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Author Topic: Phase: Poker face or nothing up their sleeve?  (Read 24777 times)
Ethan Schoonover
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« on: March 30, 2007, 04:06:15 AM »
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I know this has been speculated on a lot, but Phase seems conspicuously quiet about their body plans. I'd like to get some collective LL forum wisdom on where Phase is heading in this regard.

(My search in the forum may have missed the überthread where this all gets explained, feel free to throw links at me in that case.)

I'm not the first to speculate that, if I was Phase, I'd either be pairing up with Mamiya for an all new integrated body or keeping real quiet about a Phase Hy6 and then stealing the Hy6 thunder by announcing it right after everybody else launches.

Anyone else have a read on their pokerface?
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mcfoto
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« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2007, 04:45:54 AM »
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Phase has to do something with Mamiya. The Hy6 is a Sinar camera with Leaf licenced to use it. Mamiya has a full lens range now including there new 28 & 75-150 zoom. They would have the advantage of the most affordable camera system.

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Graham Mitchell
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« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2007, 05:27:20 AM »
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Phase has to do something with Mamiya. The Hy6 is a Sinar camera with Leaf licenced to use it. Mamiya has a full lens range now including there new 28 & 75-150 zoom. They would have the advantage of the most affordable camera system.

Denis
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=109582\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I don't think Mamiya is going to be enough for Phase - most existing Phase users are using other platforms. Also, the ZD is competing directly with 'junior' Phase One backs already. I am just guessing but I think the 'co-operation' between the companies may not amount to a lot.
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Vic S
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« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2007, 06:03:48 AM »
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There is probably a good reason not to but... it seems to make sense they should design a body with 'interchangeable' lens mounts. No need to provide lenses. Would enhance their ability to sell backs.

My $.02 worth.
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Quentin
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« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2007, 07:29:28 AM »
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Depends how Phase One and Mamiya see the future.  If Phase One see themselves being marginalised by Hassy, Mamiya would look like a good partner.  On the other hand, if Mamiya, with their new digotal division, want to mimic Hassy (the ZD back is I think for mamiya bodies only) then Phase could have real problems as options begin the shut down for them.

For Formula 1 racing fans, think of the Williams F1 team, who once doiminated formula 1 but who have become increasingly marginalised now their recent partnership with BMW engines has expired and Cosworth are off the scene.  Phase are like Williams, dependent on their "partners" for survival at the moment.

Quentin
« Last Edit: March 30, 2007, 07:30:18 AM by Quentin » Logged

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Ed Jack
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« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2007, 07:39:39 AM »
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Depends how Phase One and Mamiya see the future.  If Phase One see themselves being marginalised by Hassy, Mamiya would look like a good partner.  On the other hand, if Mamiya, with their new digotal division, want to mimic Hassy (the ZD back is I think for mamiya bodies only) then Phase could have real problems as options begin the shut down for them.

For Formula 1 racing fans, think of the Williams F1 team, who once doiminated formula 1 but who have become increasingly marginalised now their recent partnership with BMW engines has expired and Cosworth are off the scene.  Phase are like Williams, dependent on their "partners" for survival at the moment.

Quentin
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 I suspect that the phase Mamiya thing is simply a new package deal for the high end. In other words buy a P30/45+ and get a AFDII and lens for free etc etc. this aviods any new pdoducts having to be released and avoids competition with the ZD and gets Hassleblad's backs up!

What ever happened to the stand alone ZD back... why not produce thsi in a Hassleblad mount for £5K and really see Hasselblad in pain ? Yes it would hurt Phase one sales a bit too... but not as much as it would hurt hte Ex-Sweede  

Ed
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Mort54
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« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2007, 08:49:04 AM »
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Phase doesn't appear to have many options. The ZD, the ZD back, and the upcoming Pentax and 1DsIII will all put pressure on Phase's P25 and P30 backs, which will force them to cut margins and profitability. On the high end, they could reverse engineer the Hy6 interface and offer backs for it. They can contine to offer backs for Mamiya, Hassy H1 and H2 bodies, and Contax 645's. And they can continue to offer backs for the view camera market. It's hard to see what else they can do. I don't think they have deep enough pockets to design their own camera system. It'll certainly be interesting to see how it all plays out.
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Ethan Schoonover
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« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2007, 08:55:31 AM »
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I don't think Mamiya is going to be enough for Phase - most existing Phase users are using other platforms. Also, the ZD is competing directly with 'junior' Phase One backs already. I am just guessing but I think the 'co-operation' between the companies may not amount to a lot.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=109587\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yeah, if no ZD I would have said Mamiya was a no brainer for a body tie up.

Then again, the ZD was so long in coming, I wonder if Mamiya would be more inclined to work with Phase for a higher end unit rather than run that gauntlet again.

Plus, when Phase comes out with their 60 I bet they'll care less about the 20MP end of the market (which Canon will eat up anyhow). <wild speculation>
ZD ends up as prototype for the new Phasiya.</wild speculation>
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Graham Mitchell
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« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2007, 09:33:24 AM »
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Yeah, if no ZD I would have said Mamiya was a no brainer for a body tie up.

Then again, the ZD was so long in coming, I wonder if Mamiya would be more inclined to work with Phase for a higher end unit rather than run that gauntlet again.

Remember they have new ownership - a software company iirc - and I bet they have their sights set on a digital future for Mamiya, having that sort of background. So that excludes Phase. Also, the money is not in the camera bodies, especially with so many bodies on the used market at the moment. Really I don't see what Phase can offer Mamiya right now.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2007, 09:34:18 AM by foto-z » Logged

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hankg
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« Reply #9 on: March 30, 2007, 09:49:48 AM »
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They should pick up the tooling for the discontinued Contax 645 from Kyocera and make a deal with Zeiss. Come out with an improved Phase One 645 tightly integrated to the Phase One backs. If they can't get the old Contax/Zeiss lens line which was manufactured in Asia up and running. Zeiss has all those orphaned Hasselblad FE lenses (though not autofocus) that could be put into a Contax mount.

There is already an installed base of Contax 645 users many of whom are Phase customers.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2007, 09:57:56 AM by hankg » Logged

Ethan Schoonover
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« Reply #10 on: March 30, 2007, 10:08:54 AM »
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They should pick up the tooling for the discontinued Contax 645 from Kyocera and make a deal with Zeiss. Come out with an improved Phase One 645 tightly integrated to the Phase One backs.

There is already an installed base of Contax 645 users many of whom are Phase customers.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=109634\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Lovely post, I'd just replace the words "Contax 645 users" with "Contax 645 rabidly-loyal-you'll-have-to-pry-it-from-my-cold-dead-hands users".

Besides being a rock solid (and rock heavy) system, it would be a great story too... rising from the ashes. I fear it will remain merely a dream but would be a lovely turn of events.
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mattlap2
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« Reply #11 on: March 30, 2007, 10:16:43 AM »
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They should pick up the tooling for the discontinued Contax 645 from Kyocera and make a deal with Zeiss. Come out with an improved Phase One 645 tightly integrated to the Phase One backs. If they can't get the old Contax/Zeiss lens line which was manufactured in Asia up and running. Zeiss has all those orphaned Hasselblad FE lenses (though not autofocus) that could be put into a Contax mount.

There is already an installed base of Contax 645 users many of whom are Phase customers.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=109634\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Many an attempt has been made to get Kyocera to give up the rights to the Contax name.   The Carl Zeiss Trust owns the name, but it is licensed to Kyocera.    Zeiss has tried everything including legal action to get it back with no real progress as of last year.

I also believe (personal observation) that Phase does not have the financial resources to make their own camera.    It would have to be a partnership with an existing camera manufacturer or a merger.

Matt LaPointe
Sinar Bron Imaging
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mlapointe@sinarbron.com
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hankg
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« Reply #12 on: March 30, 2007, 10:18:35 AM »
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They would not use the Contax name, just the medium format tooling, mount and camera designs which as time passes will be worth less and less to Kyocera. The Contax brand is a can of worms Phase can't afford to touch. Maybe they can source the camera assembly to the original factory or another Asian source.

If they could just get the old Contax 645 body as is with new wiring and software out the door along with an improved MAM adapter -users would have plenty of cost effective choice in the used market between Contax and Hasselblad FE lenses. The lens range would instantly be broader and faster then the new Rollei/Sonar/Leaf and on a par (as well as cheaper) as anything else out there. New lenses could come latter.

Hell, give the body away with new backs to keep clients from bailing to other closed systems.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2007, 10:25:28 AM by hankg » Logged

Steve Stayton
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« Reply #13 on: March 30, 2007, 10:22:26 AM »
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I for one am expecting (and hoping) that Phase will have a back interface for the Rollie Hy6 sometime later this year.

At the PMA show in Las Vegas a few weeks ago I looked at the Hy6 (seemed to be a functional prototype and not a production unit). The US distributor, Direct Source Marketing, indicated that the Hy6 would be available mid year in a Rollieflex branded configuration as a film camera and that there was nothing to prevent any digital back maker from building backs for the Hy6. This was music to my ears as I see the Hy6 as having the potential to be a versatile platform for many backs now and in the future. And all those wonderful lenses for the Rollie!

I asked about pricing and they indicated that it was not determined yet. I asked if the Hy6 would be in short supply initially they indicated that they felt they were designing the production levels to fully meet the expected demand. One should take that last bit with a grain of salt in my opinion but they should know by now that there is huge interest in the Hy6 by a lot of medium format photographers.
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hankg
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« Reply #14 on: March 30, 2007, 10:29:32 AM »
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I for one am expecting (and hoping) that Phase will have a back interface for the Rollie Hy6 sometime later this year.

See this thread:
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....=hy6+rolleiflex

- Franke & Heidecke has the rights to sell this camera in Japan, China and Russia ONLY, AND under the name "Rolleiflex" (and has not the rights to sell it to Phase One).

- Phase One is not part of this project, which means in clear that this camera will not be sold to Phase One.


Phase getting the Contax 645 resurrected and rebranded as a Phase One is a long shot but Phase looks to be facing an impossible situation. Without cooperation from the camera manufacturers they have got no business and there are lots of Contax users still out there. Its a much bigger installed base then the Hy6 installed base which is currently 0.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2007, 10:35:10 AM by hankg » Logged

Steve Stayton
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« Reply #15 on: March 30, 2007, 10:35:00 AM »
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Yeah, I know about that posting, that is why I was glad to hear something to the contrary.
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Steve Stayton
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« Reply #16 on: March 30, 2007, 10:36:36 AM »
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Phase does not have to be part of the "project" in order to make backs to fit a Hy6 just like they make backs to fit an H1/H2 or a Mamiya 645 or a Contax 645.
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mattlap2
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« Reply #17 on: March 30, 2007, 10:42:52 AM »
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They would not use the Contax name, just the medium format tooling, mount and camera designs which as time passes will be worth less and less to Kyocera. The Contax brand is a can of worms Phase can't afford to touch. Maybe they can source the camera assembly to the original factory or another Asian source.

If they could just get the old Contax 645 body as is with new wiring and software out the door along with an improved MAM adapter -users would have plenty of cost effective choice in the used market between Contax and Hasselblad FE lenses. The lens range would instantly be broader and faster then the new Rollei/Sonar/Leaf and on a par (as well as cheaper) as anything else out there. New lenses could come latter.

Hell, give the body away with new backs to keep clients from bailing to other closed systems.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=109644\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

You seem to forget that Contax owns all the lens designs for that camera.   They are all Carl Zeiss lenses.  

It was my understanding (and I may very well be wrong) that Carl Zeiss was integral in the design of that camera and holds rights to it as well.

Sometimes some posters on this board over simplify the legal and ownership hurdles to what seem like great ideas.    

Carl Zeiss would love to have ability to have that camera (or a successor) in production again.   However it just doesn't seem to be in the cards anytime soon.

Matt LaPointe
Sinar Bron Imaging
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(219) 670-9905
mlapointe@sinarbron.com
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mattlap2
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« Reply #18 on: March 30, 2007, 10:46:42 AM »
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I for one am expecting (and hoping) that Phase will have a back interface for the Rollie Hy6 sometime later this year.

At the PMA show in Las Vegas a few weeks ago I looked at the Hy6 (seemed to be a functional prototype and not a production unit). The US distributor, Direct Source Marketing, indicated that the Hy6 would be available mid year in a Rollieflex branded configuration as a film camera and that there was nothing to prevent any digital back maker from building backs for the Hy6. This was music to my ears as I see the Hy6 as having the potential to be a versatile platform for many backs now and in the future. And all those wonderful lenses for the Rollie!

I asked about pricing and they indicated that it was not determined yet. I asked if the Hy6 would be in short supply initially they indicated that they felt they were designing the production levels to fully meet the expected demand. One should take that last bit with a grain of salt in my opinion but they should know by now that there is huge interest in the Hy6 by a lot of medium format photographers.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=109646\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Direct Source Marketing is no longer the distributor of Rollei.   The worldwide distributor is Sinar with the exception of the UK I believe.     In the United States the distributor is Sinar Bron Imaging.

I do believe DSM has Rollei Stock they are still blowing out, but they should have no ability to get the Hy6.  

Matt LaPointe
Sinar Bron Imaging
National Sales Support Specialist
(219) 670-9905
mlapointe@sinarbron.com
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hankg
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« Reply #19 on: March 30, 2007, 10:54:11 AM »
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You seem to forget that Contax owns all the lens designs for that camera.   They are all Carl Zeiss lenses.  

It was my understanding (and I may very well be wrong) that Carl Zeiss was integral in the design of that camera and holds rights to it as well.

Sometimes some posters on this board over simplify the legal and ownership hurdles to what seem like great ideas.   

Carl Zeiss would love to have ability to have that camera (or a successor) in production again.   However it just doesn't seem to be in the cards anytime soon.

Of course everything I wrote is idle speculation, not based on anything Phase One is actually likely to do or consider doing and I have no idea of who has rights to what vis-a-vis the Contax camera design or whether Phase One has the capability or desire to pull off such a venture. But if it where a possibility (and it's impossible to know if it is or isn't possible) I bet there would be a lot of happy Contax 645/Phase One owners who are now considering switching, not by choice, but because their camera and or their camera back is a 'dead end'. And as you point out Zeiss would be happy to have another platform for it's lens line.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2007, 10:59:46 AM by hankg » Logged

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