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Author Topic: Rollei Hy6: official press-release /Jun 12, 2007/  (Read 25830 times)
uaiomex
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« Reply #20 on: June 14, 2007, 08:30:56 PM »
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Sorry PSS, I'm not picking on you. I forgot.

You said, the Hy6 is just an updated 6008, are you sure? I thought it was designed from a totally different chassis.
Thierry !!!  Please enlight.

Best

Eduardo

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is that what you are waiting for? it seems like you have been wanting to get into DMF for a WHILE now....

but i really doubt that the 48x48 sensor will be anywhere near the ZD or the canons when it will be announced, so i would start saving up.....
it was easy for F&H to make the Hy6 a 6x6.....they just updated the 6008.....

IF a larger sensor comes out, hasselblad will simply build a new camera for it...making the lenses should not be too hard (they already used to make them)....yes it will be expensive and yes it will be incompatible, but by offering trade-ins they can deal with that....
but either way...the larger sensor (larger then 645) would probably not fit in the Hy6 either, i doubt anyone would make a larger sensor in square format....
a 6x7 sensor...now that sounds interesting.....for RZ, fuji 680 and all 4x5 cameras......
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yaya
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« Reply #21 on: June 14, 2007, 11:58:16 PM »
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it was easy for F&H to make the Hy6 a 6x6.....they just updated the 6008.....

Hmm....the lens mount is the same, yes. And the communication protocol is vaguely based on the 6008's.

New chasis, new finders, new controls, new power source and power management, new back mount, new RGB sensor, New mirror & dampening (and a good one at that), new AF sensor...

So NO, they haven't "just updated the 6008"...
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thsinar
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« Reply #22 on: June 15, 2007, 12:26:49 AM »
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I would definitively like to "clean" this idea from the table that the Sinar Hy 6 is just an updated 6008. It is by far not that at all. The input and ideas to build this new camera came from Jenoptik's R&D, as wel as from Sinar's R&D.

And again, F&H have been the manufacturer of this Hy6 camera, nothing more.

best regards,
Thierry

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it was easy for F&H to make the Hy6 a 6x6.....they just updated the 6008.....

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« Last Edit: June 15, 2007, 05:52:10 AM by thsinar » Logged

Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #23 on: June 15, 2007, 01:26:06 AM »
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I would definitively like to "clean" this idea from the table that the Sinar Hy 6 is just an updated 6008. It is by not that at all. The input and ideas to build this new camera came from Jenoptik's R&D, as wel as from Sinar's R&D.

And again, F&H have been the manufacturer of this Hy6 camera, nothing more.

best regards,
Thierry
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sorry, i am not a technician or know anything about that.....what i meant was that they built on the same idea....the body, the grip...of course they took that idea and improved on it in every aspect....at least i hope....the Hy6 is a logical step up from the 6008....i did not mean to insult anyone here......the 6008 is a pretty amazing camera and if my P30 would fit on it, i would still be there......
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Carl Glover
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« Reply #24 on: June 15, 2007, 01:35:56 AM »
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What's wrong with an updated 6008? It's a fantastic camera.

The hy6 is manufactured by the same company in partnership with two others.

It's almost as though Rollei/Jenoptik/Sinar skipped several generations of changes to the 6008 and applied it all at once.

Maybe it would be wiser to say that the hy6 is 'influenced' by the 6008 - it would seem to be a sensible starting point. Why start from scratch when there's a fully electronic medium-format camera that's had a proven record for decades to use as a point of departure? After all, it takes the same lenses and it's 6x6...

The result of three grown-up companies in dialogue with each other and sharing their combined skills.

Sounds sensible to me.
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thsinar
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« Reply #25 on: June 15, 2007, 05:57:16 AM »
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nothing wrong at all and no offense from anybody. Yes, the Sinar Hy6 is obviously influenced somehow by the 6008, when some 6008 features like the positionable handgrip, the lenses and the 6x6 format have made their proves over the years. But beside this, the camera has been completely re-thought, without looking back at the 6008, and much input came from Jenoptik's and Sinar's people.

Best regards,
Thierry

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What's wrong with an updated 6008? It's a fantastic camera.

The hy6 is manufactured by the same company in partnership with two others.

It's almost as though Rollei/Jenoptik/Sinar skipped several generations of changes to the 6008 and applied it all at once.

Maybe it would be wiser to say that the hy6 is 'influenced' by the 6008 - it would seem to be a sensible starting point. Why start from scratch when there's a fully electronic medium-format camera that's had a proven record for decades to use as a point of departure? After all, it takes the same lenses and it's 6x6...

The result of three grown-up companies in dialogue with each other and sharing their combined skills.

Sounds sensible to me.
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« Last Edit: June 15, 2007, 05:57:50 AM by thsinar » Logged

Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #26 on: June 15, 2007, 03:06:12 PM »
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What's wrong with an updated 6008? It's a fantastic camera.

The hy6 is manufactured by the same company in partnership with two others.

It's almost as though Rollei/Jenoptik/Sinar skipped several generations of changes to the 6008 and applied it all at once.

Maybe it would be wiser to say that the hy6 is 'influenced' by the 6008 - it would seem to be a sensible starting point. Why start from scratch when there's a fully electronic medium-format camera that's had a proven record for decades to use as a point of departure? After all, it takes the same lenses and it's 6x6...

The result of three grown-up companies in dialogue with each other and sharing their combined skills.

Sounds sensible to me.
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Nicely put.
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Geoff
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« Reply #27 on: June 22, 2007, 10:46:36 PM »
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It is worrying to see that an "official" Sinar representative elects to repeatedly spread misinformation. Apart from the fact that the Rolleiflex Hy6 will be available alongside with the Sinar branded version in several parts of the world (Germany, just to mention one important country), there is a lot to be said about the history of this camera design that is bluntly denied here.

The development of the Hy6 was initiated by Rollei Fototechnic GmbH and was originally planned as a 4.5x6 camera long before Franke & Heidecke GmbH was founded. The motorized Rolleiflex 6000 4.5x6 cassette is a result of that early research. It is the same 4.5x6 cassette that is used on the Hy6 now. Under F&H the R&D work was continued with the same former Rollei engineers. The electronics were developed by Rollei in cooperation with an independent company in Switzerland (no daughter of Sinar or Jenoptik). Rollei searched for a partner from the digital back industry to complement the Hy6 development. Jenoptik joined (with a good sum of development finances), because they saw opportunities to use their daughter Sinar for distribution and for selling more digibacks with the new camera under the brand name Sinar. Later on Leaf joined the party as they were also interested to buy the camera for their own backs. This is the story. There was NO DEVELOPING from Sinar. Maybe just some wishes for features etc.

Best regards, EPd
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this goes along with what i have heard over the last years, when asking rollei people about future models.....i have mentioned this here as well but was told that this wasn't true.....
thanks....whoever you are...
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thsinar
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« Reply #28 on: June 23, 2007, 12:06:35 AM »
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I won't reply on this but just refer to our Sinar m and suggest to have a close look on the features and menus of the 2 cameras. Further, I have never denied that the basics came from the 6008!

EPd: I don't think that it is worth to start a war here. The Hy6 was an order from Jenoptik to F&H.

Thierry

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It is worrying to see that an "official" Sinar representative elects to repeatedly spread misinformation. Apart from the fact that the Rolleiflex Hy6 will be available alongside with the Sinar branded version in several parts of the world (Germany, just to mention one important country), there is a lot to be said about the history of this camera design that is bluntly denied here.

The development of the Hy6 was initiated by Rollei Fototechnic GmbH and was originally planned as a 4.5x6 camera long before Franke & Heidecke GmbH was founded. The motorized Rolleiflex 6000 4.5x6 cassette is a result of that early research. It is the same 4.5x6 cassette that is used on the Hy6 now. Under F&H the R&D work was continued with the same former Rollei engineers. The electronics were developed by Rollei in cooperation with an independent company in Switzerland (no daughter of Sinar or Jenoptik). Rollei searched for a partner from the digital back industry to complement the Hy6 development. Jenoptik joined (with a good sum of development finances), because they saw opportunities to use their daughter Sinar for distribution and for selling more digibacks with the new camera under the brand name Sinar. Later on Leaf joined the party as they were also interested to buy the camera for their own backs. This is the story. There was NO DEVELOPING from Sinar. Maybe just some wishes for features etc.

Best regards, EPd
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #29 on: June 23, 2007, 06:58:38 AM »
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I won't reply on this but just refer to our Sinar m and suggest to have a close look on the features and menus of the 2 cameras. Further, I have never denied that the basics came from the 6008!

EPd: I don't think that it is worth to start a war here. The Hy6 was an order from Jenoptik to F&H.

Thierry
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As former 6008 professional user, after having the chance to hold the Hy6, I must say the new camera is very different from the 6XXX series. It is a lot lighter and smaller, the analog switch/dial/menu mostly stay on the lefthand side of the camera and can be easily access even wearing a glove (if out in the field in winter for example or in a lab) or in total darkness, this is something worth mentioning a camera designed to have the simplest layout for a new user to get start instantly. The aperture and speed control (wheel) on the grip that is also easily accessible. I would say I prefer the rotabale grip of Hy6 over the 6XXX since it is more ergonomic, and also because the camera is lighter (even with digital back attached, e75LV).  I made a quick comparison against Contax 645+P45 and H3D39, I would put Hy6 and Contax 645 P45 few steps above H3D39.  On the other hand, the Hy6 includes a quick access from its analog switch to let use to get into a depth of custom/optional functions is a more friendlier approach than the complicate menu from H3D.
As camera users as we all are, I guessed we need to focus on what a camera has became and look forward to spend some time to get use to the tool on hand and make good pictures. In this regard, I think Hy6 is a cleverly developed camera that almost anyone with basic understanding on today's camera can pick up and start shoot without spend much time on instructions.  
I would say Hy6 is a camera came in time when there is a lot confusion on medium format and a very competitive platform for existing users and new users to consider. With the rich collection of existing Rollei/Zeiss/Schneider lenses already available or the AFD verisons to be converted, it might be the strongest digital platform today.
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Khun_K
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« Reply #30 on: June 23, 2007, 10:27:09 AM »
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The Hy6 is no more similar to a Sinar M than it is to a Hasselblad H or a Mamiya 645AF. Hasselblad and Mamiya did not do R&D for the Hy6 project either. The concept of the Hy6 has everything to do with the Rolleiflex 6000 series. The main bulk of that system was formed by the transport motor and the battery. By removing the motor and moving the battery from the body into the grip the basic shape of the Hy6 was formed. Problems to be solved were how to drive the mirror now that no drive in the body was available to do that and the transport of the film. A number of different Rollei patents regarding direct mirror drive mechanisms, dating from the late nineties/early 2000's, shows a trail of this development. And as said before: the self-driven 4.5x6 Rollei back was another development directly initiated by the future need for a camera without a built in motor. It's a design from the early/mid-nineties and also made motorized transport on the Rollei X-Act TS-camera possible.

Due to the lack of funds Rollei was not able to finish the 645 camera development on their own. When Jenoptik joined as a business partner the camera was code-named Rolleiflex JMF645AF. Until halfway 2006 this was the name of the camera, despite the fact that it could house a still non-existent 6x6 cassette as well. (The self driven 6x6 film cassette is under development now.)

Thierry, you say you don't want a war over this. Neither do I. But it would have been wise if you had not inflicted a lot of pain to the F&H engineers who made this entire camera possible by investing in it with their whole heart and soul for years. You denied their crucial role by saying: "F&H have been the manufacturer of this Hy6 camera, nothing more", as this is simply not true. I am posting here because these people have a right to be credited for what they did and not see their effort stolen by some salesman who puts them in a corner.

Regards,
EPd
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Well, I have no knowledge of the history behind the Hy6 but trying it, whoever did it and made it to the market deserve high credit. It cleverly put a camera that is both simple and sophisticated.  And from what I can see, offer some great possibilities for future development of exciting functions.
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thsinar
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« Reply #31 on: June 23, 2007, 11:41:47 AM »
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EPd,

Why not post under your real name since you seem to have so much knowledge about it?

"The Hy6 is no more similar to a Sinar m ....": we know that the basic concept comes from the 6008, but I was not speaking about this.  It happens that I have some knowledge too.
Fact is that know-how from the Sinar m is behind the Hy6 (i.e. focus-trap and other features, without elaborating). Nobody wants to offend "your" engineers and they have done a great job with their 6000 series. But that you write that the whole concept of the Hy6 has everything to do with the Rolleiflex 6000 series will certainly offend some other engineers.

BTW: I am a photographer, not a salesman.

Best regards,
Thierry

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The Hy6 is no more similar to a Sinar M than it is to a Hasselblad H or a Mamiya 645AF. Hasselblad and Mamiya did not do R&D for the Hy6 project either. The concept of the Hy6 has everything to do with the Rolleiflex 6000 series.
Regards,
EPd
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #32 on: June 23, 2007, 08:29:45 PM »
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EPd,

Too easy, that way, to post anonymous. It has nothing to do with getting credit for ones own name, but rather with the possibility to be able to speak at the same "eye level", if you see what I mean.

No need also to remind my introducing post: I have it well in memory and don't feel having betrayed it in any way. As you, I have no doubt about my own words. Be assured that I have made sure that my information was correct, before posting it.

We agree on one point: live and let live it!

Best regards,
Thierry

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Thierry,

I have no doubt that my words will hold true over time, but I'm not posting here to get any credit to my own name.

Maybe now and then you should have a look at your own initial statements when you introduced yourself to this forum in December 2006:
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/lofive...php/t13504.html

Oh, and please elaborate us if you have anything to say that might be of interest to us photographers. Only just make sure the information is correct. It is to nobody's interest to be misinformed, except for those who'd want the Hy6 would never see the light of day. So please live and let live.

Regards,
EPd
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #33 on: June 24, 2007, 03:23:41 AM »
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(The self driven 6x6 film cassette is under development now.)

Regards,
EPd
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Is the 6x6 a definite future film back? Is it being discussed on the drawing board only or have feasable prototypes been built already? I still like to shoot film often but like many people on this thread have been watching the development of this camera very closely and will not sell some of my existing kit and buy this camera unless it has a 6x6 cassette. I like and shoot square a lot. It would seem a bit daft to NOT develop this cassette as the camera's shape is essentially square and was designed with square in mind. Or was the rotatable 6x4.5 back a higher priority design decision that influenced the square shape of this camera?

I also hope the film cassette is not as pricey as hasselblad's...

Thierry, I understand if you can't make any more comments about this then you have already.

Thanks

Nik.
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eronald
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« Reply #34 on: June 24, 2007, 05:23:55 AM »
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I seem to remember seeing a film cassette at Photokina. I assume it was 6x6.

Edmund

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Is the 6x6 a definite future film back? Is it being discussed on the drawing board only or have feasable prototypes been built already? I still like to shoot film often but like many people on this thread have been watching the development of this camera very closely and will not sell some of my existing kit and buy this camera unless it has a 6x6 cassette. I like and shoot square a lot. It would seem a bit daft to NOT develop this cassette as the camera's shape is essentially square and was designed with square in mind. Or was the rotatable 6x4.5 back a higher priority design decision that influenced the square shape of this camera?

I also hope the film cassette is not as pricey as hasselblad's...

Thierry, I understand if you can't make any more comments about this then you have already.

Thanks

Nik.
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Edmund Ronald, Ph.D. 
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« Reply #35 on: June 24, 2007, 01:36:32 PM »
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As a new owner of a Sinar M with the AF module and as a user of Rollei 6008 System , all I can say that Sinar AF and exposure control works MUCH better. If the Sinar M electronics was incorporated in the stripped 6008 body I cannot see how this Sinar Hy6  fails. It will make a modern camera with the best AF in Medium Format.
Yevgeny  
Quote from: thsinar,Jun 23 2007, 09:06 AM
I won't reply on this but just refer to our Sinar m and suggest to have a close look on the features and menus of the 2 cameras. Further, I have never denied that the basics came from the 6008!

E
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« Reply #36 on: June 24, 2007, 02:27:45 PM »
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And here you see the Hy6 with a Sinarback and the 6x4.5 film back and adapter frame detached:
[attachment=2677:attachment]
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that 4560? back for the 6008 (and now the Hy6) is a brilliant solution.....no other film back comes even close to simple, elegant, small, perfect filmhandling.....also the included dark-slide....just way above what everybody else is doing...and was doing 10 years ago when the dark slide came out (or even longer?)
anyway....i am glad to see that the Hy6 is hitting the market...

to me it is obvious that it is a logical improvement to the 6008...trimmed of its motor on the bottom...added functionality on the handle, but keeping all controls where they just fall into your hands....same as with the 6008....

i am very excited about the new AF and the new dampened mirror....i wonder is there will finally be a worthwhile MF autofocus and if they dampened the slap from the 6008, handheld to about 1/15 should be absolutely possible.....add to that the fastest MF lenses with the best glass available......this IS the system to beat......

but i guess so was the 6008 when it came out...

i will say it again.....Hy6 phase support badly needed....
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nicolaasdb
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« Reply #37 on: June 26, 2007, 02:42:26 AM »
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who cares how fantastic the camera looks.....how is the focussing?? and what is it going to cost? In the end the back records the image and photoshop does the rest..if you suck as a photographer a better camera/back etc is not going to help you.

So:

1. how is the focusing (compared to hassy and afdII)
2. price (camera/lensen access)
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Khun_K
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« Reply #38 on: June 27, 2007, 02:05:24 AM »
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who cares how fantastic the camera looks.....how is the focussing?? and what is it going to cost? In the end the back records the image and photoshop does the rest..if you suck as a photographer a better camera/back etc is not going to help you.

So:

1. how is the focusing (compared to hassy and afdII)
2. price (camera/lensen access)
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If the camera is about image making I think it does matter to some, the design of a camera is always a value to itself, it is a subjective issue but certain I will wish my camera looks good and can produce top quality.
From my experience with Hy6, the AF is without doubt as responsive as H3D and a tab better than Contax 645 for speed, although not as quiet. For me, Contax 645 is acceptable, so I am comfortable to comment Hy6 performance on AF is more than acceptable. And I think it is fair to say the Hy6 is at least as fast as H3D if not faster. I don't know about AFDII but from my earlier experience on the earlier model, I think Hy6 is faster. As on accuracy matter, I don't have enough experience on Hy6 to comment.
As for cost, it depends on how much a photographer can charge for his work to justify the cost and how dependable and durable the camera system and its warranty and so on, the photographer has to make justification by themselves.  I do not know the suggested price for Hy6 system, but I guess if the price is around what other systems are charging, I think it is fair.
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thsinar
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« Reply #39 on: June 27, 2007, 11:46:21 PM »
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Here some images of the Sinar Hy6 with the viewfinder.

Thierry
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Thierry Hagenauer
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