Ad
Ad
Ad
Pages: [1] 2 3 »   Bottom of Page
Print
Author Topic: z3100 Colour Issue  (Read 13728 times)
SeanPuckett
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 245


WWW
« on: June 14, 2007, 04:38:30 PM »
ReplyReply

I got on the fone today with HP Canada and spoke to someone helpful, however we didn't get to the bottom of the issue.  Here's a picture which shows what's going on.

Basically, I get bad colour if I choose "application managed colour" in the driver and try to have my RIP do colour management.  It's consistent no matter what app I print with, no matter what ICC profile I use, no matter what paper is chosen.  It prints too dark and too saturated.  Gloss media isn't so bad -- in fact if you weren't printing portraits for picky clients you might miss the effect -- but uncoated matte media is where it really shows itself (I'm guessing because of the reduced gamut).

The tech suggested I try printing from the Mac to eliminate windows OS / windows driver problems, and I'll give that a stab tomorrow.  But it's not a long-term solution, and he doesn't suggest that it is.

I really don't remember this being a problem on the old 4.x firmware/driversuite.  
But there's no way to go back.



I'm upset because this is eating into production time and material.
Shouting at the guy won't help, though.
Logged

Panascape
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 215


« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2007, 04:48:34 PM »
ReplyReply

Sean, I am trying to do some testing with this as most of the media settings seem to print too saturated with the lastest firmware.

My beta media settings that I used when testing with HP still print ok (reds are too magenta) so I am using these for nearly all my prints.

I must say that I am fast losing confidence in HP and I am not alone in this.

Robert
« Last Edit: June 14, 2007, 05:39:29 PM by Panascape » Logged
Christopher
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 944


WWW
« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2007, 05:02:30 PM »
ReplyReply

As posted here I am also not very happy with the results I'm getting and slowly getting kind of upset on spending so much money on a printer which still is not able to deliver good results.
Logged

Panascape
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 215


« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2007, 05:07:43 PM »
ReplyReply

Currently the only "good" results I have seen are from 3100's driven by Wasatch and GMG rips and this is becuase these rip vendors chose to drive the z3100 in halftone mode which means that they contreol the colour mixing.

Currently most of the others, up till now, and the RGB driver rely on HP to do the colour mixing and the results speak for themselves.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2007, 05:14:35 PM by Panascape » Logged
SeanPuckett
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 245


WWW
« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2007, 05:50:28 PM »
ReplyReply

I keep asking myself, "why do you pursue this if using the printer/driver to manage colour delivers acceptable results?"  And I answer myself...

1) because it's only acceptable with prints that don't push the gamut too much.  Thankfully, I can ship my wedding and portrait prints, and some of my B&W prints.  But there's no way my high saturation stuff is acceptable -- it turns turtle at the gamut edge and the hues change terribly.

2) because, even if it was acceptable all of the time -- that's not the way it's supposed to work.  Rendering Intent is a very important decision and not one to be left to the printer.  Colour spaces are too important to be left to the printer/driver.  I can't resign myself to an sRGB workflow; that's totally unacceptable.

I see some of the colours coming out of the machine with each test print and I fall in love with it all over again.  The blues are almost electric, and the pinks of some of my floral prints fairly scream off the paper -- but they are the wrong blues and the wrong pinks, because the printer's rendering intent is inappropriate and the colour space is wrong.  I want to print those colours when my artwork indicates, and at no other time!

I like the printer mechanism, although I can see myself creating some sort of roll-feed cover with velcro and some canvas.  I got too much dust in my studio to have media sitting out.  But man, these colour issues are driving me batty.  I got lectures to prepare for, prints to finalize, software to write, business plans to attend to, and, uh, that photography thing .... and I'm spending my time running the same set of six prints over and over again to see "is this any better? how about now?"

When this is over, a comp roll or two of media and some ink would be nice.  But I'll never get the time back.
Logged

Panascape
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 215


« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2007, 05:55:33 PM »
ReplyReply

Sean I know how you feel. I am few hundred hours down the line testing and I just don't want to waste more time, money, media and inks (about a set and a half all in all) testing until HP can prove to me that there is something worth testing and that is not happening.

Robert
Logged
Charles Gast
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 250


« Reply #6 on: June 14, 2007, 09:26:37 PM »
ReplyReply

Hp needs to either devote the needed resources into getting this printer going or just go back to the pie chart and graph printing buisness.  It is such a shame. I can't help but think this machine has high potential as an Epson Killer.  I am worried that the managment has moved their engineering resources onto their next product and orphaned this one.  I've seen it before in other technologies.  I most certainly hope I'm wrong.
The latest firmware release is so messed up it seems they just yacked it up without true regard for the outcome. "We kept our promise. Heres the new firmware, now go away and be happy already"
  Wrong
Logged
Roscolo
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 621


« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2007, 09:36:47 PM »
ReplyReply

I have had no problems with the z3100 or the new firmware.

I printed a few photos with saturated bold colors. MAYBE they looked slightly darker than what was on my monitor, but I have been slack and haven't calibrated my monitor in about 3 weeks. Prints were made on Kodak Rapid Dry Lustre. Previous prints made on Kodak Rapid Dry Glossy were spot on.

I recently printed some prints of paintings that have saturated bold primary colors. Red and other colors are dead on. These prints were made on Innova Cold Press Art.

I always use Application Managed Color.

Not saying the problem doesn't exist, I'm just not seeing it so far with images I'm printing.
Logged
Christopher
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 944


WWW
« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2007, 11:28:53 PM »
ReplyReply

This is really the sad part. The printer does really not performe as it should, but still there is nearly NO review out there, which really looks at the problems. Funny thing, it's really not that hard to see... Just print nearly any pircture with saturated red in it and compare it with an Epson. (Matt paper)

At that point I wasted so much money on media and ink, testing, that it really would have been cheaper buying an Epson and switching between Matt black and Photo black. At least on Epson both media deliver good results.

Now I know it sounds really bad, but one has to understand that after owning that printer for such a long time, with in the End nothing really happened from HP side, it's really getting frustrated.

AND YES the printer is cabable of producing better results, just look at some halftone RIPs. They are producing Epson killer results. Just don't feel like have to investing a tone of money to get something which really should be coming with a 7.000EUR printer...
« Last Edit: June 14, 2007, 11:32:50 PM by Christopher » Logged

SeanPuckett
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 245


WWW
« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2007, 06:33:18 AM »
ReplyReply

Roscolo,

It has been suggested to me that certain paper types do not suffer from the colour issues of the new firmware.  More specifically, if you created a custom paper with a particular paper definition that wasn't updated by the new firmware, then these colour issues won't afflict you.

So, what paper definition are you using for these papers that you say work just fine with the latest firmware and application managed colour?  Because I'd like to try them myself.

-s
Logged

SeanPuckett
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 245


WWW
« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2007, 07:44:27 AM »
ReplyReply

More samples, from HP Professional Satin

The most important thing to take away from these images is this: ICC profiles are intended to describe the output capabilities of a device and provide guidance on rendering reproducible colour on that device.  Unfortunately, when using application managed colour with the latest firmware, ICC profiles do not produce reproducible colour, and in fact result in colour that is very bad, as the portrait shows.  Note the subject's skin tone on the right side of the face in particular.  The driver print is far better than the application managed print -- but see the floral print!



Relying on the printer to do it right is not an acceptable solution either, as the floral print shows.  The driver print shows very bad out-of-gamut colour mapping, resulting in an unsalable image.  



My expectation is that the prints on the left -- application managed -- should have the best colour, always comparable to if not superior to the prints on the right -- printer managed -- because that is what ICC profiles are supposed to accomplish.

The z3100's latest firmware is turning years of colour management experience into useless handwaving.  When will I have a printer that I can use?

(All prints scanned using epson perfection 4990 with identical settings)
Logged

Panascape
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 215


« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2007, 07:57:39 AM »
ReplyReply

Sean, if your are using HP's profiling system , try switching to a system that is not based on Gretag Software.

The only media setting that I can get anywhere close to useable colour is my Beta Super Heavy Weight Coated Paper setting.

Robert
« Last Edit: June 15, 2007, 07:59:08 AM by Panascape » Logged
SeanPuckett
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 245


WWW
« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2007, 08:47:46 AM »
ReplyReply

Further bafflement as to HP's choices.

Compare the sRGB colourspace against the output gamut of the z3100 on gloss/satin media as measured by third-party spectro.  There are large areas of output colour produced by the inkset that are are outside of sRGB -- even outside of AdobeRGB.  However, when using "driver managed" colour, you must map your image to either sRGB or AdobeRGB for the driver to properly understand your colours.  

Thus, printer-managed colour denies you access to some of the most saturated colours the printer can mechanically produce.  Particularly (and unsurprisingly to those who have read this forum for some time), deep reds, purples and cyan and light yellow/orange.  So, if you want to know where your "reds" went, they got eaten by the driver during the enforced sRGB conversion.

This is why "application managed" colour, which handles colourspace translation from imagespace to inkspace in a true L*a*b* or XYZ environment, is the only truly acceptable colour management solution.

I am slow to anger, but my momentum is building.
Trying alternate profiling tools now, but I have little hope.
Logged

marcsitkin
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 125


WWW
« Reply #13 on: June 15, 2007, 08:58:07 AM »
ReplyReply

Sean


QImage is not a RIP, it's a helper app that uses the HP printer driver. We are using this setup and getting very good results.

Could you check the settings by accessing the driver properties from QImage?

Make sure that the Advanced>Graphic>Image Color management>ICM Method is set to ICM disabled.

This should allow QImage to handle color management properly, as long as the proper source and output profiles are set up in QImage, and the color tab setting for the printer is set for app managed color.

I was lucky enough to attend the Color Management Forum that GATF sponsors in 2005. One of the most common problems people were having was tracking down issues due to  color management being applied multiple times in a workflow. It's the first thing I check when I have issues.

Regards,

Marc Sitkin
Logged

Regards,

Marc Sitkin
www.digitalmomentum.com
SeanPuckett
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 245


WWW
« Reply #14 on: June 15, 2007, 09:20:02 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote
Make sure that the Advanced>Graphic>Image Color management>ICM Method is set to ICM disabled.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122974\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
This is correctly configured, and has been during the life of these problems.  I appreciate the double-check, though.  I'd be thrilled if it was just a simple matter of an incorrect setting in some obscure property page.
Logged

SeanPuckett
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 245


WWW
« Reply #15 on: June 15, 2007, 01:17:53 PM »
ReplyReply

I've just finished testing this with Photoshop on the Mac and the problem is the same.   Indeed, the prints in both situations look the same as the ones from Windows/QImage.  Even when using the HP Photosmart plug-in (which seems to me to be just a wrapper around some of the uglier parts of the Mac printing UI instead of a new output pipe, so no surprise).
Logged

Roscolo
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 621


« Reply #16 on: June 15, 2007, 02:01:24 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote
Roscolo,

It has been suggested to me that certain paper types do not suffer from the colour issues of the new firmware.  More specifically, if you created a custom paper with a particular paper definition that wasn't updated by the new firmware, then these colour issues won't afflict you.

So, what paper definition are you using for these papers that you say work just fine with the latest firmware and application managed colour?  Because I'd like to try them myself.

-s
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=122953\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I created custom paper and profiled for Kodak Rapid Dry Glossy (Photo Gloss Paper). I created custom paper and profiled for Kodak Rapid Dry Lustre (Photo Semi-Gloss/Satin Paper).  I created custom paper and profiled for Innova Cold Press Art (Thick Fine Art Paper >250g/m2).

For the Kodak Papers - Gloss Enhancer On. On these papers I printed several nature images of colorful snakes for a client - colors, including some reddish-oranges in one of the snakes - were virtually a perfect match to my monitor. Photos were perfect.

On the Innova Cold Press I printed several paintings featuring bold colors - including reds, blues, puples - and these were spot on perfect as well and looked at least as good as the exact same files that were previously printed on an Epson before I scrapped it for the z3100.

I used Application Managed Color and the appropriate custom profile for each paper, although on one of the snake photos I used Printer Managed color and the result was still a match.

Maybe someone should upload one of the problem files and we should all print the same file and see if we all get the same result. I am willing to do this and I'm sure others are as well if it helps get to the source of the problem. Could be the problem could exist on my machine and it has just not made itself obvious in the images I am printing.

BTW, I'm not using QImage. I'm not using a RIP. Just printing from Photoshop CS2.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2007, 02:03:24 PM by Roscolo » Logged
neil snape
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1432


WWW
« Reply #17 on: June 15, 2007, 03:41:20 PM »
ReplyReply

I'm a little lost on this one.
Maybe everyone is a little lost with all the firmware updates. Untold amounts of test chart printing filled many cubic volumes with  media and ink went by on all these firmware updates.
I did not see anything drastic though .
I received a shipping version of the 44" non PS this week. I set it up, hopefully stripped out all the beta software, and updated from the install DVD. No problems with the firmware update, nor software, nor utility updates. Mac PC both went fine.
I profiled ID Gloss, and Satin with APS. The output was spot on compared to the older printer with the same set ups (exception being it is a PS driver).
One thing I've always seen is a lighter print on the printer colour management. It's not stated in the docs but the printer colour managment is taking into account your source profile, and printing to LUT's not through ICC profiles. Even if you profile through the built in profiler, the ICC profiles are only used if you use Photoshop CM.
The profiles screen portion of the return of the Z printer profiles has not been that good, much better with APS or even better with external profiles.
If I had the same media as you do I could send you a profile and you could validate the proximity of colours. I can't see any other way. If it is a question of firmware it does seem odd if you are creating new profiles for the media set ups. If the LUT's correspond to old firmware, yet the new profiles are created on the new oms files then there would be one answer. The screen to print match if you use a decent monitor calibrator should be at least close . I have always found the prints to be better than a soft preview using the said profile , all in all matching the non screen preview in Photoshop well (except on matte of course due to the weaker black point).
Hope this helps, and hope you can find something to get a better match.
Logged
rdonson
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1420


WWW
« Reply #18 on: June 15, 2007, 04:25:43 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote
Maybe someone should upload one of the problem files and we should all print the same file and see if we all get the same result. I am willing to do this and I'm sure others are as well if it helps get to the source of the problem.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=123014\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I'd be happy to help and print some test images on my base Z3100.  I can print from Qimage, CS2 or CS3.  Unfortunately I don't have HP Pro Satin paper.  I do have HP Instant-Dry Satin.
Logged

[span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'][span style='font-family:Arial'][span style='font-family:Geneva'][span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%']Regards,
Ron[/span][/span][/span][/span]
SeanPuckett
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 245


WWW
« Reply #19 on: June 15, 2007, 04:30:21 PM »
ReplyReply

I've created a TIFF file in ProPhoto space with the above images and four other images I use to gauge soft proofs and colour accuracy.  It's sized to fit on a 24" wide roll taking up 5 inches of space.  3.7MB Test File

Curious to see the results others get, especially in the skin tones.

Now, if someone would send me a RIP to test....
« Last Edit: June 15, 2007, 04:46:43 PM by SeanPuckett » Logged

Pages: [1] 2 3 »   Top of Page
Print
Jump to:  

Ad
Ad
Ad