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Author Topic: Mamiya ZD 22MP Back $ 6995 announced in US  (Read 32993 times)
Anders_HK
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« Reply #20 on: June 01, 2007, 09:00:46 PM »
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Observations per www.mamiya.com (USA site) is that the ZD slr is not listed. However by downloading the brochure for ZD Back also the ZD slr is in it. Specs for ZD slr and ZD back seem listed there as identical except that the frame rate is 1.5fps for the ZDslr  and lower 1.2fps for the back. The same 1.8" small display are on both.

The ZD slr has been out on the world market for well over a year. It would be interesting if they made an upgrade to both the ZD slr and ZD back by increasing ISO and greatly improving on high ISO low noise. Also larger display of course... and lower price on the ZD slr... perhaps a package with lenses?

The ZD slr camera seem excellent except for above. Personally I am seeking to upgrade to around 20MP camera because of my interest in large prints. My eyes are looking out for Canon and Nikon coming offerings but indeed an upgrade of the ZD slr would be very very tempting. The ZD slr camera appear like a superb solution compared to all high tech wiz bang of modern slrs that I really not use much for my shooting preferences (multiple focus points, focus tracking etc...). Seems the ZD slr also offer high DR per reading of it on the net, perhaps an upper hand to Canon and Nikon coming offerings??

Does anyone have a clue of possible image quality updates to the ZD back and slr?

Much thanks for any comments.

Regards
Anders
(I shoot Nikon D200 but just got into MF with a Mamiya 7II)
http://www.photo.net/photodb/folder?folder_id=709640
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #21 on: June 02, 2007, 02:19:47 AM »
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just like the ZD this is a bit better then the 1dsmkII (at 100iso) but much slower and a bit below 16bit MF backs (which will provide cleaner transitions, better color and cleaner files).....
but the idea that with a 5D and a 645/ZD one can now get 2 kits covering pretty much everything under 20.000 is very tempting.....
i would still get the P21.....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=120704\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

We've been through this before, and I still haven't seen you providing any evidence that the DR of the ZD is any worse than the DR of the equivalent Leaf and Phase back, or that it has worse transitions, or worse colors.

Since what you write appears to be mere assumptions based on specs, it might be good to state this clearly in your posts.

Cheers,
Bernard
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mcfoto
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« Reply #22 on: June 02, 2007, 05:17:54 AM »
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Hi
When the ZD camera was released the speed had improved from 1.5 to 1.2 f/s. To me it is one of those stories where Mamiya is not great with PR. For most camera manufacturers they would be blowing there horn but not Mamiya they are modest.( timing or new owners?) Again for $6995.00 USD for a 22 mp, 1.2 f/s, jpg... this is a hell of a deal! This is a different league to the Kodax  back, I know because I used one. I read MR review of the ZD camera today again & it is worth reading again, a very fair review. With the MAC support this is good news for MFD!
Denis
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Denis Montalbetti
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nicholask
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« Reply #23 on: June 02, 2007, 07:00:20 AM »
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Hi,
I find this announcement extremely exciting.  I have been considering backs on the market for some time now, and it has simply not been an option to spring for any at the exorbitant prices that they command.  I have tested out a ZD SLR on several occasions, and compared the files with what I got off a Sinar 54M, and could not find any significant differences.  I have used the Sinar backs extensively for the past 3 years, though I digress...

As a Mamiya 645AFD owner, this is what I have been waiting and hoping for.  I had actually expected that it would come in around $11-12K when announced, so I am over the moon with the price point.  I was actually tossing around this week whether I should hire a Canon 1DS Mark II for a job I have reproducing some art works for a book, as it has been getting increasingly difficult to rent digi backs for the Mamiya platform, as some many rental centres have gone over to Blad in Australia.  I need a back for jobs that can go on for weeks (rather than a few days) at a stretch, and the starting cost on renting a Phase or Sinar here is AU$1,700 plus per week.  Clients tend to balk a little at paying rentals like these in my line of work.

We are suddenly in a whole new ballpark.

Nick
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rainer_v
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« Reply #24 on: June 02, 2007, 07:25:31 AM »
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after two years of announcements and excitements about the prices of the mamiya backs i just wait to see one..... or to see anyone who has got one.

[/quote]
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rainer viertlböck
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pss
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« Reply #25 on: June 02, 2007, 12:11:10 PM »
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We've been through this before, and I still haven't seen you providing any evidence that the DR of the ZD is any worse than the DR of the equivalent Leaf and Phase back, or that it has worse transitions, or worse colors.

Since what you write appears to be mere assumptions based on specs, it might be good to state this clearly in your posts.

Cheers,
Bernard
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=0\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
yes we have been trough this before....i have seen raw files and they are somewhere in between DSLR and DMF...with the actual announcement and the price this is great news....i have said it before, if they can keep the price more aligned with canon, they will have a real chance....and that is really all i meant: this is direct competition to canon for someone looking for file quality/resolution at 100iso....actually it beats canon, also on price.....i honestly doubt that the "new/next/dsmkIII" will be better then this back at 100iso....it will shoot faster/higher,.....but at 100 the ZD is the clear price/performance winner right now.....
i emailed the announcement to a friend of mine yesterday, he shoots mamiya (for now he rents phase when he needs a back), has a 5D and is in the market for a DMF....i told him to take a good hard look at this solution.....he wrote me an email this morning (after spending all night comparing, reading tests, looking at his old files, his 5D files) and he just feels that the ZD might be an "inbetween" step that he might regret a year from today......
not only about  file quality, but also about the future (it did take mamiya 3? years to release this thing in the US!), the money he would be saving is not that important as a longterm commitment.....plus he has gotten used to shooting his 5D at 400-800iso and the phase backs handle this easily as well......

 with all this in mind: if i was looking to get into digital today i would probably buy the ZD...but i shoot studio at 100....most of the time....but i have a P30 and i would not give up its advantages and knowing how the phase handles and knowing the files (with my experience) i would spend the extra money and get a P21.....for my work it makes much more sense....


i have to add something to this to put things into perspective: phase is charging me 6000 (becuase i signed up early, otherwise 8000!) to upgrade my P30 to a P30+......i haven't seen any P30+ files and am not sure how much the P30 can be improved upon (the screen and the extra stop 1600iso) don't really make me antsy...) so i could actually spend that money and buy a whole new back.....this is something that should make ALL makers think.....

we all win if something like this comes out....i guess it was a good thing that mamiya waited so long....the price is definitely right at this time......
« Last Edit: June 02, 2007, 01:23:39 PM by pss » Logged

jimgolden
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« Reply #26 on: June 02, 2007, 04:35:16 PM »
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so i could actually spend that money and buy a whole new back.....this is something that should make ALL makers think.....

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=120790\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

theres somehting to think about....
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awofinden
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« Reply #27 on: June 02, 2007, 04:44:30 PM »
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With regard to the 14 bits of this back compared to the 16 of many others, you should look at the image quality and make judgements made on that rather than discounting the thing just based on numbers. I used to have a sinar 54s which allegedly was only 14 bits and the dynamic range was far superior to that of my canon 1ds mark 2 and although I havent got the sinar anymore so cant compare side by side I certainly dont see greater dynamic range from my 16 bit phase one back.
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Kumar
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« Reply #28 on: June 02, 2007, 05:21:51 PM »
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I too have been waiting for the Mamiya ZD back. I've always shot at 100 ISO or occasionally lower on film. I make perhaps twenty images a day, so I don't need anything more than 1 frame a minute. I absolutely want Windows support. Alpa will soon be making an adapter for the ZD back. I expect others like Cambo and Kapture Group will soon follow.

Cheers,
Kumar
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Graham Mitchell
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« Reply #29 on: June 02, 2007, 05:50:33 PM »
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I certainly dont see greater dynamic range from my 16 bit phase one back.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=120821\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Bit depth and dynamic range are two totally different things. True 16-bit colour should give the user 4 times as many colours as 14-bit, which means smoother gradations.
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rainer_v
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« Reply #30 on: June 02, 2007, 05:53:01 PM »
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your phase back also has 14bit as all other actual mf backs too. the 16 is pure nominal count. 2 bits of the 16 are not used.
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rainer viertlböck
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Jack Varney
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« Reply #31 on: June 02, 2007, 07:12:00 PM »
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PSS says "...but also about the future (it did take mamiya 3? years to release this thing in the US!), ..."

It really was not one but two different companies that brought the Mamiya ZD and the MFDB to market. The sale of the camera group and the new firm getting up to speed certainly affected, if not lengthened, the process.

I think there is also question about the part played by the MAC Group in the process. Did they drag their feet or were there lenghty negotiation of issues holding up the introduction here? Key personell at MAC left during this time, too. Did they leave because Mamiya's future at MAC was in question? MAC did take their Mamiya forum down shortly after the transition. Was this an indication of a lack of committment to the line?

Let's give Mamiya's new ownership some time to organize and act before casting the die.  I am all for them. I love the 645 AFD. I've used other cameras as good, and considered better, including Rolleiflex (twin lens), Hasselelblad V, Topcon and Canon (film). For whatever reason, the Mamiya's have worked best for me.
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Jack Varney
pss
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« Reply #32 on: June 02, 2007, 08:49:18 PM »
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Bit depth and dynamic range are two totally different things. True 16-bit colour should give the user 4 times as many colours as 14-bit, which means smoother gradations.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=0\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

and all that information is in the shadows and that is where i see a difference between the canons, the ZD back and my phase back.....
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pss
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« Reply #33 on: June 02, 2007, 09:01:53 PM »
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your phase back also has 14bit as all other actual mf backs too. the 16 is pure nominal count. 2 bits of the 16 are not used.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=0\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


maybe..possibly....i don't even know exactly what this means...but i do know what i see and the differences i can tell....and to me the difference is there and worth the price......i have looked at ZD raw files before (before i bought my phase back) and the shadow detail looked muddy to me....the same thing that always bothered me about the canon files.....today i actually downloaded some more ZD raw files...same thing.....i am sure there is a lot that can be done with noise reduction software....but if the information isn't there in the first place, i don't want to make it up.....
i have always assumed that this "extra" depth/whatever was because of the extra pixel depth.....which btw is expotential not linear....the difference between 12 and 14 bit is huge (numerically) and even more so with 16bit.....and as far as i know the "missing" bits are always in the shadow areas......
i don't care about stats or numbers, but sometimes it helps to explain things.....this area is super personal and as always eveybody should make their own judgements....

either way the price of the ZD is great and the 1dsmkII is looking a little expensive (only when talking about absolute file quality at 100)...
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pss
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« Reply #34 on: June 02, 2007, 09:11:53 PM »
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PSS says "...but also about the future (it did take mamiya 3? years to release this thing in the US!), ..."

It really was not one but two different companies that brought the Mamiya ZD and the MFDB to market. The sale of the camera group and the new firm getting up to speed certainly affected, if not lengthened, the process.

I think there is also question about the part played by the MAC Group in the process. Did they drag their feet or were there lenghty negotiation of issues holding up the introduction here? Key personell at MAC left during this time, too. Did they leave because Mamiya's future at MAC was in question? MAC did take their Mamiya forum down shortly after the transition. Was this an indication of a lack of committment to the line?

Let's give Mamiya's new ownership some time to organize and act before casting the die.  I am all for them. I love the 645 AFD. I've used other cameras as good, and considered better, including Rolleiflex (twin lens), Hasselelblad V, Topcon and Canon (film). For whatever reason, the Mamiya's have worked best for me.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=0\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


i love mamiya too...i shoot with a 645afdII and a rzDII....i am excited about the new lenses....my concern is about the future of the Dback.....don't forget the piece they are releasing is 3 years old...so no development has gone into it or its' follow up......don't forget that phase and hass are also selling Dbacks at 7000$!....and those backs are 16 bit and show less noise at 400.....so for someone shooting commercially (or portrait), who does not need 20x24 fine art prints there are options out there and a big reason for a P20 might be to start buying into a system and trade up.....as far as i know mamiya has no announcements whatsoever about any future backs......if you are buying phase/hass/leaf/sinar you are buying years of experience and a more or less consistent upgrade path.....which is very important for workflow and piece of mind......
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Jack Varney
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« Reply #35 on: June 02, 2007, 09:19:32 PM »
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And I love my P45, soon to be a +, too! How important is it, do you think for Phase, that Mamiya be successful?
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Jack Varney
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« Reply #36 on: June 03, 2007, 04:28:36 AM »
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don't forget that phase and hass are also selling Dbacks at 7000$!....and those backs are 16 bit and show less noise at 400.....

As far as I know, not one of the backs has true 16bit, they are all 14bit converters, at least I remember the author of the "brumbaer" tools writing this, too. In the DSLR area only 2 cameras have 14bit color depth: the Fuji S3 (out of production)/S5, and now also the Canon Mark III.

Regards, Bernie
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Christopher
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« Reply #37 on: June 03, 2007, 04:58:13 AM »
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Don't know where you have these prices from but here in Germany I have to pay 10.000 EUR for the 16Mp back from Hass and 15.000 for the 17Mp Aptus 17, sorry but that is much more for much less...
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Graham Mitchell
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« Reply #38 on: June 03, 2007, 05:12:27 AM »
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In the DSLR area only 2 cameras have 14bit color depth: the Fuji S3 (out of production)/S5, and now also the Canon Mark III.

The Leica DMR is specified as 16-bit.
http://www.leica-camera.us/assets/file/dow...e=file_1166.pdf
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« Reply #39 on: June 03, 2007, 05:38:47 AM »
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".....don't forget that phase and hass are also selling Dbacks at 7000$!....and those backs are 16 bit and show less noise at 400....."

I get confused with all the sensor sizes but don't these cheaper backs from Phase, Leaf and Hasselblad have smaller sensors? That's going to be the selling point of the Mamiya, a bigger sensor at a smaller price.

Barrie
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