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Author Topic: HP dishonestly ripped us off  (Read 18774 times)
Mussi_Spectraflow
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« Reply #20 on: April 28, 2007, 07:54:12 PM »
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So....As far as I can tell the APS is not being bundled with the base printer. As a reseller we also have not substantially dropped our prices, nor have other vendors. The 24" is still around $4100 and the 44" about $6200. The HP Z3100ps is a different item. It includes the APS as well as more memory and a built-in RIP for postscript and CAD printing. As far as your other complaints if your dissatified with the product you purchased I'm sorry to hear that. For what it is it's value will be appreciated by some more than others. Being able to use the Z3100's onboard spectro to generate profiles for other CMYK printers is a very valuable ability, and a lot cheaper than a DTP-70...granted it's a little less elegant. Over all I'm not sure about the value of the APS average consumer. If you dont own any sort of monitor calibration then it offers a good way to jump into a color managed workflow. Also the PS version is a newer product, and is still about a $1000 more than the base model.
    I agree that if they start bundling the software portion of the APS free in future models then that is cause for a good deal of frustration. However at this point I don't see that as the case. I agree that it is odd that the APS dissapeared from a list of accesories. I will shoot off an email and see what the story is. However there's been no news as of yet to the dealers about the APS being bundled for free.

Julian Mussi
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Julian Mussi

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Roscolo
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« Reply #21 on: April 28, 2007, 08:51:00 PM »
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I'm not sure I see the point of this rant. Is the built in spectro and profiling system inadequate?

I also don't see where HP is giving away the APS. From HP, the z3100 44" printer is $6,295. The APS bundle option is $7,495. That is a difference of $1,200. I didn't buy it because I don't think I need it. If HP's built in profiling system turns out to not work or be inadequate, I will spend the $1200 on an outside solution I can use with other printers, not just the z3100. But then again, I'm purchasing the z3100 so I don't have to use the other printers (i.e. cloggy epsons) anymore.

If I am able to build good quality profiles without APS, why would I want it?

I should have my printer next week or shortly thereafter.

Anyone dissatisfied with the profiling abilities of the z3100 (non APS) in real-world use?
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cgf
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« Reply #22 on: April 28, 2007, 09:25:59 PM »
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... if you got X for $6200.00 today and  X will be $ 5000.00 tomorrow, why in the hell you spend the extra in the first place. That is bad business, I know everything come down, but not few months later, if will be like that,  them you want to wait and save money.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=114766\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The price drop (etc) happening in just a few months is a reflection of the market, the length of the product life-cycle, etc...

If you adopt new products first, you usually pay higher prices to have them before everyone else. I remember when Motorola released a new cellular phone here in Oz, it was launched at $799 cash (street) price and a guy at work was showing his off around the office... 3 weeks later they were down to $250-ish...

Yes, those who bought early paid more for this printer than if it was bought now. The trade off is that they had the new technology first, and have enjoyed it's use for that time. So the question is, was it worth it?
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Haraldo
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« Reply #23 on: April 28, 2007, 10:15:44 PM »
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BIG SNIP...So HP reacted to our criticism, and in the process, shafted all of us.  Now, will HP react again and fix this, as was suggested by Sean in an above posting?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=114744\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Sorry, Marty, but what are you talking about?
1. HP normally introduces PostScript versions of its printers after the "regular" ones are out. I remember the same thing with the DJ5500. They don't discontinue the first one.
2. As of this very moment (on the HP site), the Z3100 44" "regular" lists for $6,295. The PS version is $7,495. The difference is $1,200. You get a PostScript RIP and APS for that. What's the problem?
3. Maybe they've pulled APS off the site because they're getting ready to release the new version. Who knows? I don't. And I consult for them (not about this stuff).

"dishonest" and "ripping off"Huh Come on, Marty. You're passionate, I'll give you that, but this is flat-out name-calling, mixed in with a dose of hubris and hyperbole.

Harald Johnson
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Haraldo
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Avalan
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« Reply #24 on: April 28, 2007, 10:30:24 PM »
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Hi folks
I reside in Canada . None of the US competitive prices and promotions exists here . Not for printers and nor for consumables .  This is my experience here and how I feel about this topic :

Last winter I got Canon IPF5000 , and of course for higher price available for American users in the States at the same time.  We Canadians envy this . I guess European users envy all of us even more , since they pay much more for the same product .   Well it is how it works nowadays.   But when I got the 5000 , there was worth of about  $200 paper included for free even without my knowledge .  When I asked about it , the nice reseller told me this is a new promotion from Canon . And since I just ordered it a few days before this promotion , they added it for free to my order as well.   It was a very nice bonus and surprise.  I need to give a plus to Canon for doing that.

Last week finally I found out Z3100 is really available and selling in Canada. (At the moment I'm typing this , still HP Canada site says z3100 COMING SOON !!  and no price for any 3100 models yet !!  I have sent two separate e-mails regarding this and no corrections yet. And 3100 models already are being sold here since march , as far as know!!)

Anyways Z-3100 - No APS- was ordered last week and will be delivered whenever I finish the preparations.
If I see after a short while the APS is included for the same price paid for the basic model in Canada ,   will not be happy.   I will not call HP a cheater , Just won't be happy . It feels like you buy a car  and after a few weeks price goes down .  Well It is how the market works .
But if HP can add a free software to the customers who have already paid big bucks for the printer , Will be considered a smart and good customer service. It is what Canon did .

Regards - Avalan
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ARCASWISS
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« Reply #25 on: April 28, 2007, 11:00:11 PM »
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Want some cheese with your whine?
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Avalan
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« Reply #26 on: April 28, 2007, 11:25:42 PM »
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Would be nice.
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marty m
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« Reply #27 on: April 28, 2007, 11:35:38 PM »
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    I agree that if they start bundling the software portion of the APS free in future models then that is cause for a good deal of frustration. However at this point I don't see that as the case. I agree that it is odd that the APS dissapeared from a list of accesories. I will shoot off an email and see what the story is. However there's been no news as of yet to the dealers about the APS being bundled for free.

Julian Mussi
www.spectraflow.com
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=114789\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
You won't be selling very many Z3100s since that is precisely what is being offered by other authorized HP resellers.  Specifically, a package deal, including the APS, for the original price of the separate Z3100 without the APS.

On the other hand, I appreciate the acknowledgment of the self-evident -- that HP removed the APS from dozens of web pages as a listed accessory.  Not just one or two web pages.  HP removed it across the board, on all of the redundant web pages for the Z3100.  That is no accident.  Of course, it is impossible to sell an accessory for an extravagant $800 that is now offered absolutely for free in the base price of the printer.

Responding to other posts, not Julian's --

I already responded to Roscolo above.  I only, note, again, that the APS does result in superior profiles.  Whether the difference matters to you is a qualitative and personal judgment.  For many, the Easy software is fine.  For others, with highly exacting standards, the APS matters.  If you want the best possible results from the Z3100, then the APS makes a difference.  This thread is discussing those who bought the Z3100 before this package deal was announced by retailers.  For everyone else, including Roscolo, you know what your options are.  It makes no sense to buy the printer alone, when you can now get it for the same price with the APS, but that is your choice to make.

Harald -- you know better than to base your argument on MSRP.  You are quoting the manufacturers list prices off the HP web site.  Other posters have cited at least half a dozen retailers selling the Z3100 and APS for the price of the Z3100 alone.  And the APS has disappeared as a recommeded accessory.  What more evidence do you want?  

Harlad, did HP drop prices only 60 days after they introduced the DJ5500?  I doubt it.  

But if they did, it was wrong then, and it is wrong now.

Since HP doesn't post here, consumers are forced to come to self-evident and obvious conclusions.  The prices now charged for the printer and APS, and the fact that the APS is no longer listed as an accessory, is pretty damning evidence.  At least I acknowledge and report on the self-evident.

The defenders-of-HP-at-all-costs, and at this point the cost is at least $700-$800 (what you lost by not getting the printer and APS, or what you paid for a separate APS) still haven't justified how it is A-OK for HP to do this only 60 days after they started selling the units in large quantities, and after many on this web site spent hundreds of hours to fix the many problems that first plagued the Z3100 and the APS.

I note for the record that it was my posts that started with DO NOT BUY HP APS that rang the alarm bell on how incredibly dumb it was that the APS can only profile papers 24" in diameter.  As a result of those public postings HP is now testing a new version that corrects those problems as confirmed in a separate thread on this site.

I was criticized for those postings as well, by those who argued then, and are arguing now, that you get what you pay for, so stop complaining.  (Those who criticize me in that regard must be millionaires with money to burn.)  

Please save all of us from those with the "buyer beware" attitude who defend manufacturers from absolutely anything, no matter how egregious it might be.  

And this is pretty egregious.  

Those in contact with Spain have reported -- on numerous occasions -- that the HP staff who designed the Z3100 are under considerable pressure to fix the problems and restore the reputation of HP.  That is not a result of our thinking good thoughts, wasting our time by calling our dealers, or really wasting our time by calling some poorly trained customer service rep who hasn't even seen a Z3100.

No, that is a direct result of the postings on this site.  Just as the new version of the APS is a result of many users of the APS agreeing with my original posting that they would not buy the APS until the problems are fixed.

If this impacts the reputation of HP -- as it should -- and impacts sales -- as it should -- HP will take notice.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2007, 12:07:43 AM by marty m » Logged
Avalan
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« Reply #28 on: April 29, 2007, 12:39:02 AM »
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Marty wrote :

"I only, note, again, that the APS does result in superior profiles. Whether the difference matters to you is a qualitative and personal judgment. For many, the Easy software is fine. For others, with highly exacting standards, the APS matters. If you want the best possible results from the Z3100, then the APS makes a difference. This thread is discussing those who bought the Z3100 before this package deal was announced by retailers. It makes no sense to buy the printer alone, when you can now get it for the same price with the APS, but that is your choice to make. "

Agree
Will contact the reseller on monday to see what are the deals in this part the world for APS.
Here in Canada everything is a different ball game.
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Thomas Krüger
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« Reply #29 on: April 29, 2007, 12:59:37 AM »
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Will contact the reseller on monday to see what are the deals in this part the world for APS.
Here in Canada everything is a different ball game.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=114814\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

And I will report from Germany about the APS next week.
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dkeyes
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« Reply #30 on: April 29, 2007, 01:11:19 AM »
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Marty,
Welcome to the world of the early adopter. Buyers remorse is standard for any electronics or computer purchase. My last two mac computer purchases were upgraded to faster/better computers within the first month and the prices dropped by 20% as well. I bought the z3100 one week before the rebates came out and I bought the APS separately just a month ago. So I've paid the price and then some. Am I pissed? Yes, but I'm not surprised, I needed the printer at that time and it's already paid for itself.

HP is no different than any other electronics/computer maker. It's all about change, to hell with the consumer. Actually, change is demanded by us. We wanted a better product for the money (APS) and now they may give it to us for "free". The early adopters always pave the way for more affordable products for those who can wait. The rule of thumb is to wait for the 2nd generation (at least) of a new product or as long as you can before you need to purchase it. This is why I'm waiting till my CRT monitor is dead before I upgrade to an LCD monitor, prices keep on falling. Same goes for my tube tv.

- Doug

P.S. I hope you weren't one of the few "suckers" who bought the first blueray disc players at $5000. (or whatever outrageous price they were asking)
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marty m
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« Reply #31 on: April 29, 2007, 02:07:01 AM »
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P.S. I hope you weren't one of the few "suckers" who bought the first blueray disc players at $5000. (or whatever outrageous price they were asking)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=114816\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
You at least have correctly pointed to the perils of being an early adopter -- and correctly made the point.  Everyone else who has made that argument (of the perils of being an early adopter) in this thread has not summarized it correctly.  

We all understand that the first units on the cutting edge cost substantially more.  The next blu-ray player (second generation) was lower in price, and by the time you get to the third generation, the price really drops.

But Blu-Ray is a perfect example of the point I am making.  NONE OF THOSE MANUFACTURERS DROPPED THE PRICE BY $800 IN THE FIRST 60 DAYS ON THE SAME IDENTICAL UNIT.

None of those manufacturers turned around and included an accessory in the first 60 days that previously cost $800 ON THE SAME IDENTICAL UNIT.

Absolutely everyone who is making the "early adopter" argument has it wrong.  Early adopter first generation units always cost more.  But rarely, if ever, do the prices drop by $800 within 60 days ON THE SAME IDENTICAL MODEL, thereby royally screwing those who bought the first units.  The price drops when the NEXT model comes out -- when the SECOND generation is released.  Or it drops many, many months later on the same model -- not in the first 60 days.

If all manufacturers behaved as HP apparently has, then units would simply sit on shelves collecting dust for the first two to four months, as we all wait for a price drop.  That point was made by another poster above who now wishes he could return the printer, and only 60 days later buy the same printer with the APS included.

If we knew that HP would behave this irresponsibly, we would have all waited.  And not a single Z3100 would have sold for the first two to four months.

The reason that manufacturers do NOT behave this irresponsibly is that they desperately need to recover costs and begin selling units once they hit the market.  And retailers can't afford to invest in tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars in inventory only to have it sit there, take precious floor space, and not sell.

The other point about early adopters is that they are the ones who help work out the kinks and report on the problems.  We are the beta testers.  That is absolutely right -- and that is another compelling reason that manufacturers do not screw their beta testers and early adopters by lowering the price by $800 in only the first 60 days.

As I previously stated, the way that HP has apparently treated us is appalling, and sets a new low for manufacturers.  

Now that I have reacted to my critics, it occurs to me that there is a simple way to make my point, and I will add it to my first posting at the start of this thread:

There is a clear warning and lesson for all us.  Namely:

DO NOT BUY ANY HP PRODUCTS IN THE FIRST THREE OR FOUR MONTHS, AND WAIT FOR THE PRICE TO DROP.

Julian, you sell their products.  Is that the conclusion you want all of us to reach?

Harald, you consult for HP.  Is that the conclusion you want all of us to take from this sorry debacle?

As for other countries, it may be that this new PS unit has hit the US market first.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2007, 02:33:37 AM by marty m » Logged
EricWHiss
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« Reply #32 on: April 29, 2007, 02:33:31 AM »
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Hi Marty,
Can you tell me where I can get the hp 3100 with the aps for the same price? I am finally about to buy one.  My second question is this free in addition to the $1000 rebate or without it?  I think their rebate goes until the end of May but I have not heard anything about getting the APS for the same price plus rebate.  

Julian at Spectraflow is a straight up dealer and a nice guy - if he is saying that they are not doing it I am wondering who is. Please tell us.
Thanks,
Eric
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marty m
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« Reply #33 on: April 29, 2007, 02:45:39 AM »
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Hi Marty,
Can you tell me where I can get the hp 3100 with the aps for the same price? I am finally about to buy one.  My second question is this free in addition to the $1000 rebate or without it?  I think their rebate goes until the end of May but I have not heard anything about getting the APS for the same price plus rebate. 

Julian at Spectraflow is a straight up dealer and a nice guy - if he is saying that they are not doing it I am wondering who is. Please tell us.
Thanks,
Eric
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Check out the APS thread. There are six or eight retailers listed in that thread.  If you do a google search I'm sure you can find even more.

In that same APS thread someone said they checked with HP and the rebate does apply to the new PS model.  I haven't checked myself, as I already bought the printer and APS  and already lost $800.

A later edit, here are the links as provided on the APS thread.  I'm sure you can find plenty more by using google:

[a href=\"http://www.provantage.com/hewlett-packard-...cc~7HEWD0LU.htm]http://www.provantage.com/hewlett-packard-...cc~7HEWD0LU.htm[/url]

http://www.superwarehouse.com/p.cfm?p=1496596

http://www.nextwarehouse.com/item/?357519_...MPAQ_Q5670A#BCC

http://www.pcnation.com/web/details.asp?item=M35744
« Last Edit: April 29, 2007, 11:00:00 AM by marty m » Logged
Avalan
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« Reply #34 on: April 29, 2007, 03:40:38 AM »
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I read the whole thread one more time . Not agree with Marty on all of his comments , but he has a strong and valid point for his discussion.

Last Wednesday the 3100-24" - no APS - was ordered . It cost me $4585 CAND plus taxes , total of $5181 CAND .
guess it is around $4560 USD . No $1000 or 300 paper rebate available ( which is available in the US , until end of May).  So you can see how Canadian users may feel about it.

Well , I have accepted it for all products and these are the differences in the market for every item . But if you think I will be happy to see it was possible to get the 3100 plus APS for the same price  if I was waiting a month more ,  you are wrong . Still will not call HP a cheater ,  but will be really unhappy.

This is the first HP printer I have ever bought . it is great printer, regardless of this APS deal .
Since I don't know how HP will respond , will wait and see .
Don't consider HP obligated for giving away the extra bonus for previous buyers. But will examine their response to who have already paid big bucks in last couple of months .

I have seen HP serious to pay attention to user demands . this will be another test.
will report back as soon as I hear from reseller . As mentioned , here is a different ball game.

Regards - Avalan
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KAP
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« Reply #35 on: April 29, 2007, 04:06:50 AM »
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Kevin,
You don't need to check price, but if you got X for $6200.00 today and  X will be $ 5000.00 tomorrow, why in the hell you spend the extra in the first place. That is bad business, I know everything come down, but not few months later, if will be like that,  them you want to wait and save money.

I wish I can return the printer.

BlasR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=114766\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

If you didn't think it was worth $6200. to you why did you buy it? You could buy it today at $5000. and tomorrow it will be $4000. Your only solution is not to buy anything new.

Kevin.
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Christopher
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« Reply #36 on: April 29, 2007, 04:54:18 AM »
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Oh PLZ STOPP IT.

Should I start crying because I had to pay 7000EUR which would be around 9500US compared to the 6500 list price here in Germany ?

I don't because it is a fact and if you want something than you pay. We could start talking about so many things, like the HP rebate or Canon rebate, OH I bought my lens a week ago and now I get 50EURs of, I was cheated. Sorry but that is nonsense. APS is expensive and it always was. If you think you need it buy it, if not don't.
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BlasR
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« Reply #37 on: April 29, 2007, 07:21:08 AM »
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Well my friend, I got it because I want it. in 1991 I got a rolex (Oyster Perpetual datejust) if you go in see it today still the same price.

What Marty, say is why to buy from hp today if in couple months will be $1000 less.
why no wait?.  next time I will wait. a $1000 is a $1000. hp next time if will be next time, I will wait 5 months.



BlasR


Quote
If you didn't think it was worth $6200. to you why did you buy it? You could buy it today at $5000. and tomorrow it will be $4000. Your only solution is not to buy anything new.

Kevin.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=114829\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Roscolo
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« Reply #38 on: April 29, 2007, 07:39:06 AM »
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Regarding the rebate, guess someone from HP can clear this up, but from HP's site it says:

"If you currently own a 17-44" wide color inkjet printer(s) and you purchase an HP Designjet Z2100 or Z3100 Photo Printer between February 1, 2007 and May 31, 2007, and you comply with the terms and conditions set forth below, you can receive Cash Back by mail of up to $1,000 depending on the new product you purchase"

I have a feeling that means what it says. If one buys a model z2100 or z3100, you can get the rebate. If you buy the model z3100ps GP, that printer will not be eligible for the rebate (different model). So in essence you are still paying about $900 - $1200 extra for the APS.
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« Reply #39 on: April 29, 2007, 09:53:59 AM »
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Regarding the rebate, guess someone from HP can clear this up, but from HP's site it says:

"If you currently own a 17-44" wide color inkjet printer(s) and you purchase an HP Designjet Z2100 or Z3100 Photo Printer between February 1, 2007 and May 31, 2007, and you comply with the terms and conditions set forth below, you can receive Cash Back by mail of up to $1,000 depending on the new product you purchase"

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=114845\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Can you provide a link to that?  It's probably US purchasers only, but it's worth looking at anyway.

N.B. if you're looking for a Canadian reseller, I suggest you check your local university's "tech shop."  I got my 44" z3100 from the University of Waterloo for $6994CDN+tax, which is about $6KUSD.  Downside: I had to pick it up from their loading dock; rented a moving van to get it home.  Of course, you don't get any support with this sort of purchase, but given that HP Canada STILL doesn't acknowledge the damn printer, I wasn't expecting any support anyway.
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