock formation right in the middle of a scene that several people at the top, in the viewing area, were trying to capture.  A couple of us moved to another location and had to recompose a different image than what we were going to shoot.

The sad thing is that a group of photographers was taught that it is OK to set up wherever you want without consideration for other photographers in the area.

To the person that was leading the workshop I hope that a hairy booger takes up residence on your sensor until you learn to improve your behavior.

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David White
Eric Myrvaagnes
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« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2007, 10:38:45 PM »
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David,

Next time go in late January. When I was there the weather was beautiiful (the Zabriskie sunrises, too), and it was too early in the season for workshops. There were at most a dozen photographers there, and they all stayed out of everybody else's way.

Maybe you could send your picture to that workshop leader and ask him to clone out all of his group for you.

I'm sorry you had a bad experience there. The worst thing I encountered was the zillions of footprints in the dunes at Stovepipe Wells. There were no serious winds to clear them away the week I was there, but I got some good shots anyway.
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larryg
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« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2007, 08:11:14 AM »
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Last week while photographing in Death Valley at Zabriskie Point, I witnessed some of the most irresponsible, inconsiderate and rude behavior by a workshop leader that I have ever seen. The individual set his group up in a line on top of a rock formation right in the middle of a scene that several people at the top, in the viewing area, were trying to capture. A couple of us moved to another location and had to recompose a different image than what we were going to shoot.

The sad thing is that a group of photographers was taught that it is OK to set up wherever you want without consideration for other photographers in the area.

To the person that was leading the workshop I hope that a hairy booger takes up residence on your sensor until you learn to improve your behavior.

[attachment=2121:attachment]
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=107603\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I was there last week and my partner and myself went to the right of the viewing area and hiked up to the top of the hill.  Better view of the scene and no one else there. (It was challenging in the dark though). We were not the first ones up there as there is a well worn path

This is also true at Oxbow at the tetons.  I went there with a workshop a couple of years ago.  Got to the spot well before sunrise (still dark) and there were already 38 tripods set up claiming a spot.   I guess you need to camp out over night or find a better spot?
« Last Edit: March 20, 2007, 08:12:58 AM by larryg » Logged
jeffball
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« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2007, 08:28:48 AM »
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Hello David,
I understand your frustration.  Have you been to Upper Antelope?  What a zoo that has become.  For me, I have chosen to totally avoid the "cliche" locations now.  Being in those environments is simply not artistically stimulating at all to me.  My last visit to Upper Antelope literally had a dozen photographers in a 10 foot square area.  It was insane to me and totally unproductive.  Perhaps that is one major reason "why" Michael continues to go to Anarctica.  I know it is hard to resist these familiar locations and when we have little time and resources it is the most efficient way to find a satisfying photograph.  But for me, I have found that taking time to explore lesser known locations, ones that really connect with me, to be a much more gratifying experience.  And no other photographers in the scene with me!  Best wishes on your photography.
Jeff
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russell a
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« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2007, 09:30:31 AM »
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I echo jeffball's advice.  Why go where you will find the worn divots from the tripods of a thousand photographers who have preceeded you?  The World Quota for these shots were exceeded years ago.  Find your own venue and perhaps discover photography can be more than reproducing (usually inferior) calendar shots.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2007, 09:31:11 AM by russell a » Logged
David White
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« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2007, 09:52:32 AM »
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I think that everyone is missing my point.  It wasn't the location or time of year.  I've been to many crowded locations, including Zabriskie, and have never seen the lack of consideration displayed by the person that was leading the workshop.  I would expect that someone billing themselves as a professional and teaching others would know better.
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David White
Robert Roaldi
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« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2007, 10:25:30 AM »
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Rudeness is becoming a signature of our (north american) culture and maybe others too, for all I know. There have been a few articles about it in the press lately (Macleans magazine a few months back). I bet if you google "rude" you'll get dozens of links to sociological publications. (I am referring to the rudeness we express towards strangers; the absence of public manners.)

In the case you mentioned, it may be simply group behaviour. In larger numbers, humans behave badly all too easily. Ask any waiter.

It may come from a culture of anonymity, a by-product of living in areas of large population like cities. The less chance there is of running into someone again, the less reason there is to be courteous. What's to be gained? Over time, more and more people behave this way until you reach a critical mass at which point there is no point being nice to anyone anymore. It's almost a statistical argument in the sense that as there are fewer nicer people around, there is less reason to be nice.

We live in a selfish culture I think. People figure that because they paid top dollar to be somewhere, and may not get there again, they just stand their ground and to hell with others. People like that often sleep in late though and then spend a long time giving the breakfast servers a hard time, so if you're quick you can be out and back before they show up to the site.  
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framah
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« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2007, 03:17:12 PM »
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Part of the reason I try (please notice the word "try") to be nice to all I meet on my trips is the hope  that it will be contagious and just maybe they will be nice to the next person they meet.

Plus, I'm playing in their yard.  


...and dog gone it!!.. it just FEELS good!!!
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jecxz
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« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2007, 07:39:54 PM »
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David,

I got your point--I have seen this rude behavior before too. Generally I don't shoot where there are people or other photographers. Perhaps this rude fellow will read this, realize it was his group and know better next time.
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andythom68
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« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2007, 05:15:29 AM »
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Hi David,

It is also possible that the workshop leader knew the area very well and knew that the chosen location was "better" than the viewing area to avoid simply taking the "cliche" shot. I have never been to that part of the world so I can't comment on the pros-and-cons of one spot over another. Is there anything in writing at the viewing area that prohibits people from going to another area? It IS possible (and it is a slim possibility) the leader did not see you or the other people. Your location looks like it was in deep shadow.

How long was the group there - 5, 10, 30 minutes? If they were there for just a few minutes then I would say "fair enough". If the leader knew you were there and stayed for more than 30 minutes then I would consider that a "no no".

Did you or anyone else call out to the group to get their attention to let them know there was someone behind them? Did you speak to the workshop leader afterwards?

Did they respond to your calls? If you got a response did they say they would move along in a few minutes or did they basically tell you "tough luck"?

What one person thinks of as rude is just someone else trying to get a better shot.

Personally speaking, I have had to change my "chosen" position to re-compose because  something in the scene gets in the way - whether it is a person, animal or the light not hitting a rock correctly - very often the change of location (1m or 500m) can result in a better shot (and sometimes not). This is just life.

If I would have found myself in your position I would have gone to the workshop location and maybe be pleasantly surprised to find a great shot before me. I could also have pointed-out to the leader that there were other people behind them and not to stay too long there.

I understand your feeling of frustration, but don't let it get to you. Go back another day enjoy the scenery and take a great photograph. Don't mourn the photos we never take.

Maybe if you post the exact date you went there the workshop leader may (if he reads LL) contact you and give their side of the story....
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RockySharwell
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« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2007, 07:58:32 AM »
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David,

Did you say anything to the tour leader?
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boku
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« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2007, 08:09:29 AM »
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I see all sides of this, but I wonder...

- If the workshop leader cannot take his people to the preferred location on the bluff.
- If everyone else shoots from the road because they are not aware of the advanced vantage point.
- If there is never an opportunity to shoot from the secret preferred location because the standard vantage point is always populated and to violate the view is considered rude.

- Then, having knowledge of the preferred spot whilst desiring to be courteous means you never shoot from the preferred spot.
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Bob Kulon

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larryg
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« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2007, 08:56:19 AM »
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I see all sides of this, but I wonder...

- If the workshop leader cannot take his people to the preferred location on the bluff.
- If everyone else shoots from the road because they are not aware of the advanced vantage point.
- If there is never an opportunity to shoot from the secret preferred location because the standard vantage point is always populated and to violate the view is considered rude.

- Then, having knowledge of the preferred spot whilst desiring to be courteous means you never shoot from the preferred spot.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=107842\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

And there is the rub,    I still think common courtesy or common sense goes a long way.  I was in Cuba a few years ago with a workshop.  We were in Vinales Valley
(the instructor instructed everyone beforehand about staying out of other photographers shots etc.)  Down in the valley (as the sun was setting) was a fabulous shot.  About the time the light was perfect a member of our group with white pants and red shirt was walking down the trail and was in all our shots. (this was before digital cameras)  I just came to the conclusion that he was either brain dead or an ofe (jerk).

It is tempting to get there first and claim your spot but it is also nice to surrender the spot or at least offer to share it when the time presents itself.

I am also coming to the conclusion, as many have already expressed, that maybe I should spend less time chasing after the Iconic shots that a bazillion have copied already and spend more time getting something that is truly my shot?
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Kirk Gittings
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« Reply #13 on: March 21, 2007, 09:18:31 AM »
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While I abhor that kind of rudeness, no one owns a point of view.

IMO workshops (some of which I teach) have engendered another kind of rudeness, that is it alright for multiple people to basically repeat the same shot like some herd of voracious lemmings. How many people have I seen with that same shot of the cougar jumping from rock to rock at some wildlife place? I primarily use view cameras. Worse to me is the person who slams on his brakes, jumps out of his car, runs up and set up his DSLR camera right next to you and tries to "see" what you are seeing and starts banging away. VCs are a magnet for this kind of behavior for some reason. Sorry to rant, this is a pet peave of mine. While this may be alright and even necessary to some extent in a teaching situation, outside of that, I find this behavior very annoying.
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boku
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« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2007, 10:15:38 AM »
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You want to see this entire situation taken to its hysterical ultimate?

The flight deck at Bosque at daybreak in December. People watching is almost as entertaining a bird watching.
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Bob Kulon

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« Reply #15 on: March 21, 2007, 11:02:48 AM »
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Worse is getting stuck on that roadway loop at Bosque behind trolls who are too fat to get out of their car to shoot and don't even pull over so others can pass!!!! You can't honk either.

Solution, as said above, don't go to places that have been photographed excessively. That's what I do, or try to do.
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boku
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« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2007, 12:44:08 PM »
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Worse is getting stuck on that roadway loop at Bosque behind trolls who are too fat to get out of their car to shoot and don't even pull over so others can pass!!!! You can't honk either.

Solution, as said above, don't go to places that have been photographed excessively. That's what I do, or try to do.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=107883\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

And when they do finally move, they kick up a cloud of dust! If you happen to be changing lenses, you are totally defenseless.
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Bob Kulon

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« Reply #17 on: March 21, 2007, 12:53:46 PM »
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Dave:

Sorry to hear about your experience.  We were in Death Valley last week and fortunately the workshop locust had left the day after we arrived.

I did a little research and there were 3-4 workshops over the last couple weeks with some costing upwards of $2600 (not including air).  Possibly explains, but does not EXCUSE the rude behavior.

The dunes were pretty marked up (close to the road)--that's why we hiked way out to the back and found some pristine conditions!

The race track was nice on Saturday night...nobody there at sunset, absolutely gorgeous and dayam those rocks are hard to chase  

One way to avoid the workshop locust is to avoid off the road/100 yard walk locations    Generally the workshop crowd won't hike 2+ miles one-way in snow or 100 degree weather!

On a positive note, I was in Yosemite recently and a workshop leader reminded his group that "those guys" were there first (we arrived at 5am to wait a storm) and let them have their shots.  So, not all workshop leaders are bad!  If workshop leaders would model and teach "field manners", it would be better for all of us.

I hope you did get a stellar shot though!!    Awesome images are the best revenge!

Kindest regards,

Rich
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Paul Sumi
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« Reply #18 on: March 21, 2007, 03:01:43 PM »
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You want to see this entire situation taken to its hysterical ultimate?

The flight deck at Bosque at daybreak in December. People watching is almost as entertaining a bird watching.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=107871\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Or Tunnel View overlook in Yosemite Valley just about any time of the year but the dead of winter.  You'll see everything from camera cellphones to large format and everything in-between lined up side by side and several rows deep.

While not condoning rude behavior, at iconic locations like these it is almost impossible not to be "rude" at some times because of the density of people, especially if one is waiting for best light.

If someone is already there, I go look for other compositions.

Paul
« Last Edit: March 21, 2007, 03:13:31 PM by PaulS » Logged

Lisa Nikodym
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« Reply #19 on: March 21, 2007, 03:55:53 PM »
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Or Tunnel View overlook in Yosemite Valley just about any time of the year but the dead of winter. You'll see everything from camera cellphones to large format and everything in-between lined up side by side and several rows deep.

While not condoning rude behavior, at iconic locations like these it is almost impossible not to be "rude" at some times because of the density of people, especially if one is waiting for best light.

This is one of the places where getting just a couple of minutes' walk away from the road helps immensely.  There is a trail zig-zagging up the valley wall that leaves from just across the street from Tunnel View.  A few minutes up the first couple of zig-zags gets you the same view without all the people; my spouse & I call it "Improved Tunnel View".  (The trail is pretty narrow, though, so it might be tough to set up a tripod for any length of time without discommoding other hikers there, however few they are...)

Oops, I've giving away some of my Yosemite secrets!  

Lisa
« Last Edit: March 21, 2007, 03:59:05 PM by nniko » Logged

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