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Author Topic: croping  (Read 4852 times)
wmchauncey
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« on: June 19, 2007, 07:28:03 PM »
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I'm new at this photography thing and I have trouble with image composition and end up doing severe croping.  Because of this, often my images are to small to use.  A costly wide angle lens is one answer but still with a 10 MP camera you can't crop much and get a good size print.
An alternative would be to take many images, photomerge them, then crop to you hearts content.  Is my theory sound?
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Alexis Alvarez
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« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2007, 08:45:37 PM »
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You say you're new to photography; what is it you're trying to "say" with your landscapes?  What are you aiming for? What do you know about composition?  

There are some excellent resources on the web (see below) -- you might want to take a look at these and then give yourself some time to learn how to compose a picture well in the first place -- it's better to try for the right picture, than to have to fix it later.  


http://www.colorpilot.com/comp_rules.html
http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/digita..._editing/118521
http://photoinf.com/General/AGFA/Photo_Composition.html

Good luck.
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wmchauncey
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« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2007, 10:03:40 PM »
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You say you're new to photography; what is it you're trying to "say" with your landscapes?  What are you aiming for? What do you know about composition? 

There are some excellent resources on the web (see below) -- you might want to take a look at these and then give yourself some time to learn how to compose a picture well in the first place -- it's better to try for the right picture, than to have to fix it later. 
http://www.colorpilot.com/comp_rules.html
http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/digita..._editing/118521
http://photoinf.com/General/AGFA/Photo_Composition.html

Good luck.
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Alexis my child, you sound like someone that goes around trying to find himself, someone that lives off daddys credit card while he's doing it.  I, on the other hand, adopted six babies when I was 55 y/o.  That's my contribution, what's yours?

Don't question my motives, don't give me that artsy BS, just answer the question if you can.
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DarkPenguin
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« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2007, 11:26:52 PM »
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Alexis my child, you sound like someone that goes around trying to find himself, someone that lives off daddys credit card while he's doing it.  I, on the other hand, adopted six babies when I was 55 y/o.  That's my contribution, what's yours?

Don't question my motives, don't give me that artsy BS, just answer the question if you can.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I'm trying to understand this.  Are you saying that you have trouble with composition and that your solution to this is to take a massively detailed wide angle shot that you can crop willy nilly and still get a big print?

Certainly thinking outside the box.  You'll have to forgive Alexis for not being so visionary and going the more traditional route of suggesting that if you have trouble with composition you take the time to learn it.

Anyway, to take a shot at answering your question.  No, not really.  Unless of course you're a rover on Mars in which case it makes a great deal of sense but if you're on earth and in control of the camera one might go with the heretical idea of actually framing the image at the time of capture.  (Or at least get close.)

Alternately MR said in the What's New that he'll be reviewing one of these ...

[a href=\"http://www.roundshot.ch/xml_1/internet/de/application/d438/d854/f443.cfm]http://www.roundshot.ch/xml_1/internet/de/...8/d854/f443.cfm[/url]

Sounds perfect.
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marcmccalmont
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« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2007, 12:18:38 AM »
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Quote from: wmchauncey,Jun 19 2007, 05:03 PM
Alexis my child, you sound like someone that goes around trying to find himself, someone that lives off daddys credit card while he's doing it.  I, on the other hand, adopted six babies when I was 55 y/o.  That's my contribution, what's yours?

“My child” not a very mature response from a "senior citizen".
Using a wide angle lens will only make cropping your image worse not better.
To specifically answer your question you are on the wrong track (only my opinion)
 learning composition would pay dividends if you have the innate ability. My dad always had a dark room, a dual lens reflex Rolie and a formal education in photography. My mom would go on a trip with a point and shoot Nikon and would comeback with stunning compositions, my dad would return with some good but not stunning shots. My conclusion is you either have an eye for composition or you don’t. The web sites that Alexis was kind enough to give you might be a good place to start. I would suggest a zoom telephoto lens, framing the composition in the view finder then zoom out a bit to give you room to crop a final  composition without losing a lot of pixels. I find my self composing a bit too tight and have to force myself to add some area around the subject. The camera doesn't take the picture you do. (if thats not too artsy for you)
Marc
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Marc McCalmont
wmchauncey
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« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2007, 08:38:32 AM »
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Quote from: marcmccalmont,Jun 20 2007, 01:18 AM
Quote from: wmchauncey,Jun 19 2007, 05:03 PM
Alexis my child, you sound like someone that goes around trying to find himself, someone that lives off daddys credit card while he's doing it.  I, on the other hand, adopted six babies when I was 55 y/o.  That's my contribution, what's yours?

“My child” not a very mature response from a "senior citizen".
Using a wide angle lens will only make cropping your image worse not better.
To specifically answer your question you are on the wrong track (only my opinion)
 learning composition would pay dividends if you have the innate ability. My dad always had a dark room, a dual lens reflex Rolie and a formal education in photography. My mom would go on a trip with a point and shoot Nikon and would comeback with stunning compositions, my dad would return with some good but not stunning shots. My conclusion is you either have an eye for composition or you don’t. The web sites that Alexis was kind enough to give you might be a good place to start. I would suggest a zoom telephoto lens, framing the composition in the view finder then zoom out a bit to give you room to crop a final  composition without losing a lot of pixels. I find my self composing a bit too tight and have to force myself to add some area around the subject. The camera doesn't take the picture you do. (if thats not too artsy for you)
Marc
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Marc, most of your responce was on target.  When you talked of your father and his not having an "eye for composition" in spite of his educational background was an astute observation.  One either has the genes or doesn't.  Count me in the doesn't catagory.  

I jumped Alexis' case after reading his response and looking at his bio, his assumption that this skill was something that could be learned was an example of his being narrow and shortsighted.  At his age, he should know better

Your suggestion on using the telephoto lens and zooming out is a viable technique that I will use.  But your still left with my origional problem, croping a limited pixel count.  Using my technique (taking multiple images) would allow me to start with a higher pixel count.  You can crop more from a huge image than from a smaller one.  That's my reasoning.

thanks for your input.
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DarkPenguin
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« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2007, 10:03:19 AM »
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You can certainly learn the basics.  You can go a long way with the rule of thirds alone.

Cropping won't save you.  There is more to composition than that.  A shot that needs to be taken on your belly can't be taken standing and cropped into submission.

Good luck.
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wmchauncey
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« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2007, 10:41:30 AM »
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You can certainly learn the basics.  You can go a long way with the rule of thirds alone.

Cropping won't save you.  There is more to composition than that.  A shot that needs to be taken on your belly can't be taken standing and cropped into submission.

Good luck.
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Your correct, and I do use the rule of thirds.  But I'm more interested in "devine proportions" and I find that easier to compose in PS than in the field.
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The things you do for yourself die with you, the things you do for others live forever.
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jani
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« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2007, 04:23:25 PM »
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First off, I'd like to say that I disagree with the notion that composition can't be learned. It's definitely not something you just "get" or "don't get", with experience comes vision.

Quote
Your correct, and I do use the rule of thirds.  But I'm more interested in "devine proportions" and I find that easier to compose in PS than in the field.

I suggest that you take the time to thoroughly analyze your photographs and see if there's a pattern to how you crop. When you next are in the field, you try to recognize the similar situations, and then use the appropriate lens for what would have been the crop.

If it's too hard to visualize still, try bringing a laptop to the field and shoot in tethered mode; that makes the learning experience more direct, even if it requires good weather conditions.

When I started with landscapes, I often found myself in the same situation; I thought that landscapes were about wide angles and capturing the huge vistas, but frequently found myself looking at smaller parts of the image and then cropping. So I changed my tactics, I went for the telephoto approach, trying to find smaller angles of view that might contain something interesting. I needed a bit more planning and thinking, but it paid off compared to the previous approach.

Perhaps this works for you, perhaps not. Still, I tink the best way to learn is to try and fail, study the mistakes, and try again.

And age doesn't come into it at all.
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Alexis Alvarez
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« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2007, 06:06:25 PM »
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Dear WMChauncey,

I'm neither a he nor a child, nor do I live off anyone's credit cards -- in fact, my husband has many times lived off mine.

Vision and talent are kind of necessary to an artist, and I have actually worked and studied my ass off to refine my talent so that I could  implement that vision and become a photographer.

I was trying to be nice in my original post, but that was obviously unwarranted.  So here's my advice:  You're new to photography and you have trouble with composition -- so if you're interested in actually accomplishing something worthwhile, perhaps you should study composition and learn how to take the picture right in the first place.  You might actually learn what you're doing wrong to begin with.  But perhaps you're not interested in making the effort to learn?    

And by the way a skill IS something you learn -- talent is not!  I was giving you the benefit of the doubt in not questioning whether you had any talent, because I've been in classes and workshops with people who couldn't take a photo worth a damn, and who by the end of the semester were able to take some pretty awesome pictures simply because they made the effort.

Finally, at my age I should know better than to even respond to an idiot who jumps on peoples' cases when he doesn't get exactly what he wants, but I'm in a bit of a mood today, and besides you deserve it.

I want to thank Marc for coming to my defense; it was probably wasted, but I do appreciate the effort.

Y'all have a nice photographic day! (Said with all the South Bronx sarcasm -- er, charm -- I can muster on a typically disgustingly muggy Tokyo day.)
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wmchauncey
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« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2007, 08:35:35 PM »
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Dear WMChauncey,

I'm neither a he nor a child, nor do I live off anyone's credit cards -- in fact, my husband has many times lived off mine.

Vision and talent are kind of necessary to an artist, and I have actually worked and studied my ass off to refine my talent so that I could  implement that vision and become a photographer.

I was trying to be nice in my original post, but that was obviously unwarranted.  So here's my advice:  You're new to photography and you have trouble with composition -- so if you're interested in actually accomplishing something worthwhile, perhaps you should study composition and learn how to take the picture right in the first place.  You might actually learn what you're doing wrong to begin with.  But perhaps you're not interested in making the effort to learn?   

And by the way a skill IS something you learn -- talent is not!  I was giving you the benefit of the doubt in not questioning whether you had any talent, because I've been in classes and workshops with people who couldn't take a photo worth a damn, and who by the end of the semester were able to take some pretty awesome pictures simply because they made the effort.

Finally, at my age I should know better than to even respond to an idiot who jumps on peoples' cases when he doesn't get exactly what he wants, but I'm in a bit of a mood today, and besides you deserve it.

I want to thank Marc for coming to my defense; it was probably wasted, but I do appreciate the effort.

Y'all have a nice photographic day! (Said with all the South Bronx sarcasm -- er, charm -- I can muster on a typically disgustingly muggy Tokyo day.)
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Alexis, you do protest to much.  

When you say that I've got no talent your wrong, my talent lies in areas that truely mean something, saving lives in the operating room, adopting and loving and caring for my children.  

I have no creative talent, nor do I play for the Lakers.  Don't have the genes.  What I do isn't meant to be art,  It's a hobby and as such I surely don't care if my images "say" anything, nor do I care for those who suggest they should.  So get rid of the pompus attitude.

Read my first post and decide for youself if your response answered my question
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The things you do for yourself die with you, the things you do for others live forever.
A man's worth should be judged, not when he basks in the sun, but how he faces the storm.

My stuff...http://1x.com/member/chauncey43
DarkPenguin
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« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2007, 08:57:01 PM »
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The people at www.dpreview.com will be able to answer all your questions.
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wmchauncey
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« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2007, 09:57:57 PM »
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The people at www.dpreview.com will be able to answer all your questions.
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Will check, thanks a lot.  NAPP helps a lot too.
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The things you do for yourself die with you, the things you do for others live forever.
A man's worth should be judged, not when he basks in the sun, but how he faces the storm.

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Ray
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« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2007, 10:55:28 PM »
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I'll attempt to give the answer that wmchauncey is looking for.

All cropping reduces the potential resolution on the print. All wide-angle lenses reduce the potential resolution of specific features on the sensor.

When taking any shot from a given position, the trade-offs are; fewer features with greater resolution, more features with less resolution, assuming one is using the same camera and assuming you have a choice of lenses.

This is basically one of the reasons why some photographers opt for a larger format camera.

To make the most of your camera, whatever its pixel count, you should try to select the appropriate lens for the subject (composition) in order to reduce cropping to a minimum.

The necessity for cropping should only arise when the aspect ratio of your composition differs from the aspect ratio of your sensor.

Zoom lenses are popular because they allow a more precise match which results in less drastic cropping.

On my 12.8mp 5D, with just 3 lenses and a 1.4x converter, I have a continuous focal length ranging from 15mm to 560mm. (If only that applied to the rest of my anatomy. Okay! Only joking. Please don't ban me   ). I'm rarely stuck for an appropriate lens, although, of course, I would like to extend that range beyond 560mm if it were affordable and pratical regarding weight considerations.

Extending the range wider than 15mm could also be useful, but is also problematic for reason stated above. The greater the number of features, the lower the resolution of those features.

In situations where extremely wide panoramas are sought, which would involve heavy cropping of the height of the image, it's better to use a good stitching program like Autopano Pro, which can often produce perfect stitches of hand-held shots.

Have I answered all your questions, wmchauncey?
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Slobodan Blagojevic
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« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2007, 11:06:27 PM »
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... An alternative would be to take many images, photomerge them, then crop to you hearts content.  Is my theory sound?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=123847\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Your theory is absolutely sound! You might be new to photography, but your ability to grasp intuitively the very basis of it is way too spooky. Yes, indeed, that is how photography works: photographers take many images (using their eyes), photomerge them (using their brains), then crop (using their talents)... and all that even before pressing the shutter.
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Slobodan

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wmchauncey
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« Reply #15 on: June 21, 2007, 12:11:15 PM »
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Ray, the only reason I posted my question is that CS3 has a tremendous "photomerge" as part of their ACR.  It is hard to believe even when you break the tripod and camera settings rule.  You did however answer my question.

Slobodan, You humble me sir.  It's just because of my other responsibilites, I must therfore change the order in which I do things.  I take many images with the eyes and shutter, then do the rest of it on my monitor. And maybe someday, if I'm lucky my road will enable me to merge (really bad pun) with your road.

Thank you gentlemen
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Alexis Alvarez
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« Reply #16 on: June 21, 2007, 07:22:46 PM »
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Protest too much? You are right -- I shouldn't have bothered responding to your snide remarks in the first place.  But I am also not the one who wrote (in response to a pretty innocuous post) about saving lives and my "contribution" to the world.  But I'm the pompous one, eh?

Whether you have the talent or not, I have no idea.  Perhaps YOU should look at both of my posts, and read more carefully?  It seems you have completely misread/disliked my original response and/or somehow just have a problem with me, because other posters made similar recommendations, but they were not subject to the same snide condescension.  

But please accept my apologies, if I somehow offended you with what what seems a somewhat earnest and innocuous original response.

I promise I won't be making any more comments after this, so you can have the last word.

And I apologize to the other posters as well -- I do have a thing about fairness that needs serious curbing.

aa
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Ray
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« Reply #17 on: June 21, 2007, 07:46:01 PM »
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Ray, the only reason I posted my question is that CS3 has a tremendous "photomerge" as part of their ACR. 
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=124198\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

It does, and not only for RAW images. But Autopano Pro is even better, if you adjust the 'settings' to maximum quality.

I've often felt constrained when taking photos for stitching when I haven't had a tripod at hand, but on my next photographic trip I shall have less hesitation.
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