Ad
Ad
Ad
Pages: [1]   Bottom of Page
Print
Author Topic: Canon EOS1D Mark II N banding issue  (Read 6020 times)
SX001
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 8


« on: March 30, 2007, 08:57:49 AM »
ReplyReply

Huh.. I really feel that 1D Mark II N is not worth that money I spent.... banding,
which I have on this camera and I feel that my old EOS350D even if it has 1.6
size sensor, it makes better picture even becouse not such problems. But so
far I had even more problems with warranty service and they try to fool me.

I searched the internet about this EOS 1D Mark II N banding problem and at once I found but later the information about this banding issue by another camera user also but it just got lost in advertisements or someone censured it when I couple days later tried search. It was this article when user compared 1D Mark II N with Nikon D70 and Canon EOS 5D. Someone remember it?

My Canon EOS1D Mark II N as the flagship camera has banding defect, which is appearnig when using high (1250, 1600, 3200) ISO speeds and when taking series sequential frames then 1st frame has like black lines over the picture.
Only the first frame when making sequential pictures after some short pause allowing camera to go automatic standby mode.

I sent it to the Powermill service in Sweden, after couple days they said, that it is ready and they could not re-produce the error for now. After I got camera and checked again, there was no change at all. I asked how did they tested and what they modified? Then some weeks later I got answer, they just changed iso speed to 100 and that was the only change. Hahahaa, but I did not bought 3200 EUR costing camera for making pictures only at ISO 100 what I used mostly with my old EOS350D. I sent second time to service. This time it took 2 weeks and when I got back, the picture was better, but just 1 week later it just got amazingly bad again! Heh, please give back my
money and I want back my EOS350D which does not have those nasty
problems.
And then I discovered 2 errors with my EOS 1D Mark II N. 1st as banding problem and 2nd as sensitivity difference with another camera.
1.  Strange, when EOS1D Mark II N reports the light as 1/125, Canon 20D reports it as 1/160 with same aperture.
2. after taking shot with those parameters as camera wanted, then  comparing the pictures with old Canon 20D, the Canon 20D was FAR less noisy and no banding at all with 1/160, while EOS1D with 1/125 has lots of banding and darker picture also.

with EOS1D Mark II N what I have here there is banding noticeable even at ISO 1250. with canon 20D it is MUCH cleaner even at ISO3200. But so... I did not bought 1D Mark II N for making 20D pictures! And this 1D what I have is much worse than 20D and my older 350D!!!!
 Older model Canon EOS1D Mark II which my friend has, there is no such errors and thats why I thought that it is wize to upgrade to EOS1D Mark II N -- less noise.

So, I called again the Canon authorized service as POWERMILL in Stockholm, they said that I cant compare those cameras and better do not use those high iso speeds, use flash instead of it. Heh...?!?? wow. They treat 1D like some baby box camera! I did _not_ bought camera for making pictures like I was used with EOS350D !

And now... I am waiting when the technicial will be back from foreign country and it takes some time when it will be "expertized" 3rd time. Real disappointment. If I had idea then I have not bought this camera at all.

if someone wants to see testpictures then I can show them also.

Another thing I want to say, which shop to avoid:

2nd problem: bilder-joker.de rudeness.

Nobody answers to the phone calls. I was able only at once contact them
while waiting half hour and trying multiple times.
I bougth this camera from www.bilder-joker.de which I dont recommend anyone, when I sent e-mail the reply took from them 3 weeks and they say that my 1 year warranty is over. (but actually it was just 6 months from the purchase date when I sent e-mail!). When just asking explanation it, they said ok, it is nearly 1 year, but  if you have problem then you have only 1 month for reacting. (?!?) The camera when arrived there was missing manual and the camera has in the beginning already over 5000 shots taken.
Logged
Ray
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 8948


« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2007, 10:55:17 AM »
ReplyReply

I think you'd better post an example so we can see what you are talking about. One thing you should bear in mind when using high ISOs is that it's more important to expose to the right. At ISO 100, you can sometimes get away with a stop or 2 underexposure, but not at ISO 1600.

Even at ISO 100 with my 5D, if it's a high dynamic range scene, I'll get banding in the deep shadows. It looks like a reddish, coarse jute fabric.
Logged
SX001
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 8


« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2007, 01:29:56 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote
I think you'd better post an example so we can see what you are talking about.

http://www.comnetsys.eu/albums/error/

(in the following article I use 1D for full name Canon 1D Mark II N)

I made couple tests with those high speed iso.
here you have raw file examples of 1D Mark II N, and Canon 20D on separate directories.
 OK, even if with big iso there is not possible to get away 1..2 stops, then why it was no big problem with Canon 20 D ?
The light was luminescent (quite
bad), but it seems to be problem for 1D but not for 20D. Why?

You see that in same light and same lens (I adjusted the focal length so the picture will be quite same for also 1.6x sensor) it does not seem logical at all if cheaper camera in same light conditions with higher shutter speed at the same aperture makes brighter and clean picture and not so noisy problem to adjust 1..2 stops away compared to my 1D.
Logged
SX001
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 8


« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2007, 07:45:35 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: SX001,Apr 3 2007, 01:29 AM
http://www.comnetsys.eu/albums/error/

I am very disappointed at Canons nowadays flagship models. The higher price and
worse picture quality compared to low-end cameras.

I also uploaded sensitivity tests on
subdirectory "error" there are sensitivity tests with 20D vs. 1D. with same scheme. You notice that 20D uses higher shutter speed, but less noise, less banding.

But I bought the camera becouse I wanted lower noise (if referring to the camera comparison tests with older EOS1D Mark II (without N)). But I had no idea that with higher price I will get worse picture quality! (see the comparison pictures).

I talked with canon support -- very timeconsuming! So far I have 1 month for now run with this defective camera between the services. The support technician admits also that: some low end cameras like Canon 20D has more sensor noise in higher ISO speeds compared to __latest__ Canon 1D models, but 1D models have different advantages.


The shop where from I bought the camera (Bilder-joker.de in Germany) is denying problem and ignoring.  What are the possible solutions to just
get refund and get back this old EOS 350D becouse I really dont like this EOS1D at all -- higher price with lower quality.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2007, 07:52:47 AM by SX001 » Logged
Ray
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 8948


« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2007, 11:32:07 AM »
ReplyReply

There are definitely traces of banding, which noise reduction cannot get rid of. This is the best I can do with image 9524. This was converted with RSP with noise reduction, color noise reduction and hot pixel suppression all at 50. I also ran the image through Neat Image which helped a bit.

[attachment=2233:attachment]

The fact is that some Canon cameras do suffer from banding. There were many complaints about the 1Ds in this regard. When I bought my 5D, I noticed disturbing banding in the shadows. I returned it within days of the purchase and got a replacement. There's still some banding, but not quite as bad as in the first camera.

A couple of points which you might not be aware of. ISO 3200, I believe, is actually ISO 1600 underexposed one stop and amplified after A/D conversion with all the noise. Nevertheless, this doesn't explain why the 20D shots are free of banding, because the same situation also applies to the 20D.

Since I'm on a 56k dial-up connection I've only downloaded a couple of your RAW files. But when I compare the RGB values of the 2 images (9524 and 0810) I see the 1D2 image, where the banding occurs, has some pretty low values, like 78,75,66. The 20D shot, as a result of different lighting, has values of 140,114,50 in the same areas, before conversion in default mode.

What I suggest you do is take shots with both cameras in identical lighting conditions, making adjustments for any ISO sensitivity differences.
Logged
SX001
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 8


« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2007, 12:27:54 PM »
ReplyReply

thank you for your reply.

the first time teh same repaircenter just tried to fool me adjusting camera ISO setting to 100 and nothing were changed. And now perhaps they tried to do something different but they claim that they have changed sensor inside (but the old defective sensor I have NEVER got).


The 20D I dont have at the moment those pictures what I made on that moment are the only one, I tried to have the same situation as possible using the same light situation with camera offered automatic settings. noise reduction off on both cameras when making ISO 3200 pictures, the focal length was slightly adjusted for 20D to get the same picture compostion as possible.

If possible I try to make comparisons with another 1D2MkIIN from local store (if they have it available).
Logged
John Sheehy
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 838


« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2007, 05:54:57 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote
If possible I try to make comparisons with another 1D2MkIIN from local store (if they have it available).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=110431\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

If you had some truly black areas in the image, it would be easy to tell how far off this camera is, read-noise-wise.  It seems, however, that it is higher than normal.  I would say the overall noise in the darkest areas is almost a stop stronger than it should be for that camera.
Logged
SX001
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 8


« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2007, 07:18:02 AM »
ReplyReply

Yes I think also this way. One stop more noise. They dont want to admit the problems and they explain that "there will be variation between the camera
sensitivity". But its not normal that I end up that with EOS20D its enough 1/60 F4 and for EOS 1D Mark IIN will be 1/60 F2.8 or 1/30 F2.8.
I sent also the pictures to canon representative and they answered this way.

I am _very_ curious to see those pictures of "possible banding disappeared". They promised to sent those to me. Well you will see them also in that case.

---------from canon.
From: Hakan.Stenback@canon.se



I have now down loaded all pictures from your website and together with one
of my colleagues looked at them. We used both Photoshop CS2 and Canon DPP.
We noticed that when we reset either the default or the auto setting in PS
cs2 and got back to the original exposure possible banding disappeared. If
you extend for instance contrast, brightness, shadows or exposure values in
pictures like this (with high ISO setting and slightly underexposed) you
will amplify noise and perhaps create banding.  As you of course know the
quality of your computer screen and graphic card in the computer is very
important. Sometimes pictures with slight banding on the screen is ok when
printed out.

We have also compared the level of noise in pictures taken with other
1DMKIIN cameras at high ISO settings and there are no difference at all.
However, like you pointed out, the type of noise compared with 20D is
different. 20D create more "soft noise" then 1DMKIIN which has another type
of noise, this is due to the different characters of the sensors and
nothing that can be changed or fixed by a service work shop.

As far as we can determent from your picture samples there is nothing wrong
with your camera and a new or another camera would not make any changes in
terms of what you are complaining about.




------------


     HELP!?!? WHAT CAN I DO?!?
« Last Edit: April 04, 2007, 07:22:18 AM by SX001 » Logged
SX001
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 8


« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2007, 07:33:28 AM »
ReplyReply

could it be possible that they did not changed sensor at all but they tricked me that just fake tuned the sensor with pushing up amplification and -1 stop exposure?

it can be checked if to compare another 1D MKII that how far the exposure compensation can be on both sides compared to my camera. It seems too strange that exposure compensation -1 (@ISO3200) for EOS20D is like no problem  almost while EOS1D MK II will get very very noisy (at same ISO of course).


Does anyone knows where to send the complain about service? So far those people are too low figures in Canon corporation which ones I had to contact and they are cheating possibly.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2007, 07:55:32 AM by SX001 » Logged
Ray
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 8948


« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2007, 08:58:35 AM »
ReplyReply

SX001,
It probably is true that the noise and banding in the deep shadows in a 20D image is finer and less objectionable. I noticed right away that this was true for my 5D.

However, I repeat, in the images I downloaded, the banding in the 1D2 shot occurred in parts of the image that had received less light than the same parts in the 20D shot that showed no banding, roughly about half a stop less exposure. The dynamic range of the 1D2 scene was greater.

To be clear about this you have to shoot the same scene with identical lighting with both cameras, making exposure allowances for any ISO sensitivity differences between the two cameras.
Logged
SX001
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 8


« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2007, 06:25:57 AM »
ReplyReply

I visited downtown and suburbia and there were no such 1DMKIIN body on shop.
I had only ability to compare with EOS5D and EOS30D -- no banding in same
situation with those bodys.
Only comes when ordered.

So I tried next things with my camera but so far _none_ of them had effect to banding, the banding remains:

* exposure compensation up to +1.5
* picture style settings adjustment: sharpness and contrast minimum level
* different aperture/shutter speed combinations


Heh, but 20D, 30D which are much cheaper dont have such nasty issues and have better picture quality than my EOS1DMKIIN. Strange?

and those Canon service center and representatives are just trying to find excuses instead of trying to solve the problem while I am not the only one with this defective camera.

so far the excuses are:
 * dont use iso3200, use lower iso with flash instead of it.
 * yes we know that low end cameras sometimes have less noise and banding compared to flagship models but flagship models have different advantages.
 * first time when I sent camera there was nothing changed instead of just camera settings was changed power saving off and ISO settings to 100.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2007, 06:26:32 AM by SX001 » Logged
SX001
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 8


« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2007, 04:15:46 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote
SX001,
It probably is true that the noise and banding in the deep shadows in a 20D image is finer and less objectionable. I noticed right away that this was true for my 5D.

However, I repeat, in the images I downloaded, the banding in the 1D2 shot occurred in parts of the image that had received less light than the same parts in the 20D shot that showed no banding, roughly about half a stop less exposure. The dynamic range of the 1D2 scene was greater.

To be clear about this you have to shoot the same scene with identical lighting with both cameras, making exposure allowances for any ISO sensitivity differences between the two cameras.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=110575\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

NB! take a closer look at the raw file settings. It is on both cameras aperture priority. And now, something completely different ----> 1D2 has __longer__ exposure time, but the result is __DARKER__ picture. Is it normal?

If I apply the manual settings to both cameras then 1D2 makes 1 stop darker picture. Is it normal? For second: to get the same bright picture then I need to use 1 stop longer exposure time or 1 stop wider aperture. its not normal.

I made the shot used aperture priority with both cameras with same iso setting and compensating only the focal length a little bit to get the same composition on picture (becouse the final raw picture is most important). And so in this setting the
camera itself will offer the exposure time.
Logged
Pages: [1]   Top of Page
Print
Jump to:  

Ad
Ad
Ad