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Author Topic: My first wide formatt printer? 3100?  (Read 9432 times)
One Frame at a Time
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« on: April 27, 2007, 12:28:17 PM »
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Hi,

I was super exited to see the release of the Canon 5000 and HP 3100 some months ago and thought that "my ship" had finally arrived.  I have been using some variation of 13 inch printers since Epson first released their 5 color printers.  I have been waiting patiently to take the plunge into a 17 or 24 inch and thought the time had finally arrived.  

The recent issues with the 5000 and 3100 series are giving me pause.  Could anyone give me some feed back on whether I should pull the trigger now or wait?  ( I have been waiting 2 or 3 years...)  I am not a pro, have sold a few prints but is not my livelyhood.
I could wait until I am old and grey (nearly there now) but what fun would that be??

I have specific concerns:  I print on Matte Paper to frame behind glass.  Its not too $$ at 13 inch and the dyes need protection.  With really large prints I wonder if the glass and mat get too expensive??  I am thinking I will wind up printing on Glossy more often to save on framing and since the longevity is so much better?  Secondly, I travel a good deal and the printer could be idle for 3 or 4 months at a time.  (I could keep it in my basement that is cool at around 60 degrees F.)  Your thoughts and feedback are much appreciated.

Best,

Paul
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Avalan
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« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2007, 01:36:14 PM »
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Hi Paul

Since you have already read the reviews these are some short answers :

Epson 3800 or Canon IPF5000 or HP Z3100 , are all top of the line for image quality and you will not go wrong with either of them.  The differences are about the size , having or not having the roll feed unit , cost of the printer , cost of the consumables , support and warranty for consumables , longevity of the prints , speed and other differences of this nature.
This is a brief answer :

If most of your prints are 17" and under , then either 3800 or 5000 are the choice :
3800 is smaller and compact and better for smaller space.
5000 has roll feeder and if you need it, this the choice. Also cheaper for ink cost.

You may need Z3100-24" if you are mostly printing over 17".  It is a great printer . just needs to realize that it does not have the convenience of cassette and might not be practical for small prints . It's designed for big prints and heavy usage.

Check the reviews in this regard and find out which one suits your needs better.

Regards
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One Frame at a Time
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« Reply #2 on: April 27, 2007, 01:59:23 PM »
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Hi Paul

Since you have already read the reviews these are some short answers :

Epson 3800 or Canon IPF5000 or HP Z3100 , are all top of the line for image quality and you will not go wrong with either of them.  The differences are about the size , having or not having the roll feed unit , cost of the printer , cost of the consumables , support and warranty for consumables , longevity of the prints , speed and other differences of this nature.
This is a brief answer :

If most of your prints are 17" and under , then either 3800 or 5000 are the choice :
3800 is smaller and compact and better for smaller space.
5000 has roll feeder and if you need it, this the choice. Also cheaper for ink cost.

You may need Z3100-24" if you are mostly printing over 17".  It is a great printer . just needs to realize that it does not have the convenience of cassette and might not be practical for small prints . It's designed for big prints and heavy usage.

Check the reviews in this regard and find out which one suits your needs better.

Regards
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=114590\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Avalan,

Thanks for the reply.  I was thinking newer would be better, but sounds like there are some very unhappy owners of the 5000 and the 3100 has a problems with reds??  Not sure if that is still the case for the 3100 but I am reading lots of flaming on the canon service response (or lack thereof).  The Epson 3800 is older and I thought that it is prone to clogging in situations when it is used almost daily.  In my situation I thought that was going to be a real problem.  Some time ago the Desk Jet 130 was recommended to me but the new printers were on the horizon....  

Just not sure what to do.  I am tired of waiting but do not want to take the plunge only to have a bunch of headaches and frustration.  As it is, my Epson 1270 fires up and works every time.  I would love the bigger output and quality that the new printers are supposed to offer if I was sure that was what I was buying.

Paul
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Avalan
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« Reply #3 on: April 27, 2007, 02:14:08 PM »
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Paul

Can't comment on 3800.
For 5000 , recommend to read the following link if you have not seen it yet.

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/...00-report.shtml

Having a trouble free 5000, and having a great and supportive reseller , I don't regret buying it. in the meantime there have been concerns well discussed in above link.

All what I can say is when you made up your mind about any printer, buy it from a reputable reseller . You can find a list of them here :

http://canonipf5000.wikispaces.com/

Good luck
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Colourcurve
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« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2007, 02:49:17 PM »
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Hi

If you want to wait there will be a 24" version of the Canon ipf5000 in June.

I would avoid the HP130 as it is a pain to operate and is not very reliable and slow - nice quality though.

The Canon 5000 is excellent and not as unreliable as most will have you believe.

The Z3100 is a fine printer - the red issue is 90% fixed with the latest firmware - still a little behind Canon but it has a wider gamut in other areas so it's not a big deal in the real world.  another firmware update to go the last 10% is in progress.
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John Hollenberg
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« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2007, 04:11:53 PM »
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The Canon 5000 is excellent and not as unreliable as most will have you believe.

I wouldn't classify the iPF5000 as unreliable at all.  Once any initial problems get fixed, the printer appears to be bulletproof.  Aside from roll feed units breaking down, there hasn't been a single report to the Wiki of printers functioning properly at first, then causing problems later.  

What is unreliable in some cases is the service (only if you have a non-standard problem with image quality), and the roll feed units from the early batch (which have a design defect and consequently a high percentage of failures).  Since you don't know if you will be getting a roll feed unit with the redesigned gears, this part is a bit of a crap shoot.

--John
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dkeyes
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« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2007, 08:09:32 PM »
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I'm an artist and print my own photographs. I'm very picky about my work and have been waiting for 7+ years to get my printer (z3100). The technology actually matured with the 7800/9800 Epson printers but I waited when I found out about the HP/Canon printers. All three are good enough for any discerning artist/photographer. If your matching a scanned painting or doing prepress work, each printer has pro/cons. The issues on the z3100 are minor and most people wouldn't notice the very minor red issues unless they are matching specific pantone reds or have a certain red dominant image that was previously printed on another device. For the 3 or 4 vocal people on this forum that complain about the z3100, there are many more that are satisfied with it. (everyone wants the elusive perfect printer/image) I'm not one of those people who read or care about ink limits, dmax, gamut, etc. what matters is the final image.

Regarding pricing concerns, don't buy a 24" printer if your worried about pinching pennies. Paper and ink isn't cheap but for what you can do it's a steal compared to having a lab print your work.
A good paper runs $1 a sqft (or more sometimes) and ink is around .50 cents ml. With the z3100, you could print a 24"x24" image for around $5-9 including nice paper.

Hope this helps and good luck,
Doug
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One Frame at a Time
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« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2007, 08:34:01 PM »
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Many thanks everyone.  Really a great forum for serious imagers!  I may just go ahead and go for the 3100.  The built in calibration hardware seems to be the clincher for me.  If the Red scare is just another McCarthy era worry I can deal with that!  

Always one to pinch pennies, I have digested vast number of pages on image matching, color calibration etc.  I just want to get on with life and see on the paper what I see on my screen!  I used to spend $300 bucks to custom print an image  16x 20 and have it mounted on foam core.  This was 10+ years ago.  The digital darkroom is just an amazing thing.  Like having Buck Rodgers land in your living room (I am not THAT old, but you get the point).  The big format printer will be the final installment of my digital darkroom fantasy.  Any further follow ups or opinions much appreciated.  Like I said, I need a printer that will not clog after prolonged dis-use.

Many thanks,

Paul
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dkeyes
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« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2007, 01:18:39 AM »
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Many thanks everyone.  Really a great forum for serious imagers!  I may just go ahead and go for the 3100.  The built in calibration hardware seems to be the clincher for me.  If the Red scare is just another McCarthy era worry I can deal with that! 

Always one to pinch pennies, I have digested vast number of pages on image matching, color calibration etc.  I just want to get on with life and see on the paper what I see on my screen!  I used to spend $300 bucks to custom print an image  16x 20 and have it mounted on foam core.  This was 10+ years ago.  The digital darkroom is just an amazing thing.  Like having Buck Rodgers land in your living room (I am not THAT old, but you get the point).  The big format printer will be the final installment of my digital darkroom fantasy.  Any further follow ups or opinions much appreciated.  Like I said, I need a printer that will not clog after prolonged dis-use.

Many thanks,

Paul
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=114637\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Oh, I forgot to mention, my printer often goes for a month or longer without printing. I just leave it on so it does it's self calibrating thing and keeps the heads from clogging. No problems so far, and it uses very little energy.
- Doug
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Geoff Wittig
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« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2007, 11:12:26 AM »
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Just my 2 cents-
I have been printing on an Epson 7600 for more than 4 years now, and the thing just keeps on going. I live in a relatively damp part of the world (rural western New York state), and I believe this is why I have yet to see a single head clog, despite sometimes going up to a month without printing. If you are printing predominantly on matte or fine art papers with matte black ink, then the difference in output quality between the 7600 and the newer 7800 is basically nil. My standard large print is a 20x30" inside a 24x36" frame ($49 US at Michael's on sale!). My wife, God bless her, taught herself matte cutting and expertly mats & frames my photos.

You may be able to pick up a 7600 cheap as people move up to the newer generation of printers. It's built like an anvil and I've never had anything break on it. I have to confess that I'll be buying an HP 3100 soon as I've been lusting after the deep D-max on satin/luster papers for my B&W prints, though I'm keeping the 7600 because color prints from it on cotton rag paper are really excellent and entirely competitive with newer machines.
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Avalan
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« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2007, 08:44:29 PM »
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Paul

A few more words.  Will try to explain what I have posted above , with a bit more detail :

A  -" Epson 3800 or Canon IPF5000 or HP Z3100 , are all top of the line for image quality and you will not go wrong with either of them." :

Guess it was the year 2002 when I saw some professional prints made by Epson 2100. Couldn't believe a small desktop printer can print such a nice and quality picture . and it was the time that I understood big changes are on the way for printing industry.  It has been several years from that observation and just in last few years , the progress on inkjet industry has been more amazing.
When you pass your initial set up and cost and learning curve with either of above printers , then the result is priceless.
For decades I have used pay to print labs . Not anymore. It is a great feeling to have a full control over your workflow. It is you and just you who knows what you have seen and how you want it printed.  you will Also have access to hundreds of different media and your final cost will be  less expensive for your prints after your initial set up. And you can not go wrong with either of the mentioned printers.  The only question would be which one suits you better.

B -  Have had experience with Epson printers . Not used 3800 so no comment on this model . It is a nice printer , with lots of happy users which will recommend it to you.

C - For Canon 5000 , it has been a good choice for me and still would be the choice  for a 17" printer even if I did not have it.
Then why did not recommend it to you if I'm happy with mine ?   because of all of what have been discussed in detail by John Hollenberg's review.
This is a professional , detailed and fair review and I agree with its content. Some people may see it negative . I see it positive and informative .  If every printer had a wiki similar to the unofficial 5000 ,  would be great for users . John Hollenberg has managed and organized this wiki  and it is a very helpful and supportive site. If it happened buying a 5000 , you will have lots of support of all kind from wiki participants.

D - "You may need Z3100-24" if you are mostly printing over 17". It is a great printer . just needs to realize that it does not have the convenience of cassette and might not be practical for small prints . It's designed for big prints and heavy usage."

Assuming Z-3100 is one of the best printers ever made , have ordered one and will be up and running in a few weeks.
But still I will stand by the above comment :  It does not have the convenience of Epson3800 or Canon5000 for smaller prints or sheets . It has been designed for big prints.

E -   "when you made up your mind about any printer, buy it from a reputable reseller "

If you don't want to have a unpleasant experience of buying from a funny reseller , buy it from somewhere with a good reputation of service and knowledge . This is very important , regardless of which brand or model you are buying . These are some of the reputable resellers or paper /ink suppliers with great reputation.   The links are listed by alphabetical order. You can get more advise about your specific questions from them , as well .

http://booksmartstudio.com/
http://www.colorhq.com/
http://itsupplies.com/
http://shadesofpaper.com/

Regards - Avalan
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sceptacon
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« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2007, 04:38:23 AM »
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I'm having trouble finding a place to buy a Z printer here in Australia and was wondering if it would be worthwhile purchasing from a U.S vendor online and having it sent across. can this be done and would I save money or end up spending more and encounter problems?
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One Frame at a Time
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« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2007, 09:38:03 AM »
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Paul

A few more words.  Will try to explain what I have posted above , with a bit more detail :
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=114794\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Avalan,  

Thanks again!  Really appreciate your assistance.  I am sure I'd be happy with any of them if they did not clog.  Heck, I am still occasionally dumbstruck by the output of my 1270 (Yeah, I'll admit it)!  The whole concept of having my own color darkroom (I had my own wet B&W many years ago) is a dream come true.  

What makes this so hard: is that for me, selecting a wide printer is like selecting a wife, never having met or talked to the woman.  Or chosing the only type of wine you will drink for the next 10 or 15 years; never having tasted the wine, only listened to others opinion.  Its a hefty investment with no test drive.  Its not likely I will need to replace this printer because of wearing it out.  Heck, my 1270 is still going strong,although it makes more noise that it used to I think.  

As for the particulars, the lack of a tray is not a concern.  The 1270 does not have a tray.  I rarely make more than a couple of the same images at a time.  As for 24 inch, it would be nice but not sure how often I need 24 inch.  Seems to me like I would use it if I had it.  The thing that attracts me to the 3100 is the internal color profiling.  I HATE wasting paper and ink!  Makes me crazy.  The published waste during cleaning or ink swapping from some of the Epson printers seems excessive and would ruin my ownership experience I think.  Trying to figure out how the others stack up in the self cleaning (or need for cleaning) department.

One question about the papers you print on:  I am always surprised to hear so many pros printing on glossy papers.  I can understand weddings and the like since they go into an album.  Do fine art prints on glossy just get matted and framed without glass??  If going behind glass I always thought Matte was the paper of choice.

Best,


Paul
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One Frame at a Time
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« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2007, 09:55:41 AM »
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Just my 2 cents-
I have been printing on an Epson 7600 for more than 4 years now, and the thing just keeps on going. I live in a relatively damp part of the world (rural western New York state), and I believe this is why I have yet to see a single head clog, despite sometimes going up to a month without printing. If you are printing predominantly on matte or fine art papers with matte black ink, then the difference in output quality between the 7600 and the newer 7800 is basically nil. My standard large print is a 20x30" inside a 24x36" frame ($49 US at Michael's on sale!). My wife, God bless her, taught herself matte cutting and expertly mats & frames my photos.

You may be able to pick up a 7600 cheap as people move up to the newer generation of printers. It's built like an anvil and I've never had anything break on it. I have to confess that I'll be buying an HP 3100 soon as I've been lusting after the deep D-max on satin/luster papers for my B&W prints, though I'm keeping the 7600 because color prints from it on cotton rag paper are really excellent and entirely competitive with newer machines.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=114724\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thanks Geoff,

I have been buying my frames from Michaels too for some time now.  I still have stock but I was paying 20 bucks (on sale) for 11X16 double cut mat in a 20x24 frame with glass!
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Avalan
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« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2007, 11:35:16 AM »
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sceptacon

Don't think it will be a good idea , for the following reasons :
The extra reabate of $1000 + $300 free paper ,  is available just in US.
So you will be paying about $4000 USD+ extra shipping cost ,  and no extra cash back for rebate .  The link below has all the details.
http://www.hp.com/united-states/tradein/pr...reme/terms.html

Buying from US , you will not have service Warranty.
Hp Australia will not give you service  , if the printer has been purchased out of Australia .   This is what I understand. You may want to check on this with HP Australia.
As a general rule for any hardware , I guess the better choice is buying it from the country you are living in , to avoid complications of service issues.

Regards - Avalan
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Avalan
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« Reply #15 on: April 29, 2007, 11:42:18 AM »
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Paul

Please take whatever I have written , as a personal choices of a photographer and hobbyist.  consulting in purchase is not my area . Just want to share the experience , hoping it might be helpful.

About what you wrote :

A - "What makes this so hard: is that for me, selecting a wide printer is like selecting a wife, never having met or talked to the woman. Or choosing the only type of wine you will drink for the next 10 or 15 years; never having tasted the wine, only listened to others opinion. Its a hefty investment with no test drive. Its not likely I will need to replace this printer because of wearing it out. Heck, my 1270 is still going strong,although it makes more noise that it used to I think."

Completely understandable .  What I can say is you will be happy with either of the printers.  Your best partner will be somebody YOU will feel is the best one for you and the best wine , would be the one which you taste it good and enjoy it with your partner and have a good time. Consider the rest just a myth.


B-  "As for the particulars, the lack of a tray is not a concern. The 1270 does not have a tray. I rarely make more than a couple of the same images at a time. As for 24 inch, it would be nice but not sure how often I need 24 inch. Seems to me like I would use it if I had it. The thing that attracts me to the 3100 is the internal color profiling. I HATE wasting paper and ink! Makes me crazy. The published waste during cleaning or ink swapping from some of the Epson printers seems excessive and would ruin my ownership experience I think. Trying to figure out how the others stack up in the self cleaning (or need for cleaning) department."

If not printing large sizes that often , there is no need for a 24" printer . It is really big and more costly.  All 24" printers are designed for large prints and heavy use.  Put it this way : There are lots of nice SUVs in the market .  but probably you will find it a better choice to drive a regular car in the city. SUVs are meant for outdoors . You really don't need it for a daily driving in the city.


C-  About head clogs and swapping inks on Epsons : These are major issues with previous Epsons . Don't worry about it for 3800 . Still may have clogs . Don't remember seeing many complaints about it. and wasting the ink for cleaning has been minimized .
I will consider these annoying but not a deal breaker . And all of the printers have their own issues anyways. And Epson's canned profiles coming with the printer are very good . For other papers and serious one you need to make a custom profile anyways. For Epson or any other printer. And it can be done using professional profile making services . Each profile will cost $40 - $100 dollars . Guess most of users are doing this .  Probably sometime soon we will see 17' printers will all have profile making built on them like Z series . But if you wait for this kind of improvements  , you will never be able to buy ANYTHING.  Improvements are ongoing nature of instruments we are using . Don't worry about it too much.

D- One question about the papers you print on: I am always surprised to hear so many pros printing on glossy papers. I can understand weddings and the like since they go into an album. Do fine art prints on glossy just get matted and framed without glass?? If going behind glass I always thought Matte was the paper of choice.

Well ,  printing on Matte or Gloss etc , is a another personal choice of everybody including pros . As a general rule you will have more color vibrance when printing on gloss  compare to Matte papers.  Two issues to be addressed here :
1-  Printing with any pigment ink on gloss or semigloss , always you will get some gloss differential . This is shortcoming of pigment inks . HP Z series has gloss enhancer and better in this regard but not completely eliminated .  Guess better solutions for resolving the gloss differential are on the way and we will see it in the future. Not yet
2 - You can frame any print without the glass. specially when you want to have the pleasure of seeing the picture without annoyance of reflection of the glass.  The draw back is longevity . not having a glass will let the picture to be exposed to all air born gases and heat and will reduce the life time of the print big time .  Still you can use protective sprays to give a better protection , if not using glassed frames . there are lots of different protective sprays in the market. some are water based with no effect on the original appearance of the picture.

Regards - Avalan
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One Frame at a Time
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« Reply #16 on: May 02, 2007, 10:42:38 AM »
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Called Epson and HP today to ask them about how the printers will hold up if not used for a prolonged period.  HP is getting back to me but the Epson tech told me that the 3800 does not have any sort of wake up and purge, or test-clean built into it.  You have to do this manually.  Kind of thinking this might put it out of the running.  From what I have read in the past these pigment based printers need to be cycled to run properly.

On the Canon, I am very much put off by the complaints about thier customer service.  

Will post some more when I get the feed back from HP.

Best,

Paul
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« Reply #17 on: May 02, 2007, 10:57:54 AM »
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After 12 years I've owned about 15 printers, and I can tell you that the HP large formats have had less issues with nozzel clogs than any of the Piezo head machines. The Hp 5000's I bought in 2000 are still working well today, and I've only replaced the belts twice in each machine. Heads last almost a year under moderate use.

If you are an occasional user, I think that the HP's would be easier for you. Because the heads can easily be changed, if you do get a clog, it won't cost you a fortune to fix it. Stick to the HP ink, don't mess with third party supplies, and enjoy printing!

Marc Sitkin
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Regards,

Marc Sitkin
www.digitalmomentum.com
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« Reply #18 on: May 04, 2007, 12:24:08 AM »
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1-  Printing with any pigment ink on gloss or semigloss , always you will get some gloss differential . This is shortcoming of pigment inks . HP Z series has gloss enhancer and better in this regard but not completely eliminated .  Guess better solutions for resolving the gloss differential are on the way and we will see it in the future. Not yet
Regards - Avalan
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=114881\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
[/quote]
I've been printing my and others most demanding prints for gloss differential on the new HP Pro Satin on the z3100 and there is no gloss differential. Looks the closest to a traditional c-print I've ever seen from an ink jet printer. So far this is the best paper, ink, printer combo I've used in the last 7 years.
- Doug
ps. One caveat, I haven't had the chance to use any of the new Canon printers. But all the Epson and many HP printers.
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« Reply #19 on: May 04, 2007, 10:15:08 AM »
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Here is how things are stacking up for  me:

The HP and the Canon seem almost evenly matched.  Both have their pros and cons.  To the point where its almost a toss-up.  The HP with the built in profile capability really seems to be a key feature the others lack.  That said, at 143 pounds the thing is a beast.  The canon at 100 pounds is no lightweight either.....I knew that they were big but did not really understand how big (always read the fine print!).

That leads me to the Epson 3800.  At 40 pounds it is way more managble in my home environment, even though I do have room for the others.  I have concerns about prolonged lack of use.  Epson has no wake-up feature that would cycle the heads.  They rely on an airtight seal and seem to place all their faith in that solution.  Time will tell I guess.  During long trips I can move the unit into our cool basement.  Maybe  I could connect the printer to a timer that will power up the printer (not turn it on) and it will cycle and go off again?  (If anyone knows if this is plausable please post). Not possible for me to move the others easily.

As an aside, HP has altered thier rebate promotion on the z3100 to include 13inch format printers for the $1,000 rebate and the $500 paper deal.  Not too shabby.  If it was not 140 pounds I probably would have bought one.  The paper profiling really apeals to me.

Many, Many thanks for all the responses to my post.


Best,

Paul
paulsgallery.smugmug.com
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