Ad
Ad
Ad
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 5 »   Bottom of Page
Print
Author Topic: HP dishonestly ripped us off  (Read 16841 times)
marty m
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 335


WWW
« on: April 28, 2007, 07:19:26 AM »
ReplyReply

Revision on May 9:

THE PREMISE OF THIS THREAD HAS NOW BEEN SUPPORTED AND VINDICATED.  SEE THE SEPARATE THREAD "Z3100 Rebate PS Version INCLUDED!!!!"

Skip over the endless debates in the middle of this thread about whether the rebate applies to the PS model.  It does.  Even though those who made that argument are still arguing the same point in other threads.

The bottom-line conclusion for consumers of HP products, and a disturbing conclusion for wholesalers, resellers and vendors of HP products who must commit financial resources and floor space to stock HP products:

DO NOT BUY ANY HP PRODUCTS IN THE FIRST THREE OR FOUR MONTHS, AND WAIT FOR THE PRICE TO DROP.  THOSE WHO BUY IN THE FIRST 60 DAYS WILL BE SCREWED AND LOSE $800 BASED ON THE EXAMPLE OF THE 3100

****************

Anyone who purchased a separate Z3100 in the last three months was ripped off and cheated by HP.  If you were a big enough sucker to buy the Z3100 and the APS separately, you were ripped off and cheated twice over.  Read on . . .

Several postings on the the other thread on the Advanced Profiling Solution (APS) for the HP Z3100 are reporting that a new model has been released -- the Z3100PS.  The pricing is very aggressive, so that you can now buy a Z3100 along with both the RIP and the APS for the price previously paid for a Z3100 alone.

I am posting this new thread to underscore that those of us who purchased a Z3100 less than two months ago were ripped off and cheated by HP.

I searched the HP web site for a reference to the APS.  It was previously posted as a separate item selling for about $800.  

Guess what?  It is no longer listed.  

That's how HP has reacted to the severe criticism on this forum that the APS was significantly overpriced.  The other criticism made of the APS is that it should have been included with the printer from the very start and not cost an additional $800.

Well, that is exactly what they have done.  HP has decided to sell a new model with the APS and RIP included.  Some postings have pointed out that HP has higher list price (about $1000 more) for the new PS model on their own web site.

So what?  That is the manufacturer's suggested list price.  It is common for discounters and everyone else to sell for 25% less than that.  Since many HP authorized resellers are selling the PS model for $3900 to $4000, it is clear that HP has aggressively priced the new PS model at the wholesale level, allowing retail dealers to sell the new PS model for the price of the previously separate Z3100 model.

The separate APS?  It is clearly a thing of the past.  Gone.  No longer listed anywhere on the HP web site, at least not that I could find.  The APS was previously listed as an accessory for the Z3100 -- and it was included in all lists of accessories on the web sites.  It is gone and no longer listed at all.  It is now included in the printer.

So if you paid roughly $4000 to $4200 for the separate Z3100, you missed out on the APS.  You could have received both for the same price.  

You're the suckers stuck with the appropriately named Easy Software.  I want you all to enjoy knowing that you missed out on the more advanced APS profiling system.  If that makes you angry -- as it should -- protest to HP.

If you paid roughly $4800 to $5000 for the Z3100 and the APS you paid $800 too much in order to obtain the APS.

The obvious rebuttal to the above is that prices always drop after the release of a product.  Early adapters always pay a higher price.  Prices always drop later.

But can anyone recall such a significant drop in the price for such an expensive product and in less than two months?

HP is clearly reading this forum.  But their solution has been to significantly drop the price of the printer -- and eliminate the separate APS all together --  so that the APS is, in fact, now included as part of the printer.

Yes, HP responded to the criticism on this forum.

But in the process they cheated every early adapter who bought the Z3100 when it was first released.  That is the delicious and profound irony.  We posted our comments.  HP responded.  And we all lost $800 as a result.

More importantly, HP cheated every one of you who were loyal early customers, and reported on the many early problems with the Z3100 and APS.

Those of you who spent hundreds of hours testing and posting on Z3100 problems, and working with the staff in Spain, it is all of who have been mistreated to the greatest extent.  (Unless HP already gave you the APS for free.)

Those of us who bought either the printer or the printer and the APS just lost $800 in the process.  

There is a sucker born every minute.  Unfortunately, EVERYONE on this forum who bought the Z3100 and/or the APS qualifies in that category.

************

A later addition, resulting from points made further down in this thread:

(1)  The early adopter argument does not apply.  The first units, such as BluRay, always cost more, and the second generation units cost less.  But first generation units are not cut by $800 in the first 60 days, thereby screwing everyone who bought the first units.  Because if that was the norm, it inevitably leads to the next conclusion:

(2)  There is a clear warning and lesson for all us.  Namely:

DO NOT BUY ANY HP PRODUCTS IN THE FIRST THREE OR FOUR MONTHS, AND WAIT FOR THE PRICE TO DROP.

HP will be really popular with retailers and wholesalers if consumers come to that conclusion, and millions of dollars of inventory sit in warehouses for the first three or four months, and nothing is sold.

But that is the only and most obvious conclusion to how HP has treated us.  Again, based on the fact that a large number of retailers are selling the printer and APS in a package for the previous price of the printer alone.  And based on the fact that the APS has disappeared from the HP web pages as a recommended accessory.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2007, 07:59:45 AM by marty m » Logged
rdonson
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1421


WWW
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2007, 07:57:34 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote
I searched the HP web site for a reference to the APS.  It was previously posted as a separate item selling for about $800. 

Guess what?  It is no longer listed. 

[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[a href=\"http://h30267.www3.hp.com/country/us/en/products/large_format/Z2100/solutions/advanced_profiling_solution.html]HP APS[/url]


I can't find it for sale anywhere on the HP site(s) but I can't say why.  Have you seen any announcement from HP that its been withdrawn or now included with the Z?  If so, please share that info.
Logged

[span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'][span style='font-family:Arial'][span style='font-family:Geneva'][span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%']Regards,
Ron[/span][/span][/span][/span]
marty m
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 335


WWW
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2007, 08:34:51 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote
HP APS
I can't find it for sale anywhere on the HP site(s) but I can't say why.  Have you seen any announcement from HP that its been withdrawn or now included with the Z?  If so, please share that info.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=114700\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
See the above posting.

Fact:  The Z3100 with APS included is now widely listed for sale by retailers for the original price of the Z3100 without the APS

Fact:  Those who bought the separate Z3100 only one or two months ago could have bought it for the same price with the APS included had they waited until now.  

In other words, if HP had received ZERO sales and ZERO market share in the first two months, and if we had all waited until now to buy the printer, then we would have all been treated equally by HP.

Fact:  The APS as a separate accessory was widely listed on the various web pages of HP.  Now it appears to be completely gone.

Those who bought the APS separately were cheated out of every dollar they paid for the APS since had they waited only 30 to 60 days,  they wouldn't even need to buy the APS separately

If you want to an official explanation, call HP.  Not that it will do you any good.

HP won't admit that they ripped off and cheated every one of their early and loyal customers.

This is a worse record -- a significantly worse record -- than Canon or any other retailer.  To do this to us only 30 to 60 days after the Z3100 went on sale is unpardonable and constitutes the worst form of retail behavior.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2007, 09:06:47 AM by marty m » Logged
Fred Ragland
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 155


WWW
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2007, 08:43:32 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote
Anyone who purchased a separate Z3100 in the last three months was ripped off and cheated by HP.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=114696\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
So Marty, tell us who you are.  You clearly sound upset, but so are all HP's competitors in the large format printer race.

Cordially,

Fred Ragland
Logged
marty m
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 335


WWW
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2007, 08:47:05 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote
So Marty, tell us who you are.  You clearly sound upset, but so are all HP's competitors in the large format printer race.

Cordially,

Fred Ragland
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=114703\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
And why shouldn't I sound upset?  Fred, I assume you didn't buy the Z3100 or APS for the previous prices or you'd be upset as well.  Unless, of course, you just have money to burn.

I am employed in an unrelated field and for an entirely unrelated type of business.  I am not associated with, employed for or have any relationship with photography, graphic arts, printing, computers, computer hardware, software or any field remotely related to HP.  My comments are my own, as a consumer, and have no connection or relationship with my employer.  I bought the Z3100 for my own private use as a consumer.

So, Fred, what line of work are you in, since by inference you are defending HP?

Fred, instead of pointing at me, maybe you should comment on HP's record of conduct with those who bought their printer upon its release in the first two months.  I am not the issue.

The issue is HP.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2007, 09:00:36 AM by marty m » Logged
SeanPuckett
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 245


WWW
« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2007, 09:07:07 AM »
ReplyReply

If there's no longer a plain-jane z3100 product on offer and you can only get a z3100 with APS and/or some other bit of software, then the only sensible thing for HP to do is to upgrade us early-bird purchasers.  AFAIK all it would take would be a software download.  Wouldn't cost them a dime other than bandwidth, and would certainly reap plenty of goodwill.

Marty, you bring up good points.  I don't understand all the facts yet as it seems HP is doing some product transitioning (hell, the z3100 wasn't even listed on the Canada site when I bought).  Perhaps when the dust settles we'll have some clarity.
Logged

Thomas Krüger
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 450



WWW
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2007, 09:08:41 AM »
ReplyReply

I've got my Z3100 24" this week, 4 days ago, and I have still to setup and install the printer, which was actually scheduled for the weekend.

In Germany on the HP website the DJ Z3100 610 mm (Q5669A) is listed with 5662,50 Euro and the DJ Z3100 GP 610 mm (Q5669B) with APS is listed with 5568 Euro.

Perhaps it's possible to "downgrade" from the more expensive Q5669A without APS to the cheaper Q5669B with APS. Let's wait what HP Germany will answer next week.

But I have to admit, that I feel a bit, hmm, bamboozled...  
Logged
marty m
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 335


WWW
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2007, 09:09:19 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote
If there's no longer a plain-jane z3100 product on offer and you can only get a z3100 with APS and/or some other bit of software, then the only sensible thing for HP to do is to upgrade us early-bird purchasers.  AFAIK all it would take would be a software download.  Wouldn't cost them a dime other than bandwidth, and would certainly reap plenty of goodwill.

Marty, you bring up good points.  I don't understand all the facts yet as it seems HP is doing some product transitioning (hell, the z3100 wasn't even listed on the Canada site when I bought).  Perhaps when the dust settles we'll have some clarity.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=114708\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Your solution would take care of those who did NOT buy the APS separately.  The only solution for those who DID buy the APS is to offer us a coupon or rebate either for cash or for the equivalent dollar amount for HP paper and ink.  Or let us allow return the APS, regardless of the date of the purchase, and then download it for free as Sean suggests.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2007, 09:22:10 AM by marty m » Logged
Jim Cole
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 361



WWW
« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2007, 09:29:49 AM »
ReplyReply

Marty,

APS is still listed on HP's site for $799.

Search for product #Q6695A


Jim
« Last Edit: April 28, 2007, 09:35:37 AM by Jim Cole » Logged

Jim Cole
Whitestown, IN
www.jimcolephoto.com
mikeseb
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 482



WWW
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2007, 11:37:02 AM »
ReplyReply

Some maxims come to mind:

1. You pays your money, you takes your chances;
2. Prices and features subject to change without notice;
3. Avoid the bleeding edge of change.

I can understanding your being miffed, but it is not accurate to say that HP "cheated" or "ripped [you] off", unless they took your money and sent you a dead skunk in a box labeled "printer".

You presumably knew what you were buying, and at what price, and decided that the value HP offered justified the price you willingly paid, with no weapon pointed at your head at point of purchase.

Now they've responded to competitive pressures, obviously, and decided to bundle previously un-bundled products at an attractive price point. Happens all the time, and is one of the risks you take when you are first in line to buy a new product; it's happened to me. Sh-- happens in a market economy.

HP must have felt like whatever ill will this would generate among its customers would be offset by the advantages that would accrue to it from the change. Making your feelings known effectively--through your dealer up the supply chain comes to mind--may convince HP that its early adopters need some recompense, but they have no ethical obligation to provide it. They certainly did not rip you off or cheat you in any reasonable interpretation of those disparaging terms.

And no, I have no relationship to HP except as a generally satisfied past, and likely future, customer.
Logged

michael sebastian
Website  |  Blog
Roscolo
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 613


« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2007, 11:39:11 AM »
ReplyReply

My current understanding is that the APS is not really necessary. Unless you need monitor calibration, and I already have that. Are you saying that the built in (not APS) z3100 profiling is not adequate? I hope this is not the case. I just ordered the non-APS 44" z3100.
Logged
marty m
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 335


WWW
« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2007, 11:52:54 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote
Marty,

APS is still listed on HP's site for $799.

Search for product #Q6695A
Jim
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=114712\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I tried, and still didn't come up with it.  But I'll take your word for it, that if you search high and low, it can still be found as an item for sale.

But my original point still stands, and was supported by other postings above.

Namely, that the APS was previously listed under supplies and accessories on all of the standard pages for the Z3100.  It has been removed from ALL of those pages and no longer appears.  What appears instead is the new printer model that includes the APS as part of the purchase price.

And that price, at the retail level, is the same price that many of us paid for the Z3100 without the APS.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2007, 11:53:40 AM by marty m » Logged
marty m
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 335


WWW
« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2007, 12:02:12 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote
My current understanding is that the APS is not really necessary. Unless you need monitor calibration, and I already have that. Are you saying that the built in (not APS) z3100 profiling is not adequate? I hope this is not the case. I just ordered the non-APS 44" z3100.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=114729\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
See my other postings on the APS.  There is clearly a difference between the Easy software and the APS.  Whether it is a minor or a huge difference is a qualitative judgment.  But there is a difference.  That difference has been seen and substantiated by most of those who own the APS.

Otherwise, why would we be calling for HP to fix the software to allow for profiles on media smaller than 24"?  If the APS makes no difference, none of us would care.

You should cancel your order and buy one of the new models that includes the APS for the same price.  It seems a little foolish to go ahead and buy a 44" printer without the APS when you can now buy one with APS.  (I didn't check the prices and specs for the 44" model carefully, as I was looking at the 24" model.  But I think the same arguments  that prompted my original posting in this thread apply to both.)  

We were all cheated by HP in the last two months.  It is your decision as to whether you want to join us.  

The one difference is that we didn't know better or that HP would, less than 60 days from when we bought the first models to be released, release a new model with the APS included for the same price.

We didn't know that.

You do.
Logged
John Hollenberg
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 762


« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2007, 12:06:28 PM »
ReplyReply

Sounds more like they honestly ripped you off; I don't hear any dishonesty here.   The same could be said for the iPF5000 purchasers who paid full price, only to see the printer greatly discounted a short time later.  I would be upset too, but I don't see anything unethical about the behavior of HP.  It certainly does arouse a sense of unfairness, which companies usually try to avoid doing, but competitive pressures may not always make that possible.  My $.02.

--John
Logged
mikeseb
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 482



WWW
« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2007, 12:22:50 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote
We were all cheated by HP in the last two months.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=114737\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Not really. Words have meaning, and you're persistently misusing this one in your understandable ire.

Insisting you've been cheated overstates your case--which I'll bet would otherwise find a sympathetic ear at HP--and seems the least likely way to get what you're after.
Logged

michael sebastian
Website  |  Blog
marty m
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 335


WWW
« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2007, 12:23:08 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote
Some maxims come to mind:

1. You pays your money, you takes your chances;
2. Prices and features subject to change without notice;
3. Avoid the bleeding edge of change.

Making your feelings known effectively--through your dealer up the supply chain comes to mind--may convince HP that its early adopters need some recompense, but they have no ethical obligation to provide it.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=114728\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Another maxim comes to mind:  there is a sucker born every minute.  And that is exactly how HP has treated us.

The best way to make our feelings known is in a public forum like this one.  Let the public know and fully understand HP's record of standing behind its products in only the first 60 to 90 days of the release of those products.  

Not in a call to dealer that would likely, with many dealers, be a complete waste of time.  I'll call my dealer and ask that he include the APS since it is now part of the standard package at the same price that I paid.  It will be interesting to use a stop watch and see how long it takes for him to stop laughing.  Politely of course.  In my case I am beyond the 30 day return period.  The dealer has no legal obligation, and he knows it.  Furthermore, my dealer had no idea that HP was making this change anymore than I did.  Why should my dealer suffer or be the target of my anger when it is HP that misled both its own dealers and all of us?

There is only one obligation that matters -- and that is an obligation of basic fairness and ethical behavior by the manufacturer.

HP flunks on both counts.  The way it has treated its earliest and most loyal customers is appalling.

As I said in my first posting, I can't immediately think of another manufacturer who has released a $4000 product, enticed early adapters to buy it and test it for them, go through enormous pains to get it to work properly, and then to cut the price and the conditions of sale in only the first 60 days.  I agree that this might occur after 365 days.  But not after only 60 days.  That is the point that you failed to respond to.  That HP did this only 60 to 90 days after releasing the product.

And for those of us who were completely misled and seduced to buy the APS as a separate product, well we were really misled and treated unethically.

Or as one of the other eloquent posters put it, bamboozled.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2007, 01:40:01 PM by marty m » Logged
marty m
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 335


WWW
« Reply #16 on: April 28, 2007, 12:40:20 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote
Sounds more like they honestly ripped you off. . . It certainly does arouse a sense of unfairness, which companies usually try to avoid doing, but competitive pressures may not always make that possible.  My $.02.
--John
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=114738\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

John:  I'll accept your correction to my choice of words.  The one difference between you and other postings is that others are excusing HP all together.  

You are correct in your assessment that HP "honestly ripped you off" and it "arouses a sense of unfairness."

Here is what is profoundly ironic.  It is this forum, more than any other, that has brought significant pressure upon HP to improve the early identified failures of the Z3100 and the APS.  And their decision to offer the APS with the printer at the same price is clearly a response to that precise criticism on this forum.  Namely, that the APS was overpriced and  should have been included with the printer all along.

Those who argue that we should instead contact HP directly or a dealer are incredibly naive.  (That is not a point made by John, who maintains a public forum related to Canon, and fully understands the pressure brought to bear by forums like this one.)   It is the public pressure from forums like this that are effective.  And HP's change in the pricing, and dropping APS as a listed accessory for the printer, is a direct result from this forum.

So here is the delicious irony for all of us to ponder.  HP did react to the criticism aimed at it in this forum.  HP did  decide to include the APS in the basic price of the printer.

In so doing -- in reacting in a positive way to our criticism -- they "honestly ripped us off" and have created a "sense of unfairness" with those early and loyal users who voiced those comments in this forum in the first place.

It is our very effectiveness -- our voicing these concerns in this forum more than any other forum or venue -- that led to this situation.

So HP reacted to our criticism, and in the process, shafted all of us.  Now, will HP react again and fix this, as was suggested by Sean in an above posting?
Logged
BlasR
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 760



WWW
« Reply #17 on: April 28, 2007, 01:18:21 PM »
ReplyReply

Well I got my Z3100 44" but I didn't get the APS.
Will be great to have it free now   I feel like Marty.  
I can't beleave the HP go so low in price, it make you think if you should wait couple months and see when anything come out.  

That it's really a very bad business, and HP should think about, because next time everyone will wait and see what can happen in couple more months.

I like to have the APS Free HP please send it to me and return others people money.

I'm with you Marty .

BlasR
Logged

KAP
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 168


WWW
« Reply #18 on: April 28, 2007, 01:25:07 PM »
ReplyReply

Don't we have to expect this with technology these days? that and they never work as well as they should!
I take this outlook, when i buy some technology is it worth to me the price being asked, if yes then it doesn't matter what price it ends up. Shure you don't want to pay more, but if you consider it's worth X then it's always worth X amount. After you bought why keep checking the price.

Kevin.
Logged
BlasR
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 760



WWW
« Reply #19 on: April 28, 2007, 01:50:48 PM »
ReplyReply

Kevin,
You don't need to check price, but if you got X for $6200.00 today and  X will be $ 5000.00 tomorrow, why in the hell you spend the extra in the first place. That is bad business, I know everything come down, but not few months later, if will be like that,  them you want to wait and save money.

I wish I can return the printer.

BlasR
Logged

Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 5 »   Top of Page
Print
Jump to:  

Ad
Ad
Ad