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Author Topic: handsdown review Mamiya ZD back  (Read 16397 times)
Frank Doorhof
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« on: June 06, 2007, 05:40:27 PM »
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WEBMASTER...
I have posted a link to my page with the review because I don't know if I break any rules by the large pictures.
If you want to copy paste feel free, but for safe keeping I used the link.

http://www.doorhof.nl/blog/index.php?topic...msg3225#msg3225


Greetings,
Frank
www.frankdoorhof.com
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uaiomex
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« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2007, 11:17:35 PM »
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Frank:

Thanks a lot for your prompt review.
I believe you when you say about ZD superiority over a Canon 5D.

It is hard to tell the whole story over the internet.
In your review, the ZD files look definetely better than those from the 5D.

However, nothing spectacular.
I concour with you that according to present standards the ZD back price is a steal.

Where does this statement put the 5D?
Best photography bargain of all times?

Thanks again, for your effort. I started myself considering going Mamiya instead of waiting for a bigger sensor CFV back.(Huh) - Who will get my hard earned pesos?

Time will tell.
Best
Eduardo
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eronald
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« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2007, 03:30:14 AM »
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Quote
Frank:

Thanks a lot for your prompt review.
I believe you when you say about ZD superiority over a Canon 5D.

It is hard to tell the whole story over the internet.
In your review, the ZD files look definetely better than those from the 5D.

However, nothing spectacular.
I concour with you that according to present standards the ZD back price is a steal.

Where does this statement put the 5D?
Best photography bargain of all times?

Thanks again, for your effort. I started myself considering going Mamiya instead of waiting for a bigger sensor CFV back.(Huh) - Who will get my hard earned pesos?

Time will tell.
Best
Eduardo
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=121529\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I don't want to say this too loudly, but the 5D files look like they could benefit re color and dharpness from some better Raw processing. Canon DPP with a small amount of sharpening will show what the camera can really do.
If you are using Mamiya software with the Mamiya, you should be using Canon software fro the Canon.
 When I moved my keepers from ACR to DPP somebody I know started talking of my "hyper-realistic images".

Anyway, the Mamiya images look fantastic.
You can use www.yousendit.com and forward the link to send us the Raw files, that would be really nice. My email is edmundronald at gmail dot com.

Edmund
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Frank Doorhof
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« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2007, 04:41:36 AM »
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Both files were handled with ACR from Adobe.
I did not wanted to have either one an advantage.

Today I will do a model session and than I will really know the story because that's my field of work
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awofinden
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« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2007, 07:09:20 AM »
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Although you can get a bit more out of the canon files by using DPP software, this test looks to me to pretty well show the generall difference in look of a big CCD compared to a small CMOS sensor.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2007, 07:09:38 AM by awofinden » Logged
BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2007, 07:25:59 AM »
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If you are using Mamiya software with the Mamiya...
 [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=121550\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Frank didn't use the Mamiya software, and you really wouldn't want to use it either...  There is a reason why Mamiya is shpping the back with Lightroom in the US...

ACR is a neutral choise, you can extract a bit more details from ZD files with Raw Developper on Mac.

Nice review by the way.

Cheers,
Bernard
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A few images online here!
David Anderson
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« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2007, 07:35:00 AM »
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Thanks for putting up the link to the shots.

Interesting to see the two cameras side by side - yes the Mamiya is good, but the 5D is good for the money as well..
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eronald
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« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2007, 07:49:29 AM »
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Thanks for putting up the link to the shots.

Interesting to see the two cameras side by side - yes the Mamiya is good, but the 5D is good for the money as well..
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=121584\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I did some 5D profiling tests, and shot some additional check images - and the 5D lent by Canon blew my own 1DsII and 1Ds out of the water with sharpness. I couldn't believe it.

Edmund
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paulhu
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« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2007, 07:50:53 AM »
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I have the Mamiya 645 AFD II with 35mm, 45mm, 80mm, 120mm, 150mm, and the two zoom lens.  My logical step is to get the ZD back for the money, and sell my Kodak Digital back.  I may later upgrade to Phase One back or something like that, but right now, I can use my  Hasselblad H1D as a backup. LOL.
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Frank Doorhof
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« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2007, 08:02:22 AM »
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Understand me correctly I think the 5D is handsdown the best DSLR on the market, rivaling the 1DsII in most cases, that's why I bought it instead of the 1DsII, one day with both was enough, the 5D files are cleaner and have a much nicer colorrendition.

What DOES stand out when comparing with the Mamiya is the cleanness of the detail, the 5D does look harsch and digital compared to the Mamiya (RAW without sharpening), and that was a surprise because the 5D uses a AA filter but still the mamiya looks so much more detailed.

It's funny.
It's like switching from a wonderful TFT monitor back to CRT.
First you think, oh my this monitor is softer, but after a few minutes you realise that you see MUCH more detail.

Especially in the church/anker shot you can see it clearly in the small flowers.
I never understood why landscape photographers were so putting down the DSLR's, now I understand completly

Just finished a model session (test) with the camera and will work on those shots tonight, what I have seen is stunning.
Manual focus is so much easier with the big viewfinder.
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awofinden
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« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2007, 08:12:55 AM »
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I did some 5D profiling tests, and shot some additional check images - and the 5D lent by Canon blew my own 1DsII and 1Ds out of the water with sharpness. I couldn't believe it.

Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=121587\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

that sounds interesting edmund, any chance of posting a side by side example?
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2007, 08:26:56 AM »
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I did some 5D profiling tests, and shot some additional check images - and the 5D lent by Canon blew my own 1DsII and 1Ds out of the water with sharpness. I couldn't believe it.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=121587\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Guys, I have been claiming for years that the D2x was sharper than the 1ds2 and nobody wanted to believe me because of those 4 miserable mP difference...

I hope that these new 5D results will contribute once for all to ancer the idea that MP count means little.

Cheers,
Bernard
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A few images online here!
markhout
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« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2007, 09:37:42 AM »
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Thanks a lot for your prompt review.
I believe you when you say about ZD superiority over a Canon 5D.

It is hard to tell the whole story over the internet.
In your review, the ZD files look definetely better than those from the 5D.

However, nothing spectacular.
I concour with you that according to present standards the ZD back price is a steal.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=121529\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thanks Frank - good job! Nice to see some well-exposed Dutch images. Not sure though if I can see in your pictures what you mean in terms of vast differences between the ZD and 5D. Seeing these images I personally rather veer towards the 5D than the ZD, bearing in mind other considerations such as portability, lens selection etc.

Thanks again, your efforts are much appreciated - am looking forward to more discussion on this.
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Frank Doorhof
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« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2007, 10:46:25 AM »
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8 bits internet version really doesn't do justice to the files.
16 bits tiff are breathtaking.
From the model shoot today I will post some tiffs up tonight for who is interested.
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Dustbak
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« Reply #14 on: June 07, 2007, 11:12:21 AM »
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Thanks Frank - good job! Nice to see some well-exposed Dutch images. Not sure though if I can see in your pictures what you mean in terms of vast differences between the ZD and 5D. Seeing these images I personally rather veer towards the 5D than the ZD, bearing in mind other considerations such as portability, lens selection etc.

Thanks again, your efforts are much appreciated - am looking forward to more discussion on this.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=121609\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


What is that? Are we Dutch Photographers known for our badly exposed images
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pss
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« Reply #15 on: June 07, 2007, 12:33:16 PM »
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am i the only person seeing what looks like HEAVY noise reduction in almost all the shots? muddy shadows? the files look almost the same as the 5D files....only bigger! the crop of the clocktower looks like watercolor to me with the supermuddy out of focus grey roof? infront.....the water in all the shots has a very strange "structure"....

again thanks for putting up this test....but it is a clear advertising for the 5D! take these files into GF and make up the size and there is little difference....i doubt i would see any difference in a printed 11x14 between both files without GF.....look at the red roof shingles....the detail is extremely watercolor like.....

maybe i am just crazy....

can't wait to see what this does to the models hair (especially in the transition from forhead into the hair).....please show a crop of this with one from the 5D...thanks
« Last Edit: June 07, 2007, 12:34:57 PM by pss » Logged

Frank Doorhof
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« Reply #16 on: June 07, 2007, 01:14:28 PM »
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Can't see what you mean, but maybe I'm not used to what you are using of course.
I did not use noisereduction and in the back it's off, also on the 5D it's off.

here some of the model shoot from today, and will update my blog review in about half an hour.

1.


2.


3.


4.


MvrGr.
Frank
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Frank Doorhof
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« Reply #17 on: June 07, 2007, 01:15:29 PM »
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By the way the blacks in the hair is something I use alot in my shots, I can add a reflector to open it up but that is NOT the fault of the back.
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Leping
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« Reply #18 on: June 07, 2007, 02:27:09 PM »
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With the newest ACR's deconvolution based sharpening tools (detail 45,
radius 0.5, amount 80, for example), with good lenses, on resolution
charts (up to 120lp/mm) the D2x almost doubles the 5D resolution,
because Nikon uses weaker AA filters.  The 5D and 1DsII have lower
noise, but for us landscape photographers D2x provides the best
per pixel sharpness, with good lens (more picky than the Canons since
the smaller pixel spacing).  I own and use both 5D and D2x and I am
not biased.  We even did a detailed comparison 5D/D2x/Contax 645,
and the conclusion is with careful RAW conversion (Raw Developer is
the first choice, DxO second, ACR is never good for landscapes) the
DSLRs reaches about 60-70% of drum scanned 645 Velvia film level
in resolution.

Also since the pixel spacing difference, they work on the different
regions of lens MTF, so at 4-10 pixel level the Canon's "micro" or
local detail contrast is higher, which in general tend to improves
the prints.  However, if you do a pre-sharpening USM such as
2.2/40/0 before the major USM or Smart Sharpening (which is
deconvolution based with "Lens Blur"), prints of the Nikon images
will look the same, although the step makes the noise issue little bit
even worse, which I don't care personally, since I paid DxO $60
for their "FilmPack" to ADD noise ("film grain" of selected "emulsion")
to my images to drastically enhance the "3D looking" as well as to
mask the digital demosiacing artifacts.  The 5D's ISO 50 mode is
quite wonderful for more vibrant color and higher contrast -- sorry
we are from the Velvia film background (and actually still shoot RVP
50 for 80% of time).

I have been talking to Charlie Cramer, the landscape master who
switched from 4x5 to Mamiya AFDII with the P45 back, and thinking
about jumping to the ZD back as my entry move.  One big factor
is the 12.4/12.8MP figure reduces to merely ~10MP when cropped
to 4x5, the ratio we still love and prefer and it is a bigger jump
from 10 to 22MP (46% increase of linear resolution from the D2x).
And nothing beats MF lens at wide angles -- as MR said many times
no 35mm wide lens reproduce the corner sharpness and the overall
distorsion-free and 3-D feeling of the MF/LF wide angle optics.

Hope the price of these cheap Mamiya 645 MF and AF lenses now in
the 2nd hand market will not go back up.  Shouldn't, since not every
one will pay the $7K for a ZD back, with the 1DsIII / D3x on the
horizen, correct?

Quote
Guys, I have been claiming for years that the D2x was sharper than the 1ds2 and nobody wanted to believe me because of those 4 miserable mP difference...

I hope that these new 5D results will contribute once for all to ancer the idea that MP count means little.

Cheers,
Bernard
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=121596\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
« Last Edit: June 07, 2007, 02:50:21 PM by LEPING » Logged

mcfoto
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« Reply #19 on: June 07, 2007, 09:57:04 PM »
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Hi Frank
Since you have the ZD back could you test it on a copy situation. For people archiving art work & documents. Just to check how even the back records, white paper would be a good start. Thanks for your testing so far.I own a ZD camera & a 5D. I only use the ZD for people & landscapes in the 50-100 iso range.

Thanks Denis
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Denis Montalbetti
Montalbetti+Campbell
www.montalbetticampbell.com
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