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Author Topic: z3100 used as a profiler for other printers  (Read 7907 times)
DHDSP
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« on: April 26, 2007, 02:48:41 AM »
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Just a crazy idea I got after profiling with the printfix pro (I just hate the stupid scanning of the pads).

Shouldn't it be possible to use the z3100 to make ICC profiles for other printers?
Somewhere I read the z3100 has a built in standart profiling solution. So...
If I could print the patches on another(!) printer EXACTLY like the z3100 does, and then let the z3100 create a profile, wouldn't that work ?

It would save tons of time, and e.g. the possibility to to use higher patch counts.

Now I only need to know where the patch-images are located , or where I can find them ...


CU
Peter
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Panascape
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« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2007, 02:54:01 AM »
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Yes, if you do not need more than 940 odd patches then APS will allow you to do this.

Robert
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DHDSP
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« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2007, 04:19:39 AM »
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Yes, if you do not need more than 940 odd patches then APS will allow you to do this.

Robert
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=114308\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Right. But I would have to buy the Advanced Profiling Solution, right ?
We already have a colorvision pack (Spyder+Prinfixpro).

WITHOUT any new software / hardware, this should still be possible, I think.

CU
Peter
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Panascape
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« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2007, 06:34:40 AM »
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Unfortunatly not as the built in profiling is a close loop solution.
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marcsitkin
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« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2007, 08:34:21 AM »
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We have used the APS to profile other printers. The profile was good, but the process was not really any faster than printing patches and reading them with an eye-one using Monaco Profiler.


Marc Sitkin
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Marc Sitkin
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DHDSP
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« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2007, 09:13:24 AM »
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Now if the APS can  print targets which are compatible wih the built in easy profiling solution, one could use APS to generate a PDF document (so no need to recreate the targets by hand) , print this pdf on a different printer, and feed the z3100 with it...

But marcsitkin is probably right. If there is no real adavantage to using manual profiling solutions, why bother.

CU
Peter
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Jim_H_WY
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« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2007, 10:11:27 AM »
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This would still be an advantage for those of us who don't own or have access to another profiling system.  So it'd have its advantages for some of us out here.

Jim H.
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Roscolo
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« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2007, 10:48:31 AM »
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This would still be an advantage for those of us who don't own or have access to another profiling system.  So it'd have its advantages for some of us out here.

Jim H.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=114367\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I could see this maybe being an advantage in the future. Perhaps I misunderstood, but I was under the impression that the Advanced Profiling Solution just added some monitor calibration software to the package. As I already have this, I never considered the APS.

If there is something more to APS, and one wanted to use the z3100 as a profiler for another printer and this would require APS, can one "upgrade" to APS at a later date?

BTW, I'm ordering my z today!
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rdonson
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« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2007, 02:23:09 PM »
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I could see this maybe being an advantage in the future. Perhaps I misunderstood, but I was under the impression that the Advanced Profiling Solution just added some monitor calibration software to the package. As I already have this, I never considered the APS.

If there is something more to APS, and one wanted to use the z3100 as a profiler for another printer and this would require APS, can one "upgrade" to APS at a later date?

BTW, I'm ordering my z today!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=114369\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I think what had been mentioned before was that with the Z3100 w/o APS you couldn't get to the target files.  That meant you couldn't use them on another printer and then read them on the Z3100 to create profiles.  

With APS you had access to the target files so that you could use them on another printer and then read them on the Z3100 to create profiles.

If I don't understand this correctly hopefully Robert or someone else will correct this.
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[span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'][span style='font-family:Arial'][span style='font-family:Geneva'][span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%']Regards,
Ron[/span][/span][/span][/span]
Panascape
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« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2007, 02:29:58 PM »
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Unfortunately you need APS to read the target as well as there is no way that I know of to get the printer to read a pre printed target without APS.
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rdonson
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« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2007, 04:42:25 PM »
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Unfortunately you need APS to read the target as well as there is no way that I know of to get the printer to read a pre printed target without APS.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=114401\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


hmmmm.... I thought that the base machine allowed you to print out a target, let it dry over night and then feed it back in.
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[span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'][span style='font-family:Arial'][span style='font-family:Geneva'][span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%']Regards,
Ron[/span][/span][/span][/span]
Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2007, 05:31:48 PM »
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hmmmm.... I thought that the base machine allowed you to print out a target, let it dry over night and then feed it back in.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Correct, but you need at least the target's RGB data, the shape and how it is aligned to the spectrometer in the printer to print the targets on another printer and have it measured on the Z3100. That also doesn't take care of the underlying calibrations of both printers and how the Z3100 calibration may be used in the profile creation on the Z3100 while the profile will actually be used on the other (uncalibrated or calibrated differently) printer. I also wonder whether different inksets will have an influence, the Z3100 profile creation may have some tweaks to get the CMmYRGB ink hues of the Z3100 in harmony, it could work different for a normal CcMmY set.

Just some theoretical cons that may not be a problem in practice.

Ernst Dinkla

try:  [a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/]http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/[/url]
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chris anderson
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« Reply #12 on: April 26, 2007, 05:34:16 PM »
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hmmmm.... I thought that the base machine allowed you to print out a target, let it dry over night and then feed it back in.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=114423\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


it does but the target it stored in the printers harddrive i believe, and cannot be accessed by any other means except through the hp program
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rdonson
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« Reply #13 on: April 26, 2007, 07:59:53 PM »
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it does but the target it stored in the printers harddrive i believe, and cannot be accessed by any other means except through the hp program
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=114430\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

That's what I thought whereas with APS you have access to the targets.
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[span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'][span style='font-family:Arial'][span style='font-family:Geneva'][span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%']Regards,
Ron[/span][/span][/span][/span]
rdonson
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« Reply #14 on: April 26, 2007, 08:00:49 PM »
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Correct, but you need at least the target's RGB data, the shape and how it is aligned to the spectrometer in the printer to print the targets on another printer and have it measured on the Z3100. That also doesn't take care of the underlying calibrations of both printers and how the Z3100 calibration may be used in the profile creation on the Z3100 while the profile will actually be used on the other (uncalibrated or calibrated differently) printer. I also wonder whether different inksets will have an influence, the Z3100 profile creation may have some tweaks to get the CMmYRGB ink hues of the Z3100 in harmony, it could work different for a normal CcMmY set.

Just some theoretical cons that may not be a problem in practice.

Ernst Dinkla

try:  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=114429\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Good points, Ernst.
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[span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'][span style='font-family:Arial'][span style='font-family:Geneva'][span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%']Regards,
Ron[/span][/span][/span][/span]
DHDSP
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« Reply #15 on: April 27, 2007, 03:27:45 AM »
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Correct, but you need at least the target's RGB data, the shape and how it is aligned to the spectrometer in the printer to print the targets on another printer and have it measured on the Z3100. That also doesn't take care of the underlying calibrations of both printers and how the Z3100 calibration may be used in the profile creation on the Z3100 while the profile will actually be used on the other (uncalibrated or calibrated differently) printer. I also wonder whether different inksets will have an influence, the Z3100 profile creation may have some tweaks to get the CMmYRGB ink hues of the Z3100 in harmony, it could work different for a normal CcMmY set.

Just some theoretical cons that may not be a problem in practice.

I see. Now, to get practical, all we (I) need is a target file from APS which is compatible to the standart z3100 target. If not in JPG then printed eg. printed to pdf or as postscript to a size that could be printed by other printers like eg. A3

Or, and this would mean the most work, scan the original target, vectorize it, and use the rgb numbers (in the other thread about profiling) to fill the patches.

Then we could just try and see if it worked, right ?

CU
Peter
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Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #16 on: April 27, 2007, 05:26:12 AM »
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I see. Now, to get practical, all we (I) need is a target file from APS which is compatible to the standart z3100 target. If not in JPG then printed eg. printed to pdf or as postscript to a size that could be printed by other printers like eg. A3

Or, and this would mean the most work, scan the original target, vectorize it, and use the rgb numbers (in the other thread about profiling) to fill the patches.

Then we could just try and see if it worked, right ?

CU
Peter
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

If you go back in the thread you can read that it has been done by someone with APS and he thought it was more hassle than using a third party profiler. But when APS becomes better and better with the upgrades it should be an interesting method. I think the basic profiling on the Z3100 is too limited for profiling other printers. My vote would be to add targets to APS with really high patch numbers covering the width of 36" rolls on the 44" model or 24" rolls on the smaller model.  There's no substitute for automated reading when you go beyond 700 patches. I also think that the N-color printers need more patches. The Atkinson profiles for the Epson range made it clear that even for RGB profiles on CcMmYKk printers patch numbers count. If APS gets that at this price I would say spend that money as the basics in the Z3100 hardware are better than in Print Fix Pro II. Any other third party profiling software + hardware worth mentioning is way more expensive, not to mention the spectrometer scan versions. HP has a winner if they develop it to its optimum quality. You can print any target from any printer and let it dry and let the Z3100 scan the target in the idle hours. Wonder whether you would be interested in the other printer's prints when the Z3100 is around :-)

Expressing my gut feelings this time.


Ernst Dinkla

try: [a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/]http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/[/url]
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adiallo
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« Reply #17 on: April 27, 2007, 06:13:11 AM »
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In addition to Ernst's fine comments let's not forget that ideally you'd want to calibrate/linearize your printer BEFORE you print and measure a profile target. On the HPs (at least with the basic setup) you cannot reload a calibration target for measurement later on. The caibration target will always be measured automatically as soon as the built-in drydown period elapses.
So while you can print a profiling target and re-load it hours, days or weeks later for measurement, the calibration measurement is really a closed loop solution. Now, if you have alternate means to calibrate the non-HP machine that would mean you have a hand-held spectro and measurment software, so the ability to profile that machine via the HP wouldn't seem to be that attractive.
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rdonson
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« Reply #18 on: April 27, 2007, 07:04:03 AM »
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In addition to Ernst's fine comments let's not forget that ideally you'd want to calibrate/linearize your printer BEFORE you print and measure a profile target. On the HPs (at least with the basic setup) you cannot reload a calibration target for measurement later on. The caibration target will always be measured automatically as soon as the built-in drydown period elapses.
So while you can print a profiling target and re-load it hours, days or weeks later for measurement, the calibration measurement is really a closed loop solution. Now, if you have alternate means to calibrate the non-HP machine that would mean you have a hand-held spectro and measurment software, so the ability to profile that machine via the HP wouldn't seem to be that attractive.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=114518\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


This is all quite true.  Still.... there are numerous friends with Epson 2200, 2400, etc. printers that have no means of calibrating or linearizing their printers.  They currently buy custom printer/paper profiles based on printing standard targets.  It would seem that using the Z3100 in a similar fashion wouldn't produce poorer profiles for them.
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[span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'][span style='font-family:Arial'][span style='font-family:Geneva'][span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%']Regards,
Ron[/span][/span][/span][/span]
adiallo
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« Reply #19 on: April 27, 2007, 09:43:30 AM »
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Ron, I see your point. And I can certainly understand the temptation to get as much value out of the built-in spectro as possible by treating the HP as an automated patch reader, a vey big DTP if you will.
But in order to measure a profile target with the HP you have to associate it with either a new or current paper, which triggers, among other things ink limiting,  maximum density and linearity goals. Now if you choose a new/custom paper, the printer will have to output and measure a calibration target. Obviously this can't come from the desktop Epsons. So then you're measuring a profile target whose L numbers may be way way off what the measurment software expects. What would the ramifications be? How well does the on-board profiling software deal with large variations? Because this is in essence a closed profiling system, I don't know.
My instincts (and this is pure speculation) would say that since the HP system is designed around a calibration step which brings printer behavior into a pre-determined optimum state, that there must be a significant benefit as far as the profiling software goes, to receiving data points within a fairly reasonable tolerance range. Third-party profiling solutions are, on the other hand designed expressly for a wide range of inkjet printer models, in various states of performance. IMHO there are too many potential pitfalls  in using the on-board profiling software outside of the uses for which it was designed.
Overly cautious? Perhaps. But we've all got years of experience to remind us how tough it can be just to get products to do what they are advertised to do. So I try to keep my expectations for non-supported behavior to a mimumum  .
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