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Author Topic: H3D22 or P25+  (Read 16508 times)
mtomalty
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« Reply #20 on: April 08, 2007, 08:37:32 PM »
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When you upgrade the p series to a plus, you get a whole new camera,

Interesting. I did not know that.

Which shutter,viewfinder,and optic comes with a + series back  :>)

Mark
« Last Edit: April 09, 2007, 12:05:35 AM by mtomalty » Logged
BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #21 on: April 08, 2007, 08:43:28 PM »
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When you upgrade the p series to a plus, you get a whole new camera, not just an upgrade to firmware and a message on the display that tells you it is not a 'real'h3d, but an upgrade. [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=111384\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

When you upgrade from a Pxx to a Pxx+, you get a new back, not a new camera.

Regards,
Bernard
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A few images online here!
ixpressraf
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« Reply #22 on: April 09, 2007, 03:33:19 AM »
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The upgrade from H2 to H3 is not a firmware upgrade but a complete different camerabody with a complete different viewfinder, both especially dedicated to their Hd backs only. Also it is the only body to accept the new 28mm and the upcoming tilt and shift lenses ( they will not work on the H1/H2 platform)
The upgrade from a H1 to H2 was one part firmware on and the other hand new power supply for the digital backs, directly powered by the camera battery.
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godtfred
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« Reply #23 on: April 09, 2007, 06:28:39 AM »
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The upgrade from H2 to H3 is not a firmware upgrade but a complete different camerabody with a complete different viewfinder, both especially dedicated to their Hd backs only. Also it is the only body to accept the new 28mm and the upcoming tilt and shift lenses ( they will not work on the H1/H2 platform)
The upgrade from a H1 to H2 was one part firmware on and the other hand new power supply for the digital backs, directly powered by the camera battery.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=111443\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Not exactly, its somewhere in the middle. They give you a brand new back, but if your old back is in a H mount, and you therefore naturally have a H-series body, you have to send this in as well where they change some parts inside and send it back as a H3 body (upgraded H1/H2.)

The viewfinder part is correct, they take your old and give you a new.

-axel
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Axel Bauer
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pss
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« Reply #24 on: April 09, 2007, 01:42:27 PM »
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Hasselblad is at the moment the most sophisticated system there is. Rollei is at the moment only talking in riddles about the HY6 ( and already people are dreaming of it and even pretending they will buy the camera( one that until now even doesn't exist in real life)).
mamiya isn't a real competition because of the limitations of their lens quality and an uncertain future.
Plus, you can always upgrade your back to a CF product wich fits all camera on the market.
But why would you go for an other cameraplatform since H3 is so nice and more beautifull lenses are coming soon....?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=111372\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

if you consider automatic lenscorrection for the 28 the ultimate, then yes the H3 is the most sophisticated system....but the backs are one step behind phase and the camera body is not everybody's dream by far....horizontal only shooting(vertical is a major pain handheld), poor ergonomics and questionable weightdistribution are not really high on my list when i look for a camera system....add to that the most limited of all lens ranges available and the by far highest price....
i am glad you are happy with yours, but there are options out there and i would strongly recommend testing different systems.....

about mamiya: just compared 2 shoots, one shot with the H2/ 55-110 zoom/P30 one with the mamiya 645afdII 55-110 zoom/P30....i would not consider the mamiya a great lens but it easily kept up with the hasselblad, but with the extra 5? pounds of the hasselblad set-up only about 1/3 of the shots were uesable although i already compensated by shooting at a highe iso....in combination with mirrorshake it was not a pretty edit.....and i remember being exhausted and having to put the camera down in between shooting because f the small grip and the enomous weigh hanging from it.....this is all vertical shooting...in comparison the mamiya feels like a slr....with cleaner files (400 instead of 800) and more to choose from....again i owuld not consider each of the lenses great....they are decend zooms, any fixed focus is better......
i am not saying the 645afd lenses are better then hasselblad, they are comparable, the RZ lenses are better then the hass lenses....noticeable....

but all this is personal opinion and everybody should really look into these things....different things work for different people....
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pss
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« Reply #25 on: April 09, 2007, 01:48:02 PM »
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What I most like about the Hassy system is the upgradeability (don't know if this word even exists(I'm spanish)). Because talking with a rep of phase one some time ago while I was firstly thinking of the change to MF there is no upgrade policity, you just need to sell the back and get a new one... an this represents a lot of money. Now in spain is an offer h2d to h3d for 1000, so it's way cheaper than selling a p25 to get the plus version.... So if there is no huge difference in quality I think i will go for the h3d22 or 31... have to think and test both....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=111374\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


phase has a complete upgrade program....step up program , whatever oyu want to call it....of course they don't deal with bodies, but the backs can always be traded in....or the mount switched....


also worth considering is that the P30 with a mamiya 645afd costs about1/3 less then the H3D31 with comparable specs (other then sync speed) and better files (in my opinion...) the extra money buys a lot of lenses, and a complete RZ set-up which takes care of the sync speed issue.....
look into your options and really make sure you check out the workflow....
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cesarrojo
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« Reply #26 on: April 09, 2007, 02:00:41 PM »
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Thanks for the information. For me the body option is hassy or hassy I shot quite much sports so the speed sync is a must. I can deal now with 1/200 but when panning is not possible (motorcycle coming towards you for example) and just want fill flash to kill shadows i get some blur where the flash is not hiting the subject so i have to dismiss using the flash... and here is where the sync of the hassy opens some doors...

So I am concentrating on the IQ, ISO, DR and easy to upgrade...

Any has done a side by side comparison for p25 and h3d? I will try to get the same object for the demos but it will be hard to use same light everything to make a fair comparison...


Quote
phase has a complete upgrade program....step up program , whatever oyu want to call it....of course they don't deal with bodies, but the backs can always be traded in....or the mount switched....
also worth considering is that the P30 with a mamiya 645afd costs about1/3 less then the H3D31 with comparable specs (other then sync speed) and better files (in my opinion...) the extra money buys a lot of lenses, and a complete RZ set-up which takes care of the sync speed issue.....
look into your options and really make sure you check out the workflow....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=111518\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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pss
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« Reply #27 on: April 09, 2007, 02:23:51 PM »
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Thanks for the information. For me the body option is hassy or hassy I shot quite much sports so the speed sync is a must. I can deal now with 1/200 but when panning is not possible (motorcycle coming towards you for example) and just want fill flash to kill shadows i get some blur where the flash is not hiting the subject so i have to dismiss using the flash... and here is where the sync of the hassy opens some doors...

So I am concentrating on the IQ, ISO, DR and easy to upgrade...

Any has done a side by side comparison for p25 and h3d? I will try to get the same object for the demos but it will be hard to use same light everything to make a fair comparison...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=111529\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


have you thought about how you want to focus? motorcycles coming at you? the af with the H system (or with the mamiya as well, althoug at least has a wider zone) in general autofocus with medium format is pretty much useless unless :all you objects are alway deadcenter in the frame or : they don't move at all...does not sound like your work would be in either category.....i shoot people and i gave up on AF some time ago....even if people sit still, constantly focus, recompose, focus, recompose,...you just miss all the moments trying to concentrate on moving the camera up and down.....manual focus is the only way......for what you are talking about the canons are much better, especially with their waaaaaaaaaaaaay better fill flash in combination with the autofocus....and much faster shooting in general.....

just think about it: any MF back is useless in a runway situation with a model WALKING towards you besides the autofocus, one shot every 1.2 seconds!!!!!and you are even thinking about the P25? 1 shot every 2 seconds?even if oyu set it up perfectly (focus set, flash set) you get one shot and the moment is gone and i doubt you can time it right to hit the fraction of a second when the bike is in the right place.....that is what the new 8frames/sec raw canon is for.....it will nail that shot every time....

when you test the H3, try and follow a bird and get 2 crisp shots....and then think about shooting sports...
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cesarrojo
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« Reply #28 on: April 09, 2007, 02:29:06 PM »
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I do it much of the time manually, my d2x cannot keep the speed so no problem for the focus and never ever use sequence shooting always one frame each time... I tried long time ago sequence but is really hard to get the good one because it just depends on luck... so i prefer to trust my finger... But anyway i will try autofocus

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have you thought about how you want to focus? motorcycles coming at you? the af with the H system (or with the mamiya as well, althoug at least has a wider zone) in general autofocus with medium format is pretty much useless unless :all you objects are alway deadcenter in the frame or : they don't move at all...does not sound like your work would be in either category.....i shoot people and i gave up on AF some time ago....even if people sit still, constantly focus, recompose, focus, recompose,...you just miss all the moments trying to concentrate on moving the camera up and down.....manual focus is the only way......for what you are talking about the canons are much better, especially with their waaaaaaaaaaaaay better fill flash in combination with the autofocus....and much faster shooting in general.....

just think about it: any MF back is useless in a runway situation with a model WALKING towards you besides the autofocus, one shot every 1.2 seconds!!!!!and you are even thinking about the P25? 1 shot every 2 seconds?even if oyu set it up perfectly (focus set, flash set) you get one shot and the moment is gone and i doubt you can time it right to hit the fraction of a second when the bike is in the right place.....that is what the new 8frames/sec raw canon is for.....it will nail that shot every time....

when you test the H3, try and follow a bird and get 2 crisp shots....and then think about shooting sports...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=111538\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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stevecoleccs
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« Reply #29 on: April 09, 2007, 02:30:14 PM »
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Hey  - do you own an H2 or H3?
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cesarrojo
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« Reply #30 on: April 09, 2007, 02:33:35 PM »
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Also for flash i use bowens explorer 1500. Thats why i get only 1/200 sync



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have you thought about how you want to focus? motorcycles coming at you? the af with the H system (or with the mamiya as well, althoug at least has a wider zone) in general autofocus with medium format is pretty much useless unless :all you objects are alway deadcenter in the frame or : they don't move at all...does not sound like your work would be in either category.....i shoot people and i gave up on AF some time ago....even if people sit still, constantly focus, recompose, focus, recompose,...you just miss all the moments trying to concentrate on moving the camera up and down.....manual focus is the only way......for what you are talking about the canons are much better, especially with their waaaaaaaaaaaaay better fill flash in combination with the autofocus....and much faster shooting in general.....

just think about it: any MF back is useless in a runway situation with a model WALKING towards you besides the autofocus, one shot every 1.2 seconds!!!!!and you are even thinking about the P25? 1 shot every 2 seconds?even if oyu set it up perfectly (focus set, flash set) you get one shot and the moment is gone and i doubt you can time it right to hit the fraction of a second when the bike is in the right place.....that is what the new 8frames/sec raw canon is for.....it will nail that shot every time....

when you test the H3, try and follow a bird and get 2 crisp shots....and then think about shooting sports...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=111538\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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cesarrojo
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« Reply #31 on: April 09, 2007, 02:34:44 PM »
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nope

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Hey  - do you own an H2 or H3?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=111541\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Nick_T
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« Reply #32 on: April 09, 2007, 02:34:50 PM »
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also worth considering is that the P30 with a mamiya 645afd costs about1/3 less then the H3D31 with comparable specs (other then sync speed) and better files (in my opinion...)[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=111518\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Can you point us to the files you have compared between the P30 and the H3D31?

Nick-T
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paul_jones
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« Reply #33 on: April 09, 2007, 04:06:13 PM »
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have you thought about how you want to focus? motorcycles coming at you? the af with the H system (or with the mamiya as well, althoug at least has a wider zone) in general autofocus with medium format is pretty much useless unless :all you objects are alway deadcenter in the frame or : they don't move at all...does not sound like your work would be in either category.....i shoot people and i gave up on AF some time ago....even if people sit still, constantly focus, recompose, focus, recompose,...you just miss all the moments trying to concentrate on moving the camera up and down.....manual focus is the only way......for what you are talking about the canons are much better, especially with their waaaaaaaaaaaaay better fill flash in combination with the autofocus....and much faster shooting in general.....

just think about it: any MF back is useless in a runway situation with a model WALKING towards you besides the autofocus, one shot every 1.2 seconds!!!!!and you are even thinking about the P25? 1 shot every 2 seconds?even if oyu set it up perfectly (focus set, flash set) you get one shot and the moment is gone and i doubt you can time it right to hit the fraction of a second when the bike is in the right place.....that is what the new 8frames/sec raw canon is for.....it will nail that shot every time....

when you test the H3, try and follow a bird and get 2 crisp shots....and then think about shooting sports...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=111538\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

i was shooting a model jumping 3/4 towards the camera last week. the h1 has a lot of delay in the shutter as well. i use to own a canon, and have had no problems in the past. but the h1, i had to release the shutter half a meter before the model actually jumped. it was quite tricky.
the focus is pretty much useless for this type of situation as well.

paul
« Last Edit: April 09, 2007, 04:07:20 PM by paul_jones » Logged

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pss
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« Reply #34 on: April 09, 2007, 04:58:59 PM »
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Can you point us to the files you have compared between the P30 and the H3D31?

Nick-T
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=111544\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
a friend told me that he had shot with the H3D and i asked to see a couple of raw files....i am not saying they looked bad at all, but overall i thought color was still a bit of an issue..noise seemed on par with the P30, it is always hard if oyu can't compare the same scene shot with 2 backs....i would say that it looked about 95% (almost) as good as the P30....i expected that..same chip....but the P30 has been out for a while and the P30+ is shipping soon, which should widen the gap again....
i am sure the H3D31 is extremely capable, but there are other options out there...better and cheaper ones in my opinion...
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qwerty
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« Reply #35 on: April 09, 2007, 05:16:52 PM »
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I can deal now with 1/200 but when panning is not possible (motorcycle coming towards you for example) and just want fill flash to kill shadows i get some blur where the flash is not hiting the subject so i have to dismiss using the flash... and here is where the sync of the hassy opens some doors...


Even the hassie that syncs at 1/800 (correct me if im wrong) woudnt serve you too much in that situation.
For example: you set your lights to do a fill flash, that means low output flash is normally done, 1/1500 to up, you sync your camera to 1/800, one part of the "thing" will frozen to 1/1500 another to 1/800, the ghost image is still there.
So, in best of cases you will have to check your lights if you can go to 1/800 and still do a fill light, some systems have velocity control but i think that if you want that low velocity output you have to power up your unit pretty hard, and that reminds too much light to do a fill flash.
So after encountering with those problems time before, my only advice is light subjects perfectly, the easiest way is on camera flash, ringlight and pretty frontal kind of lightind, if you want backlight or side lighting do it accurately!!
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cesarrojo
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« Reply #36 on: April 09, 2007, 06:18:03 PM »
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Yes I know what you mean about the ghosting that appears, but what i was talking is more about the blurring that will ocurr even with no flash, because normally with no flash i use speeds of 1/500 or 1/1000 to avoid bluring due to the bike speed.


Quote
Even the hassie that syncs at 1/800 (correct me if im wrong) woudnt serve you too much in that situation.
For example: you set your lights to do a fill flash, that means low output flash is normally done, 1/1500 to up, you sync your camera to 1/800, one part of the "thing" will frozen to 1/1500 another to 1/800, the ghost image is still there.
So, in best of cases you will have to check your lights if you can go to 1/800 and still do a fill light, some systems have velocity control but i think that if you want that low velocity output you have to power up your unit pretty hard, and that reminds too much light to do a fill flash.
So after encountering with those problems time before, my only advice is light subjects perfectly, the easiest way is on camera flash, ringlight and pretty frontal kind of lightind, if you want backlight or side lighting do it accurately!!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=111577\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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yaya
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« Reply #37 on: April 10, 2007, 03:40:37 PM »
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cesarrojo,

MF cameras were never designed to handle action shots. Period.

I am not saying it is impossible to use these cameras, but it won't be as straight forward as pulling 8 frames/ sec with a snappy multi-point auto focus...

Here is an example, taken with a 11MP Leaf Valeo back, on a 553ELX with 500/f8 lens and a WLF, wide open @ 100iso...
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yaya
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« Reply #38 on: April 10, 2007, 03:43:44 PM »
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cesarrojo,

MF cameras were never designed to handle action shots. Period.

I am not saying it is impossible to use these cameras, but it won't be as straight forward as pulling 8 frames/ sec with a snappy multi-point auto focus 35mm...

Here is an example, taken with a 11MP Leaf Valeo back, on a 553ELX with 500/f8 lens and a WLF, wide open @ 100iso...that might be the other extreme...today's portable backs are much more capable with faster capture rates, built in screens and higher iso...

[attachment=2275:attachment]
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cesarrojo
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« Reply #39 on: April 10, 2007, 03:45:20 PM »
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Thanks for the input, actually my main income comes from motorsports (almost 60% shoots are static) but for action never ever use sequence, always one frame each time rider passes by... As I am not doing races its not important to miss a crash sequence or something like that.. Also if doing races sure I will take my D2x, but even with that I am not thinking on sequence because its hard to get the right frame....

Can't see the pic big size, but looks like Sete, isn't he?

Quote
cesarrojo,

MF cameras were never designed to handle action shots. Period.

I am not saying it is impossible to use these cameras, but it won't be as straight forward as pulling 8 frames/ sec with a snappy multi-point auto focus...

Here is an example, taken with a 11MP Leaf Valeo back, on a 553ELX with 500/f8 lens and a WLF, wide open @ 100iso...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=111751\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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