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Author Topic: Petronas Twin Towers  (Read 18242 times)
DarkPenguin
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« Reply #20 on: May 13, 2007, 10:05:25 AM »
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Howie, let's see some of your work so that we might understand where you are coming from, and decide how much weight to give to your comments.

Thanks.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=117271\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Is that like viewing "Beyond the Valley of the Dolls" in order to decide if Roger Ebert can review movies?
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James Godman
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« Reply #21 on: May 13, 2007, 11:55:04 AM »
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Is that like viewing "Beyond the Valley of the Dolls" in order to decide if Roger Ebert can review movies?
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No, its not like that.  As a site for photographers to share information and help each other, it seems a basic prerequisite should be for people to show some images they have made so that comments have context.
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howiesmith
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« Reply #22 on: May 13, 2007, 01:30:35 PM »
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Howie, let's see some of your work so that we might understand where you are coming from, and decide how much weight to give to your comments.

Thanks.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=117271\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I seriously doubt you must see one of my images to better understand where I am coming from or whether my comment that the I think the corners are too dark has any validity.  Just look at the corners, read the comment, and then decide for yourself what you think.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2007, 01:32:18 PM by howiesmith » Logged
howiesmith
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« Reply #23 on: May 13, 2007, 01:45:44 PM »
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Is that like viewing "Beyond the Valley of the Dolls" in order to decide if Roger Ebert can review movies?
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I think it is more like having to see one of Roger Ebert's own movies before you can decide whether he knows enough about movies to give you his opinion.
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DarkPenguin
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« Reply #24 on: May 13, 2007, 02:39:39 PM »
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I think it is more like having to see one of Roger Ebert's own movies before you can decide whether he knows enough about movies to give you his opinion.
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"Beyond the Valley of the Dolls" is such a movie.  May Russ Meyers rest in peace.
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James Godman
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« Reply #25 on: May 13, 2007, 07:47:20 PM »
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"Beyond the Valley of the Dolls" is such a movie.  May Russ Meyers rest in peace.
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Yes, and its out there, with his name on it (as writer or whatever it was).
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #26 on: May 14, 2007, 01:54:20 AM »
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I shot this a few weeks ago. It was during the afternoon, and it was also about to rain infect. Is there anything I could do to make it better?


[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=116175\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I personnally like the image, except for 2 small details:

1. The white contrast edge on the left tower is distrating,
2. The sky on the right is darkened a bit too much, and because of this there isn't enough separation with the right tower.

Regards,
Bernard
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A few images online here!
howiesmith
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« Reply #27 on: May 14, 2007, 06:58:47 AM »
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Howie, let's see some of your work so that we might understand where you are coming from, and decide how much weight to give to your comments.

Thanks.
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One of the dumbest comments I have ever seen.  Why do you need to see one of my images to know whether you think the corners are too dark?  Just look and decide for yourself.  I don't even need to own a camera to think the corners are too dark.  

I think the sky looks strange in Starry Night.  Do I have to show you a painting before I can think?  Just dumb.
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James Godman
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« Reply #28 on: May 14, 2007, 09:00:35 AM »
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One of the dumbest comments I have ever seen.  Why do you need to see one of my images to know whether you think the corners are too dark?  Just look and decide for yourself.  I don't even need to own a camera to think the corners are too dark. 

I think the sky looks strange in Starry Night.  Do I have to show you a painting before I can think?  Just dumb.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=117428\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Its not that Howie, its that your comments usually strike me as condescending.  But now I know you are only a critic.  Was trying to be civil and you break out words like "dumb".  That's smart.  Great comment.
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howiesmith
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« Reply #29 on: May 14, 2007, 10:27:31 AM »
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... your comments usually strike me as condescending.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=117452\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Why not just say what you mean?  So even I can understand what you meam.

++++++++++++++++++++++

To address Mr. Godman's opinion about not being civil. I want to change dumb to absurd and dumbest to most absurd.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2007, 12:10:25 PM by howiesmith » Logged
Jonathan Wienke
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« Reply #30 on: May 14, 2007, 03:33:09 PM »
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The first two comments regarding the image posted I found a little strange, daft irrelevent comments about copyright worthiness and not looking natural.
Silly nit picking. The image looks like a good commercial or advertising image to me. Who cares if it looks 'natural'?

You're kind of missing the point of this forum, which is to present work and solicit opinions about it, with the idea of altering improving one's work technically and artistically. In my opinion, and that of several other respondents, the burning-in of the sky is overdone. If you want to disagree with that assessment, fine, but that doesn't make our opinion daft, strange, or irrelevant. It's not like God died and made you the ultimate arbiter of photographic artistic merit; have a bit of respect for dissenting opinion. There's a lot of experience in these forums.
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Ray
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« Reply #31 on: May 14, 2007, 11:58:14 PM »
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One of the dumbest comments I have ever seen.  Why do you need to see one of my images to know whether you think the corners are too dark?  Just look and decide for yourself.  I don't even need to own a camera to think the corners are too dark. 

I think the sky looks strange in Starry Night.  Do I have to show you a painting before I can think?  Just dumb.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=117428\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I tend to agree with Howard here. You don't need to have produced a successful movie to be a film critic. You don't need to have written a successful novel to be a literary critic and you don't need to have composed a successful symphony to be a music critic.

What's at issue here is revenge. You've hurt my feelings and trashed my photo so I want to see one of your photos so I can trash it.

Having said that, many viewers might not be aware that the Petronus Towers is a political hot potato. It was constructed under the Mahatir regime as a symbol of Malaysia's readyness to be a fully developed country by 2020. At the time, it claimed to be the tallest building in the world.

This photo from Couleur could be regarded as a political statement. The excessively dark coners could represent the bottomless pit of white elephant construction, corruption and waste of resources, designed primarily to impress.
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Robert Roaldi
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« Reply #32 on: May 15, 2007, 07:02:02 AM »
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I tend to agree with Howard here. You don't need to have produced a successful movie to be a film critic. You don't need to have written a successful novel to be a literary critic and you don't need to have composed a successful symphony to be a music critic.

This is not untrue so far as it goes. But not all criticism is of equal value. The poster may have simply been trying to establish credentials to judge the validity of the opinions expressed. Since this is an open web forum, it's difficult, in general, to know who's talking. Asking for examples of Howie's own work may not be the best way to establish that of course. Being a good (or bad) photographer does not make one a good (or bad) critic or a good (or bad) teacher.

Howie does make a good point in that so long as one sticks to the notion "judge each argument on its own merit". A reader could then take his comments at face value (e.g., skies too dark) and make use of them (or not) at one own's discretion. This point of view seems perfectly valid. (For example, I regarded the opinion about the skies as a perfectly valid remark to make, but the comment about the copyright notice was beside the point and unnecessary, so I discounted it.)



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What's at issue here is revenge. You've hurt my feelings and trashed my photo so I want to see one of your photos so I can trash it.

This may have been the motivation but I didn't honestly read that in that poster's remarks.
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Ray
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« Reply #33 on: May 15, 2007, 07:22:54 AM »
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This is not untrue so far as it goes. But not all criticism is of equal value. The poster may have simply been trying to establish credentials to judge the validity of the opinions expressed. Since this is an open web forum, it's difficult, in general, to know who's talking. Asking for examples of Howie's own work may not be the best way to establish that of course. Being a good (or bad) photographer does not make one a good (or bad) critic or a good (or bad) teacher.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=117656\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Well, that's exactly the point I was making. Supposing Howard were to display his best photo, perhaps a fluke that had won an award; the only really good photo he had taken in 40 years of photography.

Would that make perhaps a totally invalid criticism from Howard suddenly valid and meaningful? I think not.

My view is, accept the criticism gratefully, if it makes sense. Take it on board. If it doesn't make sense, argue like hell. Do not accept it.

By the way, that which is not untrue is true.  
« Last Edit: May 15, 2007, 07:30:19 AM by Ray » Logged
Robert Roaldi
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« Reply #34 on: May 15, 2007, 08:03:36 AM »
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Would that make perhaps a totally invalid criticism from Howard suddenly valid and meaningful? I think not.

In general I agree, but it seems to me that there is a "validity" continuum between "invalid" and "valid". I would regard an opinion of my photo by MR to be more important than my mother's (who naturally loves everything I do).

I read the earlier poster's comments as a (problematic) way of establishing Howie's critical credentials. I assumed that he did this to help him gauge the importance of the critique.

Can we live without the critic's bio? Of course. But knowing something about your critics (e.g., Roger Ebert's long body of work) does affect how much importance one is going to attach to the criticism. As I wrote in my earlier post, not all opinions are of equal worth.
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Robert
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howiesmith
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« Reply #35 on: May 15, 2007, 09:01:56 AM »
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In general I agree, but it seems to me that there is a "validity" continuum between "invalid" and "valid". I would regard an opinion of my photo by MR to be more important than my mother's (who naturally loves everything I do).

I read the earlier poster's comments as a (problematic) way of establishing Howie's critical credentials. I assumed that he did this to help him gauge the importance of the critique.

Can we live without the critic's bio? Of course. But knowing something about your critics (e.g., Roger Ebert's long body of work) does affect how much importance one is going to attach to the criticism. As I wrote in my earlier post, not all opinions are of equal worth.
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I think the point is missed completely.  I didn't pass any artistic judgement, kile MR or Roger Ebert might.  I didn't say it was a "good movie."  I merely made some statements that could be seen; the corners are too datk, there is a white halo, some flair, etc.  And yes, the copyright.  The photographer and any other viewer can see these very same things if they look, and they can decide for themsleves whether my comments are valid.  I was merely assuming, apparently incorrectly, that one does not need Roger Ebert to tell them whether they like a particular movie or not.  "I like it because Ebert liked it."  Or "The corners aren't dark because MR didn't say they were."  Maybe I was expecting too much for some folks to think for themselves.

OK, I post an image.  It is my one and only good image.  Everybody who owns a camera has one image that proves thay are the next Adams.  Or maybe I just steal one.  (I have often thought it would be fun to post Moonrise and watch it get trashed.  Or maybe it is just a random sample from thousands of perfect images I have made.  But it is good, very good.  

Suddenly, I am credible?  I say the image has made no difference.  That perfect table top I show proves the sky is too dark?  Absurd.

Or my posted image is bad.  Suddenly I can't see a black sky or a white halo?

Simply put, if you can see and think for yourself, you don't need a sample of my work for you to decide for yourself whether the black sky is too dark or not.  You look, you see, and you decide for yourself.  If MR suddenly chimes in with teh sky is too dark, is it?  If the image is revealed as an original MR, is it suddenly "Wow, the best thing I have seen."?
« Last Edit: May 15, 2007, 09:08:03 AM by howiesmith » Logged
Ray
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« Reply #36 on: May 15, 2007, 09:18:05 AM »
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As I wrote in my earlier post, not all opinions are of equal worth.
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Now that's a very contentious issue, Robert, applying a 'worth' scale to an opinion. Maybe we should get Bill Janes on this job with some variation of the 'Subjective Quality Factor', SQF   .

Let's face it, when it comes to art, anything goes. You either like it or you don't. It's either meaningful or it isn't. You either think it's a good investment or not, and if you are a critic you think it might be improved by this adjustment or that.

Perhaps we're into a consensus of opinion here. If a photo sells well, there's a dollar vote that says it's good.
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Ray
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« Reply #37 on: May 15, 2007, 09:24:40 AM »
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Simply put, if you can see and think for yourself, you don't need a sample of my work for you to decide for yourself whether the black sky is too dark or not.  You look, you see, and you decide for yourself.  If MR suddenly chimes in with teh sky is too dark, is it?  If the image is revealed as an original MR, is it suddenly "Wow, the best thing I have seen."?
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You might have missed the symbolism of this photo, Howie.
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howiesmith
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« Reply #38 on: May 15, 2007, 09:36:56 AM »
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You might have missed the symbolism of this photo, Howie.
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I probably did.  I still think the sky is too dark.  You apparently see something I don't, so the sky isn't too dark.  It's just right.  Or maybe not dark enough.

You look, you see, you decide for yourself.  You didn't need a sample of my work to do that.  Did you?  Of course not, because you don't have a sample.  How did you do it?
« Last Edit: May 15, 2007, 09:38:36 AM by howiesmith » Logged
Ray
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« Reply #39 on: May 15, 2007, 09:44:17 AM »
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You look, you see, you decide for yourself.  You didn't need a sample of my work to do that.  Did you?  Of course not, because you don't have a sample.  How did you do it?
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I think for myself and if you make an unjustified comment on any of my works, I'll let you know, okay?  
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